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Old 01-14-2016   #151
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

The world is round, doesn't matter if you sail from west to east or vice versa, you will still circumnavigate the globe . It doesn't matter what you do first, in any case to start with you will be going back and forth between them, even after you have set TA and EQ.

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Old 01-14-2016   #152
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
The world is round, doesn't matter if you sail from west to east or vice versa, you will still circumnavigate the globe . It doesn't matter what you do first, in any case to start with you will be going back and forth between them, even after you have set TA and EQ.
Yup, that's been my experience. In the beginning there can be a lot of back and forth until a good formula is figured out. But once crossovers and phase / TA have been pretty well established for the install its pretty much all EQ from there. Maybe with minor tweaks to TA.
But there have been more than a few times that after all that I want to go back and change crossover points. Then it's starting the process over but still much easier than the first time because things are still within the ballpark.
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Old 01-14-2016   #153
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

Yeah individual driver EQ first then ta then overall system curve EQ (what you do to one side match it on the other if you don't have ability to do input and output eq)

And yes, your likely going to go back and readjust ta slightly

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Old 01-14-2016   #154
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

The tuning technique I used before Finals was to do crossovers first (in REW), then EQ individual drivers for good left/right balance (in REW), then do time alignment (by ear), and then do minor EQ for tonality (by ear) and a final REW look for visual confirmation.


Crossovers affect phase. EQ affects phase, too. That's why I chose to do TA last.


For my time alignment, I created a kick drum loop in Ableton Live on my computer. It does a pretty good job, at least to my ears. It's probably because of my years of DJing that I am just very used to time aligning drum sounds. That's what beatmatching records is all about.



However, for 2016 I'm going to be trying to switch up the order of operations in the tuning process. I'll probably be doing TA first, then crossovers, then EQ, and then..... something else.

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Old 01-14-2016   #155
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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For my time alignment, I created a kick drum loop in Ableton Live on my computer. It does a pretty good job, at least to my ears. It's probably because of my years of DJing that I am just very used to time aligning drum sounds. That's what beatmatching records is all about.
Kick drum loop.. I found one somewhere but if you're willing to share I'm sure I'd love it. I also use a track I found called "polarity pulse" which is simply a click-track of sorts. When it's nailed, the drivers disappear and it's like someone rapping a screwdriver handle dead center on your windshield.

At this stage in a new tune, I need to do ear-EQ work I think next with 1/3 octave noise tracks to see where any image shifting is happening between sides. Maybe it'll help further balance out and narrow in the center further than FR-matching the sides initially. That's the stuff with EQ I guess you can't do with a mic and REW.. Where ears become the tool.

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Old 01-14-2016   #156
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Default The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

John, speaking of overall tuning I stumbled through the playlists on the phone and gave some 1/3 octave pink noise a try to see where the stage image floats.

Though this tune is only TA and individual driver EQ, done to match sides to a curve, which did a decent job, the noise tracks showed the center dancing all over in a few spots. So the sides are only partially balanced. Thus I've found my ghosting image issue from the last NCSQ meet that absolutely perturbed me. How we get better, right?

Until I measure sides again I speculate this is due to constructive and destructive stuff going on between sides from existing filters applied, where areas have phase issue and also reflection as well. Lest I forget this is tuning in a glass and plastic fishbowl.

So for the crowd here I guess the prudent course of action is Kyle Ragsdale's method from his EQ by ear YouTube video, applying cuts in those areas to center up those problem regions. Basically manually steering the image back in those areas.

I don't have the vocabulary for this.. Group delay maybe? But I guess due in small or large part from the EQ FIR filters already applied.

Just thought I'd share.

John I like how you put it to me on Facebook. The struggle is real.


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Old 01-14-2016   #157
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

I personally do individual drivers level matching, individual EQ, then system XO followed by rough/measured TA. Then repeat the same by ears to verify.

The key is in what to listen for and the devil is in the details. The sequence will be back and forth.

When I started out, the first thing I did was XO. Then TA with EQ last.

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Old 01-15-2016   #158
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

My 2cents.....

This thread at its beginning discusses how time and volume both affect perception (ITD and IID). So.....if you t/a matching drivers (e.g., the mid one side to the mid on the other) by ear (e.g., adjust t/a of one mid) so that the pink noise in the focus under the rearview before level matching, you are only considering the time effects. When the volume of each is matched (I use an RTA on my phone or REW if my friend is available) from the driver seat, that matching will then change the location of where pink noise is centered and t/a is done again.

If volume (e.g., level) is matched first, that is done independent of t/a. volume is volume and as each driver is done by itself, it is independent of arrival times (e.g., level matching is not affected by t/a). Once the levels are matched, then the t/a is done and 2 rather than 3 steps are needed.

Now, im sure I missed something here and am actually looking for criticism as to what it is.

Maybe my thoughts are only relevant where ITD and IID are both present (e.g., around 1khz). Actually, looking back at the start of this thread is informative in that levels may only really matter for tweeters (see post 13).

Thanks for advice, I just have theories and only 2 builds of experience so looking for the those with more to set me right!

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Old 01-15-2016   #159
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Default The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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Originally Posted by mbradlawrence View Post
My 2cents.....



This thread at its beginning discusses how time and volume both affect perception (ITD and IID). So.....if you t/a matching drivers (e.g., the mid one side to the mid on the other) by ear (e.g., adjust t/a of one mid) so that the pink noise in the focus under the rearview before level matching, you are only considering the time effects. When the volume of each is matched (I use an RTA on my phone or REW if my friend is available) from the driver seat, that matching will then change the location of where pink noise is centered and t/a is done again.



If volume (e.g., level) is matched first, that is done independent of t/a. volume is volume and as each driver is done by itself, it is independent of arrival times (e.g., level matching is not affected by t/a). Once the levels are matched, then the t/a is done and 2 rather than 3 steps are needed.



Now, im sure I missed something here and am actually looking for criticism as to what it is.



Maybe my thoughts are only relevant where ITD and IID are both present (e.g., around 1khz). Actually, looking back at the start of this thread is informative in that levels may only really matter for tweeters (see post 13).



Thanks for advice, I just have theories and only 2 builds of experience so looking for the those with more to set me right!

That is essentially why I didn't do the TA by ear at the beginning, because EQ/Levels can affect the left right balance and shift an image out of center. By matching the speakers first with EQ, you are effectively removing that potential skew in the results from intensity differences. Like you said, fewer steps.

IID/ITD ranges are not brick walls. They overlap like a crossover. So even though a midbass might be ITD dominated, there can still be an IID influence.

Now, if we are talking about time alignment by more scientific means like IR, and we are only interested in arrival time then it's inconsequential if the levels are matched. Arrival time is arrival time to a computer. It doesn't care about the psychoacoustic sod center image location.


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Old 01-27-2016   #160
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality: Advice Based on My Trials and Tribulations

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Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
Setting Gains:


Intro:
  • Setting amplifier gains can be as complicated as using an oscilloscope with a dummy load or simply using a $10 digital multimeter (DMM) and Ohm’s Law. A scope will let you know when the output signal is clipping (distorting). The DMM method assumes you know at what voltage for a given load the output signal will clip. I will discuss the latter.
  • Since most (brand-name) amplifiers will do their rated, continuous power per spec, all you need is to connect the multimeter to the speaker output of the amplifier and raise the gain until you achieve the required output voltage while playing a tone through your cd player
    • Ohm’s law is used to determine amplifier output voltage. An online calculator can be found here: Ohm's Law Calculator
    • Use an attenuated tone, such as -10dB or -5dB as this will allow additional volume for ‘quiet’ tracks. 0dB tones may be used in lieu of attenuated tones IF you listen to heavily compressed music.
    • Tones can be downloaded here: Realm of Excursion
  • The tone should be in the bandpass of what you are setting the gain for. For example:
    • If you are setting subwoofer amp gains, use a 40hz tone.
    • If you are setting midrange amp gains, use a 1khz tone.

Setting gains with a DMM:
  • Here is a quick guide to properly setting your system gains using nothing more than a DMM.
  • Reset all your cd player DSP features, balance, fader, etc to ‘default’.
  • Disconnect all speakers to keep from damaging them (and your hearing).
  • We will assume your cd player puts out clean, undistorted signal at near maximum. Play your tone (-10dB suggested) and increase the headunit volume to a click or two below max.
  • Knowing the amps’ rated power at a given load (ohm) obtained from manufacturer’s spec (assuming they are a reputable brand), use Ohm’s law to determine voltage needed.
  • For example, with a 4 ohm load and 100wRMS rating, the output voltage should be 20VRMS.
  • Set the DMM to “VAC”, which is AC Voltage.
  • Connect the leads of the DMM to the amp’s appropriate speaker output and increase the amp gain until you achieve this voltage
  • Repeat for each channel.
You’ve now set up your system to maximize output and performance with a wide variety of music.
Keep in mind, when level matching, you can use your decrease amp gains as opposed to decreasing output level on your DSP. Though, I choose to maximize the gain structure up the chain as much as possible and make adjustments at one place (such as a DSP) just to keep things simple.
Okay, here's a newbie question:
Let's assume that my DSP doesn't put out a clean signal near maximum (0db on my H800). Let's say 1k tone clips at -22db setting on the dial (running through digital optical via AirPlay, which I do assume to not clip at maximum). Higher tones clip down to -25db. So let's be safe and say that max unclipped signal is -25db.
This is the DSP volume level that I should be setting amp gains to with a -10db 1K tone?

And for tweeters, I should be using something more like 4K tone, right? The h800 won't let me lower the tweeter crossover below 1K, and it seems that being more into the range it will be playing is better to test than right at the crossover point, no? (generally have HP at 2.2K 4th order).

Mainly asking because I set the gains using -10db tones with DSP level at -0db, and had to turn the midbass amp down to about 1/3 to get 21V (output on amp is 115W @ 4ohm). It sounded like dogs**t, distorting the top end so much it was unbearable. It's only listenable with the volume (DSP) set to <-20db, which makes me think is due to signal clipping. At that level, you can carry out a conversation above the music, it's so low...

Any advice welcome.

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Old 01-27-2016   #161
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality: Advice Based on My Trials and Tribulations

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Originally Posted by Ainuke View Post
Okay, here's a newbie question:
Let's assume that my DSP doesn't put out a clean signal near maximum (0db on my H800). Let's say 1k tone clips at -22db setting on the dial (running through digital optical via AirPlay, which I do assume to not clip at maximum). Higher tones clip down to -25db. So let's be safe and say that max unclipped signal is -25db.
This is the DSP volume level that I should be setting amp gains to with a -10db 1K tone?

And for tweeters, I should be using something more like 4K tone, right? The h800 won't let me lower the tweeter crossover below 1K, and it seems that being more into the range it will be playing is better to test than right at the crossover point, no? (generally have HP at 2.2K 4th order).

Mainly asking because I set the gains using -10db tones with DSP level at -0db, and had to turn the midbass amp down to about 1/3 to get 21V (output on amp is 115W @ 4ohm). It sounded like dogs**t, distorting the top end so much it was unbearable. It's only listenable with the volume (DSP) set to <-20db, which makes me think is due to signal clipping. At that level, you can carry out a conversation above the music, it's so low...

Any advice welcome.
Okay, answered my own question.
-10db tone at -25db on the dial doesn't get me anywhere close to 21V on the midbass amp with the gain maxed. The sub amp won't even pretend to want to hit 30v. Even with -1db tone and -15db on the dial, the sub amp gets a bit over 22v with max gain.

However, it does sound awesome now...

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Old 05-27-2016   #162
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

Phenomenal write up!
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Old 06-08-2016   #163
 
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

Thanks for all the information it is greatly appreciated. You did a great job of explaining many of the more complex details as well as the interactions of changes that are made when tuning. Instead of reading countless threads where the replies seem to be the revolving 'my way is better than yours' or 'i can tune a 500 system an it will blow your doors off tuning is all that matters' It's nice to have something meaningful to revisit. Everyone started somewhere it's cool that you took the time to provide an excellent starting point for others.
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Old 01-01-2017   #164
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

Test cd link is bad, looking for 1/3oct correlated pn.

Any chance anyone can help me out?

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Old 01-01-2017   #165
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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Test cd link is bad, looking for 1/3oct correlated pn.

Any chance anyone can help me out?
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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Old 01-01-2017   #167
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Default Re: The Essentials of Sound Quality IMHO

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