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Old 08-04-2013   #51
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Just to update. I was able to go through all the steps, although I'm still fine tuning for tonality.

And I have to say I'm really happy with the results.

I'm really happy I came across this thread. Thanks for posting!
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Old 09-01-2013   #52
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I just got finished this procedure and all I can say is wow!! Eq is still flat and it never sounded better!! I am in the Car now and I can't stop listening. I did perform time alignment prior to this. Thanks.

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Old 02-28-2014   #53
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Forgive me for resurrecting an older thread, but there is a lot of great info in here and I had a question about tuning with this method and how time alignment would affect things.

I assume that time alignment would affect the acoustic phase for individual speakers, correct? If so, when in this procedure would it be best to set the time alignment?
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Old 11-16-2014   #54
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I also want to apologize in advance for bumping an old thread. I was looking for a way to adjust phase prior to MS-8 calibration to give the processor an "easier" task. I have to say I tried using this method and was not able to hear any difference when only the tweeters, mids and woofers were playing, whether the polarity of one of the drivers was reversed or not. Sine the midbass drivers are under the seats, and only play to 120Hz anyway, there really was no "image" to make out at all. The tweeters and mids both had the female singer playing exactly at the respective driver side speaker, no matter what the polarity. Not sure why but I tried several times. Any ideas?
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Old 11-16-2014   #55
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I've tuned several vehicles and have only ran into what you described once.
The vehicle had Speaker wiring issues, several Speaker Wire splices and solder joints with both active and passive crossovers.

I cleaned up the wiring, removed all splices, confirmed polarity and confirmed solder joint integrity at the passive crossovers.

Once that was done the vehicle would focus.

Nevertheless, it's my understanding that the MS8 wants the enter system to be wired in polarity.

I would run an in phase/out of phase track and note if the focus is the same in phase as out of phase. If so, given you can't change the focus by changing polarity, I would verify the system is wired properly.
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Old 11-17-2014   #56
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Thanks for your answer. I am fairly certain my wiring is sound. I should say that I confirmed polarities are correct with the JL audio app on the iPhone. Ran the MS-8 calibration and it sounded terrible. I flipped Polarity on the left side tweeter and midbass, recalibrated and the results are very satisfactory. However I am concerned that something is still off, because I could not get this method to work.

You kind of lost me in the last paragraph, but I will try to find such a track and report back. Any idea where I can find a track like this on the Internet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2DEEP2 View Post
I've tuned several vehicles and have only ran into what you described once.
The vehicle had Speaker wiring issues, several Speaker Wire splices and solder joints with both active and passive crossovers.

I cleaned up the wiring, removed all splices, confirmed polarity and confirmed solder joint integrity at the passive crossovers.

Once that was done the vehicle would focus.

Nevertheless, it's my understanding that the MS8 wants the enter system to be wired in polarity.

I would run an in phase/out of phase track and note if the focus is the same in phase as out of phase. If so, given you can't change the focus by changing polarity, I would verify the system is wired properly.
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Old 11-17-2014   #57
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I have tried using a polarity checker and phase pulse test track before, and I have to admit that the results were not exactly so easy to determine. Getting the pulses to actually register consistently in the correct direction was difficult. Sometimes I would get a couple of cycles of + + + - to show correctly, but then it would start to read differently and make me question it.

Ultimately, I just gave up and used a 9 volt battery on my subs and midbass to visually confirm the direction of the Speaker cone movement. Then I connected the 9 volt battery to the Speaker Wire and used a multimeter to confirm positive and negative leads in the cable run.

I have had mixed success using REW and impulse response measurements to determine phase angle. I say mixed because I had one day where everything measured well and I got good results for phase. But most of the time it's very hard to get clean phase measurements inside a car. There are so many reflections that it usually muddies up the readings.

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Old 11-17-2014   #58
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Thanks for your answer. I am fairly certain my wiring is sound.
Please don't be offended, but the guy with the splices and poor solder joints told me "my wiring is sound". :-D

After I spent hours uninstalling his wiring and tracing it from head unit to speaker, several issues...

I'm not saying yours is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I should say that I confirmed polarities are correct with the JL audio app on the iPhone. Ran the MS-8 calibration and it sounded terrible. I flipped Polarity on the left side tweeter and midbass, recalibrated and the results are very satisfactory.
That's not how I read your original post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I have to say I tried using this method and was not able to hear any difference when only the tweeters, mids and woofers were playing, whether the polarity of one of the drivers was reversed or not.
If you retuned with the MS8, you should not hear any different between a system wired in absolute phase and one that is not. Although some guys that are better tuners than I would say absolute phase is how a vehicle should be wired with DSP TA/phase correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
However I am concerned that something is still off, because I could not get this method to work.

You kind of lost me in the last paragraph, but I will try to find such a track and report back. Any idea where I can find a track like this on the Internet?
subterFuse is correct, you could have physical boundary issues (early reflections) in your Car still creating phase issues.

Recordings I like to use for in phase/out of phase are IASCA Setup CD, Autosound 2000 CDs, Chesky Setup CD or XLO Reference Recordings CD.

You may be able to purchase Chesky or XLO as an online down load.
You will have to do a search to find any of the IASCA or Autosound 2000 CD's.

XLO, which is intended for home systems, has several phase tracks and states to make your system sound as out of phase as possible by moving your speakers while playing the out of phase track. The more out of phase you get the system while playing an out of phase track, the more focus you will have when playing an in phase track.

In that we can't just move speakers in a car, you have to change the boundaries and/or your listening position.
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Old 11-17-2014   #59
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

What I posted originally were the results without the MS-8 tune (processing turned off). Then when I did the auto-tune, it sounded horrible. Then I flipped polarities of driver side tweeter and mid-bass, retuned the MS-8, and it sounded great. Make sense?

Tonight I played pink (or white) noise from the Focal CD #2, track 3, which goes back and forth between in and out of phase. In phase sounds centered. Out of phase sounds scattered. So I guess that is a good sign. Then I turned MS-8 processing off and both in and out of phase white noise was playing near the sail panel on the driver side. I actually detected a little more of a "fullness" with the out of phase noise, and it was maybe an inch further to the right than the in phase noise, which was a little less full. Not sure how else to describe it. The differences were very small.
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Old 07-11-2015   #60
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I know I know old thread but such good shit right here. It's like my bible for audio.

But theseee go to 11!!!
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Old 07-11-2015   #61
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Great starting point
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Old 07-12-2015   #62
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I'm about to use this now with my 3SIXTY.3, but all this polarity is a bit confusing...I'm getting the impression people want to take the speakers out of normal polarity???or?

Doesn't everyone install and test with a battery to check before wiring?

OK, outside I go, and maybe reading it a few times will set me straight.
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Old 07-12-2015   #63
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Ok, spent some time with this. I didn't
Do any polarity changes like this suggests, but I did do most other steps.

I wasn't sure what he means by "centered sounds". I guess I had a hard time, but he was on the vocals, so I did that.

Also, I don't think all this polarity play necessary, I thought you can check if the right wires are used with battery, speakers move out, and that's it. How is switching them play into this tuning procedure?Although I do rem something like this 20 years ago

Regardless, my system is sounding much much better, and now I know I can tune more out of it, which at one point I was skeptical of any improvements.
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Old 04-23-2016   #64
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

I was just reviewing this before I go try to tune a friend's car, and saw your post, Phil.

Most people Wire their speakers in mechanical phase (+ to + and - to -) during initial installation.

However, because of various factors (location, reflections, etc.) this may not be in acoustic phase. You may find that by switching one side or the other out of phase from it's counterpart might get the speakers closer to acoustic phase.

In my car, when I played with phasing on my processor, it didn't seem to help...sometimes, I'd go from well focused, but to the left to (after switching one side) to centered, but diffused.

I know it's an old thread, but figured this might help someone who comes across it.

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Old 05-03-2016   #65
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Wow!! Something I wrote about 10 years ago is still going!
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Old 05-03-2016   #66
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Solid advise that works the basics is usually timeless. Well done!

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Old 10-02-2016   #67
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

i dont understand why you would want a Speaker out of phase. you dont do this in home audio or pro audio, but most pro audio is mono. it changes inductance and causes cancellations especially lower frequencies. you will loose bass, mid bass and some lower mid range. and if it sounds decent in the drivers seat with it out of phase then it will have a weird out of phase sound at the center and passengers seat.

to me it is better just to use delay if your trying to get your image centered.
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Old 10-02-2016   #68
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhue73 View Post
i dont understand why you would want a Speaker out of phase. you dont do this in home audio or pro audio, but most pro audio is mono. it changes inductance and causes cancellations especially lower frequencies. you will loose bass, mid bass and some lower mid range. and if it sounds decent in the drivers seat with it out of phase then it will have a weird out of phase sound at the center and passengers seat.



to me it is better just to use delay if your trying to get your image centered.


Correcting phase on a subwoofer using delay is also not ideal because it will cause impulse smearing over time. That's why pro audio DSPs have all pass filters to correct phase without having to invert polarity or use delay.


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Old 10-02-2016   #69
 
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Default Re: A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Correcting phase on a subwoofer using delay is also not ideal because it will cause impulse smearing over time. That's why pro audio DSPs have all pass filters to correct phase without having to invert polarity or use delay.


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the pro audio company i use to work for didnt use a dsp. they used separate analog crossover and eq, for good reason. you dont need a delay in pro audio because of the distance the audience is from the main and subs. we only used a delay for balcony speakers or longer buildings with back speakers.

i dont like using delay on home subs ether. i like my sub or subs upfront close to the mains.
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