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Old 08-21-2008   #51
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Bump for this one as well. It's fallen to the wayside, and is hardly being read anymore.

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Old 09-03-2008   #52
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Minivan,
Do you think is necessary to Build a zobel network for the mids?
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Old 09-03-2008   #53
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by borgs View Post
Minivan,
Do you think is necessary to Build a zobel network for the mids?
I don't generally do Zobels in my networks. Zobels allow you to increase the top end acoustic response of a driver. However, in the case of a 7" mid, using it above 2khz, starts to degrade the off-axis response of the mid, and therefore the overall polar response will suffer for the system as a whole.

So, I like to use the natural roll off of a driver to achieve my acoustical response at a point where I'll get the best polar response, and off-axis response possible.

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Old 09-03-2008   #54
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MJay View Post
There is a ton of great info in this thread. What if anything happens when you cascade crossovers? Example, you use the crossover in the head unit, then the crossover in the amp in the same capacity as the one in the head unit. If you are using hpf on the deck and hpf on the amp. Does this change the slope or the crossover point? I am mostly just curious I don't plan on using this set up.

Jason
Based on what I read from the Car Stereo Cookbook, you'll have change in slope. The slope will be steep than the one set in the HU and amp. I don't remember how to calculate it.
I'm not sure about the crossover point though.

Last edited by cacin; 09-03-2008 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 09-09-2008   #55
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

hi, very helpful thread....
but now i have some quastions (am realy sorry for my english).
i have morel mt 23 tweeters and want ot Build and x-over for them. So, Fs is 950 Hz, it meens it can be saftly crossed at 1900 hz with 2nd order hi pass. Am i right? So, i have formulas to calculate the values for cap and inductord, but cant finde anywer data sheet for my tweeters with impendance at cross frequency. morel provides manual only with "sensitivity Mag" in 0, 30 and 45 dgree. Do anyone knows whats is impendance value for mt 23 at 1900 hz? or maybe anyone knows where to finde info or a link with info how to mesure impendance?
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Old 09-10-2008   #56
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by exonn View Post
hi, very helpful thread....
but now i have some quastions (am realy sorry for my english).
i have morel mt 23 tweeters and want ot Build and x-over for them. So, Fs is 950 Hz, it meens it can be saftly crossed at 1900 hz with 2nd order hi pass. Am i right? So, i have formulas to calculate the values for cap and inductord, but cant finde anywer data sheet for my tweeters with impendance at cross frequency. morel provides manual only with "sensitivity Mag" in 0, 30 and 45 dgree. Do anyone knows whats is impendance value for mt 23 at 1900 hz? or maybe anyone knows where to finde info or a link with info how to mesure impendance?
The only way to know what your impedance measurement for a driver is, is to measure it yourself. The manufacturer can give a good idea, but it's always better to do it your self.

As for crossing at double the Fs, that's a loose rule. Even if the driver can handle that low of a crossover point, doesn't mean you should. Other factors like distortion and Power handling come into play as well.

The Morel MT23 will probably be fine in the 2k range, but there are tweeters, and I think Morel has them as well, that have an Fs of around 500. I'd be VERY cautious about crossing any tweeter over at 1khz. In fact, I probably wouldn't even do it.

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Old 09-11-2008   #57
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

on other forums, i get sugestions to go 1st order and cross my tweets on 5600 hz. And all i need is just one cap of 4.7uf (for one tweeter). Do you think this is good idea?

This is gona be 2 way system. mid bass is from focal 165 access system.

Last edited by exonn; 09-11-2008 at 07:53 AM..
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Old 09-12-2008   #58
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

very informative guys...
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Old 09-12-2008   #59
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by exonn View Post
on other forums, i get sugestions to go 1st order and cross my tweets on 5600 hz. And all i need is just one cap of 4.7uf (for one tweeter). Do you think this is good idea?

This is gona be 2 way system. mid bass is from focal 165 access system.
There aren't many tweeters I would suggest using a 6 db network on unless you're crossing over VERY high. And then, for a 2-way, you're going to have serious problems.

5.6khz is too low. That can be dangerous for a tweeter is you push it hard.

Because Dynaudio does it, doesn't mean that everybody can do it. The Dynaudio tweeter is a very good tweeter.

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Old 09-16-2008   #60
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

MiniVanMan,
Thanks for your ansvers...
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Old 09-16-2008   #61
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

excellent and informative write-up. will save for reference!
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Old 09-28-2008   #62
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Thanks for posting this thread. Tagging for easy reference.
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Old 11-16-2008   #63
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Bump for an awesome thread!
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Old 11-17-2008   #64
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
There aren't many tweeters I would suggest using a 6 db network on unless you're crossing over VERY high. And then, for a 2-way, you're going to have serious problems.

5.6khz is too low. That can be dangerous for a tweeter is you push it hard.

Because Dynaudio does it, doesn't mean that everybody can do it. The Dynaudio tweeter is a very good tweeter.
What's your opinion of the TBI Sound tweeter that comes with a "6.8 UF FILM CAPACITOR (3.5KHZ @4 ohms - 6db/oct)" (from the website: http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_auto_tweet1.asp)?

If you consider 5.6 khz too low, then 3.5 khz seems extremely dangerous, no? Would that not allow alot of "low" (i.e., tweeter-destroying frequencies) in? Or is this a robust tweeter as well...seems sketchy...

But it would be a nice and simple tweeter to add to a driver with natural roll-off (mach5 mli-6 or the seas model???). Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks again for a very informative thread...but it leaves me with more questions. Such as lobing (something Zaph talks about when selecting drivers and optimum crossover points) and how driver spacing plays a part in all of this...

chris

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Old 11-29-2008   #65
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

I have gone into lobing and combing in many other threads to some detail. You'll have to search around. I didn't compile them, and I have no intention of doing another thread like this one. Sorry.

I didn't say you couldn't run a tweeter with a 6db at a lowish crossover point, I just said, it's not a very good idea.

The 6 db crossover is excellent for producing the best Power response at the crossover point of any other filter order. However, with that comes the fact that your driver had better be able to handle that power.

I haven't had the luxury of playing with the TBI tweeter, but I'm pretty sure, they don't want you running 100 watts to that tweeter with only a 6 db filter at 3.5khz. Also, a 6.8 uF capacitor yields a crossover point 5850 hz "electrical", NOT 3.5khz. Acoustically, I don't know. However, I don't know where they came up with 3.5 khz. Even "acoustically" that would be quite a stretch. Most likely, they're compensating for the rising response of the tweeter from Fs, and saying that the 6.8 uF cap "flattens" out the response from 3.5 - 6khz. Still acoustically, the slope would be much higher below 3.5 khz.

They played with some some numbers, which is fine. In the end though, they know better than to give people actual tweeter with inline caps for a 3.5khz, 6 db slope. That's just asking for trouble.

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.

Last edited by MiniVanMan; 11-29-2008 at 02:45 PM..
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Old 11-30-2008   #66
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
I don't generally do Zobels in my networks. Zobels allow you to increase the top end acoustic response of a driver. However, in the case of a 7" mid, using it above 2khz, starts to degrade the off-axis response of the mid, and therefore the overall polar response will suffer for the system as a whole.

So, I like to use the natural roll off of a driver to achieve my acoustical response at a point where I'll get the best polar response, and off-axis response possible.
i had my experiment on zobel network. i agree that zobel is lowering the impedance of speaker.



and this one with zobel



the green and black is just different value of C.

and this is the response of use zobel (black) and no use (green)


use of zobel beside lowering the impedance to Re its also decrease the top end acoustic response of a driver.
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Old 11-30-2008   #67
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Careful, the Zobel doesn't change the impedance of the speaker, it changes the impedance of the amplifier. If the Zobel is calculated precisely, the response of the Speaker shuldn't change, but the impedance the amplifier "sees" will change. The Zobel makes it easier to calculate the required crossover components and that's its main purpose. Simply designing the filter to use the rising impedanace as one part of the passive network will result in a simpler circuit that costs less.

The important response is the measured acoustic response from the combination of drivers connected to the crossover and not the electrical network itself.
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Old 11-30-2008   #68
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Careful, the Zobel doesn't change the impedance of the speaker, it changes the impedance of the amplifier. If the Zobel is calculated precisely, the response of the Speaker shuldn't change, but the impedance the amplifier "sees" will change. The Zobel makes it easier to calculate the required crossover components and that's its main purpose. Simply designing the filter to use the rising impedanace as one part of the passive network will result in a simpler circuit that costs less.

The important response is the measured acoustic response from the combination of drivers connected to the crossover and not the electrical network itself.
Exactly!

If you are resistant to doing complicated calculations yourself, and decide to use a modeling program for your filters, then the Zobel is almost an antiquated network.

When I say "modeling program", I'm not talking about a simple crossover designer where you input a frequency and an impedance then it shoots out some values for capacitors and inductors. I'm talking your Speaker Workshops, SoundEasy, LEAP, etc.

All those programs use the impedance curve, coupled with driver response, to predict the response shape after applying various capacitor and inductor values into your circuit. At that point, it becomes pointless to add a Zobel, as the program will be taking into account the variations in impedance anyway.

Another benefit to going without a Zobel is that it's an easier load on the amplifier. The higher impedance of your mid (in a 2-way generally), will increase the impedance of the system overall at the crossover point, making your amplifier sweat a little less.

However, if you really want extended response from a driver, adding a Zobel is a way to do it. I haven't played with an extended range driver and a Zobel yet, but I would venture to guess that that type of driver could benefit. I could also be totally mistaken.

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.
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Old 11-30-2008   #69
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Careful, the Zobel doesn't change the impedance of the speaker, it changes the impedance of the amplifier. If the Zobel is calculated precisely, the response of the Speaker shuldn't change, but the impedance the amplifier "sees" will change. The Zobel makes it easier to calculate the required crossover components and that's its main purpose. Simply designing the filter to use the rising impedanace as one part of the passive network will result in a simpler circuit that costs less.

The important response is the measured acoustic response from the combination of drivers connected to the crossover and not the electrical network itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
Exactly!

If you are resistant to doing complicated calculations yourself, and decide to use a modeling program for your filters, then the Zobel is almost an antiquated network.

When I say "modeling program", I'm not talking about a simple crossover designer where you input a frequency and an impedance then it shoots out some values for capacitors and inductors. I'm talking your Speaker Workshops, SoundEasy, LEAP, etc.

All those programs use the impedance curve, coupled with driver response, to predict the response shape after applying various capacitor and inductor values into your circuit. At that point, it becomes pointless to add a Zobel, as the program will be taking into account the variations in impedance anyway.

Another benefit to going without a Zobel is that it's an easier load on the amplifier. The higher impedance of your mid (in a 2-way generally), will increase the impedance of the system overall at the crossover point, making your amplifier sweat a little less.

However, if you really want extended response from a driver, adding a Zobel is a way to do it. I haven't played with an extended range driver and a Zobel yet, but I would venture to guess that that type of driver could benefit. I could also be totally mistaken.
thanks Andi and mini

but if don't have any simulation software maybe zobel can give an instant solution, just count the le and re and u are done.

the same driver and the target response 12 db at 2700 hz


just 12db butterworth passive xo without zobel



with zobel



zobel, with and without passive xo the higher frequency is always decrease. so i don't think zobel can extend the response.
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Old 12-01-2008   #70
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Thanks Mini (and others), I'll have to go over the other thread you posted for crossovers (as well as search for lobing, etc.). I just want to say that these threads help to really dispel some of the myths of crossovers and have helped me to understand that simple passive crossovers are anything but "simple"! Thanks again,
Chris

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Old 01-03-2009   #71
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

thanks for the informative write up.
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Old 01-04-2009   #72
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Thank you for posting this.
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Old 03-27-2009   #73
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Great Read, nice discussion

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Old 03-28-2009   #74
 
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Hello everyone. This is a real help for me, what a great forum! I'm just starting out in Car audio but I have a good background in sound, mostly in music related stuff (live p.a. and recording studios).
I hope this is an appropriate post for this thread...

I'm thieving the crossovers from the factory amp in my '89 bmw 525i to use with a 4x40w head unit. (this is just the beginning...)

So with the original setup the Speaker negatives are shared (ie FL and BL run together - you can see on the backside of the board)... does this affect things? I'm not sure if I should run separate negatives to the head or tie them together first - does it matter?

I'd be happy to get any other advice too - nice to be here!
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Old 03-28-2009   #75
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Default Re: A Basic Guide to Crossovers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim eh? View Post
Hello everyone. This is a real help for me, what a great forum! I'm just starting out in Car audio but I have a good background in sound, mostly in music related stuff (live p.a. and recording studios).
I hope this is an appropriate post for this thread...

I'm thieving the crossovers from the factory amp in my '89 bmw 525i to use with a 4x40w head unit. (this is just the beginning...)

So with the original setup the Speaker negatives are shared (ie FL and BL run together - you can see on the backside of the board)... does this affect things? I'm not sure if I should run separate negatives to the head or tie them together first - does it matter?

I'd be happy to get any other advice too - nice to be here!
I'm not quite following you. Can you be more specific? What is FL, BL, and the other labeling you're using?

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.
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