Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears - Page 13 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 08-11-2015   #301
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
I'm realizing there's another term besides "Doppler Effect" we can use to describe the sounds within the noise tracks.

Flanger Effect


If you find the Wikipedia entry for Flanger, they have an audio sample of the effect.

With my background as a DJ, I've been familiar with the sounds of flangers for many years. Most flangers are done with electronic FX machines, or are built into the mixers. But you can actually create flanger effects with 2 turntables and 2 copies of the same record. When you play the 2 records together and mix them, and then slightly adjust the delay between those records, you get an audible flanger effect. As the timing between the records changes, the pitch of the flanger will change.


The only thing is.... I've not been very good at picking out the flanger effect within pink noise using my ears. I believe the reason for this is because the amount of time delay for the flanger effect to be highly noticeable is probably a lot larger than the delay resolution of our DSPs. A .01ms delay won't create much flanging, especially at lower frequencies.

I'm going to try this method out again in a few weeks and see if I can't get my ears trained a little better now that I feel like I've got a stronger grasp on what to listen for.
Ah!!! Might be why I had an easy time with it.. Exe-guitar player. Well all too familiar with flange and phase affects. I could tell just by a couple clicks with the Helix when this occurred. What's even more fun is move your head one inch left/right then all bets are off.

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Old 08-11-2015   #302
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

I bet it could be demonstrated fairly easily by placing two home speakers side by side, running it from a couple channels of a DSP, sitting dead center sweet-spot and applying delay to one side. Might be good way to train your ears for recognition.


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Old 08-20-2015   #303
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

While the method sounded good when I did it, I could never get it quite right. Used Erin H's set up (tracerite) after level matching and eqing and its almost dead on. As i do these with pink noise and an RTA (and my ears to an extent) the t/a is (I believe) irrelevant so I think it is safe to do it after. I then leave the right side set and use pink noise to move (ever so slightly) the left delay to center each speaker (e.g., center woofers relative to each other, then mids and then tweets). Sub, if just took all my times, added 1.0 to them and then the sub delay up and down until the bass drum sounded like it was coming from outside my windshield and on my hood.

That said, I still there is def. something here and when I get the time (and its not super hot-- no ac in a car and it gets hot super fast) I will retry and see if i can get better at hearing the rumble because it does seem to make the system sound "free-er", like it is not trying so hard.

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Old 09-07-2015   #304
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Been playing with this method and still learning it but something has me scratching my head.

I can get the pink noise centered (using REW pn generator), and can tell difference between in and out of phase pink noise by flipping one of the midbass. When I go to play music, vocals and stage are pretty centered but midbass is anemic. So I flip polarity on one of the midbass and bam, comes to life! Midbass is excellent, only now my stage is centered over my steering wheel/ or pulled left.

Midbass are in stock lower door location. Kinda confused how I can get a perfectly centered staged but no midbass, but flip midbass 180 I get great sound just image doesnt center as if out of phase.

So my out of phase gives great midbass response, but in-phase gives centered image but dull midbass. Im sure Im doing something wrong.

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Old 09-07-2015   #305
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

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Originally Posted by crackinhedz View Post
Been playing with this method and still learning it but something has me scratching my head.

I can get the pink noise centered (using REW pn generator), and can tell difference between in and out of phase pink noise by flipping one of the midbass. When I go to play music, vocals and stage are pretty centered but midbass is anemic. So I flip polarity on one of the midbass and bam, comes to life! Midbass is excellent, only now my stage is centered over my steering wheel/ or pulled left.

Midbass are in stock lower door location. Kinda confused how I can get a perfectly centered staged but no midbass, but flip midbass 180 I get great sound just image doesnt center as if out of phase.

So my out of phase gives great midbass response, but in-phase gives centered image but dull midbass. Im sure Im doing something wrong.
Are you aligning your mid-bass by themselves. Try aligning them alone with low-pass defeated and tweets (or mids in 3-way) muted, so mid-bass alone are playing all the way up, realign roughly using distance measurements, then dial in finely to bring them in alignment with a centered image.

If they're aligned with vocals making "S" sounds, imagining center, instead of "sh", they should be in phase all the way down. Unless I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me.

My theory is you might have tweeters dialed in, but mids no. While I believe you can get that last little bit by ear, using a good distance delay amount as your base to start from I think is essential.

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Old 09-07-2015   #306
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Yeah, only midbass playing. (2 way active) Everything else muted.

I will give it another go tomorrow, had to take a break from listening fatigue.

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Old 02-27-2016   #307
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Thanks for the info A++
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Old 12-23-2016   #308
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Not to resurrect an older thread, but THANK YOU to the OP. I just used this method to dial in the TA on my Helix V Eight tonight and all I can say is wow, I can't believe it's that easy to do by ear. The end result is excellent!
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Old 02-04-2017   #309
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

I've always attempted to align like drivers separately with a centered vocal track and for the most part felt happy but I gave this a shot today for the hell of it and it was an eye opener for sure.
It helped me identify some big phase issues between drivers I never knew I had, at first the values between the midbass and midrange in mine seemed too far apart when I used this method and made no sense, I then chose to flip the phase on the midrange and try again and once I finished it was set to what felt to be a value that made far more sense. After completing it I found that my stage depth feels to have changed noticeably now my drivers are in phase and has given it more of an openness and extra dimension that weren't there before as I never realised the non alike drivers were so out of phase...

I will add though I only rushed through and still will need a little more work but had great trouble with the sub and midbass. My quick workaround for those drivers that I felt worked quicker and easier for me was to instead play a sine wave between them and play with the midbass time alignment until the tone sounded the loudest. Ideology being a tone playing in phase between them should sum and play at its loudest and if it got quieter it was phase cancellation related being a pure tone.

It was tough between the midrange and tweeter I'll add as well, not to notice the Doppler effect and harmonics but because my delay increments on 0.05ms steps were just a little big for those drivers. Incredibly hard to zero in as one click up or down and the harmonics were back in full swing, in my experience the tweeter was the one driver where it just clicks in and theres no finding the centre, it was either on point or it wasn't with absolutely no in between, I just wish I had finer adjustments I could play with. Either way, I look forward to doing a little more fine tuning and seeing how much I can improve. Definitely merit here in identifying phase issues that could be missed in a 3 way active front stage, I never would've guessed I'd have to flip the phase of my midrange drivers.


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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #310
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

I am about to try this but I read you need to start with the SUB first. I dont have a SUB installed yet, but have a 3-way active front: Midbass, Mid, Tweet. SUB will be installed soon, but would like to get the front dialed in pretty good without it. I know I will have to re-do it ALL once I get the SUB since it will be the furthest away, but thats fine.

So in my case, do I start with the Midbasses and Midranges first, or the Pass Tweet since its the furthest away?
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9255, alignment, bass, calibrate, delay, focus, image, midbass or range, phase, stage, t/a, time, time alignment, tweeter

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