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Old 03-23-2006   #1
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Default Designing your own delay circuit

Designing a turn on/off delay circuit is quite simple and will cost you no more than $5 to make. All parts can be picked up from Radio Shack or Fry's if you have them as well as Parts Express. This will cover the mechanical aspects of it - theoretical topics can come later. If you suffer from pops on your amps or any other components, this will help you eliminate it, but it does not work in all cases.

You will need the following parts..

1 12 volt SPDT 30 amp relay
1 NPN Transistor
1 Diode (same one installer uses in alarms)
1 capacitor with either different values of 100uf to 1000uf, polarized electrolytic, 16 volts or higher
1 few small fuse holders (for safety issues)

Start off with your turn on lead or ignition switch from your head unit. Wire in series a diode with the stripe facing towards the amp. (you can put a 1 amp fuse here in case you short out the turn on lead.)

Next, Wire the capacitor after the diode and ground it. The higher the impedance on the capacitor, the longer it'll delay.

After the capacitor, the transistor is straight forward, wire the turn on lead to B, 12 volts to C, then E out to the relay.

For the relay, use 86 as the input from your turn lead lead, and ground 85. Wire 12 volts to 87 (make sure you fuse this) and 30 out to your components. When the coils are energized, 87 and 30 will be connected and will send current to your devices.

I forgot where I found this saved imaged file from, but it's the best one I could find...


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Old 03-23-2006   #2
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Wow, thank you for the tutorial!

A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.
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Old 03-23-2006   #3
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

You can get away with a smaller relay, saving both physical space and current draw through the transistor (due to the coil resistance). Radio Shack carries a 1A and 5A relay and I think a 3A one too. Also, you can probably save space and parts by using a single fuse off the 12vdc source instead of two, as it's completely unnecessary to have to provide 30A to a remote turn-on lead. Generally, you'll be under 1A unless you have more than 10 devices to turn on.
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Old 03-24-2006   #4
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkZ
You can get away with a smaller relay, saving both physical space and current draw through the transistor (due to the coil resistance). Radio Shack carries a 1A and 5A relay and I think a 3A one too. Also, you can probably save space and parts by using a single fuse off the 12vdc source instead of two, as it's completely unnecessary to have to provide 30A to a remote turn-on lead. Generally, you'll be under 1A unless you have more than 10 devices to turn on.
Good point, a smaller relay would do just fine.
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Old 03-24-2006   #5
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Using a TIP dual darlington device you could eliminate the relay too. I think a TIP102, could be wrong.

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Old 03-24-2006   #6
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

D'oh!

I thought (hoped) this would be an explanantion of the very mysterious and fabled mechanical time delay circuit...
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Old 03-26-2006   #7
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

thanks for the tip...

u can do alot of shits with these li'l relays.
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Old 04-17-2006   #8
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

i need some help with this.

I am using my stock GM truck H/U (not Bose). I will have two amps to turn on, and I have been told that the remote Wire will turn on both just fine without a relay, AND I have been told to use a relay. What's the real deal? i am fine with doing all of my install, but this starts to get into confusing electronics for me.

Any and all help is much appreciated.
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Old 04-17-2006   #9
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

^^^^ This circuit would not be needed for you. This circuit is for the situation when you have a turn on or off pop. For you all you would need is the relay. Just Wire 12v constant to 87, ground 85, remote out of HU to 86 and 30 would go to your amps. With a stock head unit I would probably do it to be safe. With aftermarket you can usually do 2 amps safely, 3 amps is hit or miss depending on the HU and draw from the amps and any more than 3 amps I would use a relay.
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Old 04-18-2006   #10
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Amp triggers are voltage sensing designs with a very high input impedance. If it puts out 12V and the wire's not broke then I'm sure the requirements for a relay would be nil. Now if the OP were trying to turn on fans/bling/etc it would be a different story.

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Old 04-18-2006   #11
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Cool. I guess what I wanted to avaoid, was having the turn on Wire work for some time and then burn out the transistor or whatever inside the HU at a later date.

I was thinking about using Navone's solid state switch:
http://www.davidnavone.com/detail.as...T_ID=N-TRIG-LO
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Old 11-24-2006   #12
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

why has noone mentioned wiring a capacitor across the relay coil?

on an unrelated note, does anyone know the ballpark minimum voltage is to hold the coil closed on a standard bosch relay?
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Old 08-16-2007   #13
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

I built one of these to fix a turn on noise from my amp and I'm having a little problem with it. It works fine as a turn off delay but it doesn't delay the turn on at all which is the exact opposite of what I need it to do. Does anyone know how to make one of these that will delay the turn on?
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Old 08-16-2007   #14
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

good thread
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Old 08-17-2007   #15
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca90ss View Post
I built one of these to fix a turn on noise from my amp and I'm having a little problem with it. It works fine as a turn off delay but it doesn't delay the turn on at all which is the exact opposite of what I need it to do. Does anyone know how to make one of these that will delay the turn on?
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Old 08-18-2007   #16
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

not the best circuit, but it does remove a resistor.

the more common way to do this is with a common emitter amplifier, or a common source amplifier.

the more common delay on/off will be based on the attached pic.

in this circuit, at turn on, C1 is charge via R2. if optional diode D2 is installed, then C1 is charged by R4||R2. This allows inrush limiting if C1 is made large. the D2+R3 parts will cause the relay to turn on fast.

as C1 charges, it will reach the Vth of the MOSFET M1, shortly after, it will be able to turn M1 fully on, and K1 will engage.

When ACC is removed, C1 will discharge through R2+R1, eventually reaching Vth and turning off K1. Again, addition of the D2 diode will allow a faster turn off action.

Turn on and turn off times will not be equal in this circuit because the gate of M1 will turn on around 4V, but will charge to 12V. as such it must discharge 8V to turn off, but only charge 4V to turn on.

Diode D1 is the standard flyback diode designed to allow current flowing in K1 to natually stop flowing, instead of suddenly trying to break the magnetic field and causing high voltage spikes across M1.

this circuit can be simplified, or made more complex to acheive desired results.
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File Type: jpg circuit-relay=delay.jpg (15.8 KB, 442 views)

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Old 08-18-2007   #17
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

for the case of a turn on delay with no turn off delay, i suggest the attached.

when Acc is engaged, the gate of M1 will charge to 12V, and M1 will engage*, but M2's gate is delayed by the time required to charge C1 to Vth through R1. Once M2 starts to conduct, M1 will also turn on, and K1 will engage.

when Acc is disengaged, the gate of M2 will stay high, discharging through R1+R2. M1's gate will quickly drop below Vth if R1 is much larger then R2. this will quickly turn the circuit off.

because this circuit uses mosfets, and is a common source design, the transistors will dissipate very little heat.


suggest making Vcc*R2/(R1+R2) < Vth, which means
Vcc/Vth < R1/R2 + 1
or:
R1 > R2*(Vcc/Vth - 1)

suggest making R2 10kohm. if a 2n7000 is used, Vth will be around 2V. meaning giving R1 > 10k(12/2 - 1), R1 >50k.

time delay will be based on the size of R1 and C1:
Vgs = Vcc - Vcc e^-t/R1C1
for Vgs = Vth
Vth/Vcc = 1 - e^-t/R1C1
1 - Vth/Vcc = e^-t/R1C1
ln(1-Vth/Vcc) = -t/R1C1
t = -R1*C1*ln(1-Vth/Vcc)

since we know R1 > 50k:
C1 > -t/(R1*ln(1-Vth/Vcc))

for a sample 1 second delay:
C1 > -1/(50k*ln(1-2/12))
C1 > 109uF

Hmm, 109uF is attainable, but if I wanted say, 60 seconds of delay, this would not bode well, and I'd be forced to raise R1, which i can do without much penelty.


* rather will be engageable.


edit -- and if you wanted a turn off delay with minimal turn on delay, you could place M1, M2 in parallel instead of series.

Keep in mind, that this circuit should not be turned on/off at a high rate, as C1 will need to discharge. for such apps, a speedup diode as shown above would be needed to clear C1 at a faster rate. if a short turn off delay is acceptable, M1 might be omitted and the speedup diode used.
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Last edited by thechris; 08-18-2007 at 02:22 PM..
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Old 08-30-2007   #18
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Forgive my noob-ness.... but what is the purpose of this circuit?
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Old 08-30-2007   #19
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

to eliminate turn off pops or turn on pops that are caused by an entire series of equipment that powers on in a "less than optimal" order.

not uncommon in complex systems.
http://www.selectronic.fr/article.as...er=70.2750-5US

of course, why should anyone pay $200 euro when a creative installer can buy $5 worth of parts above (and probably has 90% of the parts laying around for free anyways) for each piece of gear they have and start swapping out caps for timing till they have the order right anyways?

And even farther, chances are good that there are only gonna be two pieces of gear in the Car that "fight" over turn on and turn off speed anyways (one signal processor, and all amps lumped together), requiring only one circuit. But again, multiples are five bucks of parts. max.
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Old 08-30-2007   #20
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

Here is a Time Constant calculator for figuring out resistors and caps on a timed turn on delay.

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculator...lculator.phtml


A TIP102 would work for use without a Relay. Just remember to use a heatsink.



Turn off delay is a little more complex. The best I ever found is to use an SCR, cap, Darlington and some resistors.

Remember to always use a Diode across all relays to prevent the contacts from burning.

I'll post the circuits I use when I find them.
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Old 08-31-2007   #21
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

question:

why should I make these more and more complex turn off delay circuits if the one in post #1 works?
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Old 09-03-2007   #22
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

the first post doesn't have a well defined turn on delay. also, a smaller transistor can be used in the common emitter configurations I have listed. The common collector setup will discharge the cap through the base of the transistor and the reflected load. this provides relatively poor tolerance for the delay as the delay is based on the current gain of the part (which changes over temp and production by a large amount). further, the turn off switching of the transistor will fall slowly from 12V to 0V. in the common emitter configs, there will be a delay after which a fast transition from 12V to 0V will occur. This reduces the Power dissipation of the part as well. the common emitter also has better low-voltage characteristics. it provides within 0.25V of the supply voltage to the coil. the circuit in post 1 provides within 1.5V of the supply voltage to the coil.

In industry, you will see the common emitter config used -- better control, better switched edge, lower losses, lower drop out.

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Old 09-03-2007   #23
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

and will the regular audio hobbyist notice any of these improvements?
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Old 09-03-2007   #24
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

if they want a turn on delay or no turn off delay, yes.

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Old 07-25-2008   #25
 
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Default Re: Designing your own delay circuit

I'm a newbie and I'm going to try to resurrect this thread, first by asking a few questions?

1. How important is the thumpy thing?
2. Is it true that no one seems to know how to fix it?
3. Is there a device that works?
4. No one seems to understand the problem?
5. No one seems to understand the automotive environment.

I'll attack (4) for a bit:

Problem: Slow turn-on and fast turn-off required for anti-thump

Remote Lead: Some remote leads are actually regulated outputs for antennae preamps. Very tough to use as a remote line because it tends to turn off slowly. Most are relay based. Some may not have the drive (Fan out) to drive all the other devices.

Accessory Power: This one is a big gotcha. It goes through an ON/(OFF)/ON sequrnce when you start the car. The (OFF) is the off that occurs when the starter engages. When the starter engages the accessories turn off. Delay circuit needs an extremely fast reset time.

Timing ckt: Must be at t=0 when entering vehicle. Must reset quickly to t=0 when starter is turning. Once delay has elapsed, the timing circuit must again be ready for the next t=0 event.

Protection: There are +50 and -200 V spikes from the alternator. You need to take steps to protect against that.

Delay time: 0-4 seconds sounds reasonable

Status: Device should have a status LED

Turn-off Thump: Is effectively eliminated with Speaker relays. Stubbon cases require muting the input much faster than the Speaker relays.

Turn on thump: Fast reset of the timing circuitry is essential otherwise you'll sometimes get thumping because of the pesky ignition switch. Generally delaying the remote lead works. Sometimes a load resistor must be placed on the remote in, so it will decay rapidly.

Thumping is a fault of some component in the loop The ignition sequence being a troublesome input.

Minimum Design: Accept Remote in, Gnd, and Remote Out. Solid state protected output to 1 Amp, short circuit protected. LED indicator, Adjustable delay.

Design Elements Missing: Independent comparator based trigger, Remote Out comes from Battery Terminal, Relay vs Solid state output. Low voltage drop out.

What would an installer/Doityourselfer be willing to pay for such a device (Delay of the remote signal), if one existed? Speaker relays not included, Fan out relays not included, a 3 terminal device without low voltage drop-out.

Comments anyone?
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