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Old 05-05-2008   #151
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abmolech View Post
No
Music is subjective.
Sound reproduction is science.
Apologies for mixing the statements up. This is absolutely true. The issue is that people tend not to be identical in their perception due to auditory, psychological, and environmental variables. To focus on audibility only is the easy way out, but leaves too much on the table.

Quote:
The only people that try to make it subjective are the people who have little or no qualifications to make objective statements.
I would say there is a gap between people that have a ton of experience with a wide variety of equipment and content, and those who understand the physics of it all in a more complete manner. Unfortunately, the two tend to be mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Let me guess, your a qualified electrical engineer right?
Or at least SOME electrical training. This is basic physics.
Well, I know enough to not kill myself with current, and to be a successful systems designer for over a decade. One doesn't need to be a meteorologist to tell when it's going to rain, either.

Quote:
The only mystery is why people can't grasp basic physics, and even worse, turn around and try to lecture EE on cables.
The problem is, with musical reproduction, there is far more going on in the ear/brain connection that simple electrical theory. This is where EEs get confused to the point where they think understanding one element is to understand all.

Quote:
Spend your time doing something more productive, like cooling the Sun with your breathe.
lol I know, trying to talk to people with their cookie-cutter EE degrees to defend is a waste of time.
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Old 05-05-2008   #152
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Default Re: the science of cables

There isn't anything to discuss, the science of transmitting a 20 Hz- 20 KHz signal through a transmission line is incredibly well documented.

If it is NOT well documented, it should leave the field wide open for someone to complete their doctorate in.

Point
I believe we can eliminate transmission lines from the "weak link" category, and move onto more important matters.
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Old 05-05-2008   #153
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

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Originally Posted by Abmolech View Post
There isn't anything to discuss, the science of transmitting a 20 Hz- 20 KHz signal through a transmission line is incredibly well documented.
And this is the statement that makes me laugh at those that try and argue that cables impart some immeasurable addition to sound reproduction. It's like somehow cable manufacturers have found the mythical addition and refuse to tell anyone else about it and that all scientists in the world are idiots I guess they forget that the EE's are the ones that have built the equipment they use.
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Old 05-05-2008   #154
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

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Originally Posted by Daishi View Post
And this is the statement that makes me laugh at those that try and argue that cables impart some immeasurable addition to sound reproduction. It's like somehow cable manufacturers have found the mythical addition and refuse to tell anyone else about it and that all scientists in the world are idiots I guess they forget that the EE's are the ones that have built the equipment they use.
The problem is, with musical reproduction, there is far more going on in the ear/brain connection that simple electrical theory. This is where EEs get confused to the point where they think understanding one element is to understand all.

I'll repeat this until it gets through.
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Old 05-05-2008   #155
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Default Re: the science of cables

Wise man once said "IF they measure the same they will sound the same".
Words to live by.
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Old 05-05-2008   #156
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikers View Post
The problem is, with musical reproduction, there is far more going on in the ear/brain connection that simple electrical theory. This is where EEs get confused to the point where they think understanding one element is to understand all.

I'll repeat this until it gets through.
Through in what way? We are discussing an electrical signal though a wire. No mystery there at all-and hasnt been for many many years.

Simple electrical theory sums it up pretty well.
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Old 05-05-2008   #157
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca90ss View Post
Wise man once said "IF they measure the same they will sound the same".
Words to live by.
If they measure the same they SHOULD sound the same (provided two scopes measure the same; calibration is a factor). Alas, we are not all created equal. Not only that, but pride in ownership, appearance, and brand cache all matter in the psychological aspect. These are things that admittedly broaden the discussion, but are critical considerations when discussing any purchase in audio, cables or otherwise.
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Old 05-05-2008   #158
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca90ss View Post
Wise man once said "IF they measure the same they will sound the same".
Words to live by.


Exactly. I dont understand why this is so hard for some to grasp. It has been PROVEN MANY MANY MANY times over, (not only with cables but with amplifiers also.) PROVEN. If it measures the same, it sounds the same.
There is no disputing that there have been numerous tests and challenges done-literally thousands. And guess what-they have all had the same result.
No one has ever been able to tell the difference in a double blind test.
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Old 05-05-2008   #159
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikers View Post
pride in ownership, appearance, and brand cache all matter in the psychological aspect. These are things that admittedly broaden the discussion, but are critical considerations when discussing any purchase in audio, cables or otherwise.
We're talking about the science of cables. None of that stuff matters in a double blind A/B/X test. We already know that there are plenty of people who buy into the snake oil and hype of high end cables and other useless tweaks and no amount of scientific data will change their minds.
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Old 05-05-2008   #160
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

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Originally Posted by dtviewer View Post
Exactly. I dont understand why this is so hard for some to grasp. It has been PROVEN MANY MANY MANY times over, (not only with cables but with amplifiers also.) PROVEN. If it measures the same, it sounds the same.
It really hasn't been proven, because the people that pose the tests really have little to no experience with anything other than their test samples and subjects.

Not only that, but these assumptions are a little naive. To assume that everything that measures the same sounds likewise is to basically negate the millions that observe the difference (and have done so) for years. So if you want to replace millions of consumers with a few thousand tests that predisposed to a certain result, that's up to you.

Quote:
No one has ever been able to tell the difference in a double blind test.
You people still think this? This myth has been zapped for years. It's still clung to because there hasn't been a sanctioned white paper to prove otherwise, but oh yes, it's done.
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Old 05-05-2008   #161
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca90ss View Post
We're talking about the science of cables. None of that stuff matters in a double blind A/B/X test. We already know that there are plenty of people who buy into the snake oil and hype of high end cables and other useless tweaks and no amount of scientific data will change their minds.
Yes, we are talking about the science. Thing is, EEs tend to forget that there's more than one discipline.

Perception has more to do with what a scope says, as has been established ad infinitum. To ignore it makes your scope of knowledge and experience seem smaller than it probably really is.
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Old 05-05-2008   #162
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Default Re: the science of cables

From the first post
Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
Q. Do all cables ... THAT MEASURE THE SAME ... sound the same?
A. No known reason to believe otherwise If you wish to disprove the hypothesis, though, you must of course establish an experiment where all other possible variables are eliminated.
If you can show me an experiment where two cables that measure the same sound different I would love to see it.
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Old 05-05-2008   #163
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikers View Post
The problem is, with musical reproduction, there is far more going on in the ear/brain connection that simple electrical theory. This is where EEs get confused to the point where they think understanding one element is to understand all.

I'll repeat this until it gets through.
You can repeat it all you want, it doesn't mean that is has content. We are discussing the accurate transmission of a signal over a wire, ears have nothing to do with it. If you are saying that wires some how impart a change to a signal, and that's good, well.....
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Old 05-06-2008   #164
 
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Default Re: the science of cables

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Originally Posted by pikers View Post
It really hasn't been proven, because the people that pose the tests really have little to no experience with anything other than their test samples and subjects.

*Wrong. It has been proven over and over. Whether you choose to ignore this fact or not is up to you, but it is still a fact.

You people still think this? This myth has been zapped for years. It's still clung to because there hasn't been a sanctioned white paper to prove otherwise, but oh yes, it's done.

*Why, because you claim so? Would you like to back that up with something? Or is your claim supposed to be 'proof'?
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Old 03-03-2010   #165
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Smile Re: the science of cables

UP ^^^^^
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Old 03-29-2015   #166
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Default Re: the science of cables

Was doing research by using the search function and found this gem!

Damn I wish we still had werewolf here.

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Old 03-30-2015   #167
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Default Re: the science of cables

You mean lycan? hehe
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Old 03-30-2015   #168
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Default Re: the science of cables

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Originally Posted by AAAAAAA View Post
You mean lycan? hehe
That probably what people remember him by here if he is remembered at all other than the older members.

He probably invented a time travel machine and won't be back!

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