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Old 03-26-2011   #51
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

All I want to say is thanks. I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer. It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before.

This really should be a sticky!

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Old 03-30-2011   #52
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it. The result is quite spectacular!
Before I had my Pioneer P99RS does the auto TA (using the custom method) and fine tune it afterward. It sound pretty good with my system. But compare to this method of TA, Greg200SE-R method is even better...much better Now my system sound more deeper(especially the midbass), voice is more focus and center and overall dynamics has improved. I would say my SQ improve at least 50% with this method.
Thank you Greg200SE-R for sharing this method with us. If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch
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Old 04-06-2011   #53
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsun_g View Post
Thank you for the great write-up. I have a seemingly obvious question, hopefully not dumb:

Would this method also work if I play a sine wave at the xover frequency between sub/mid and at the xover frequency between mid/hi? I figure it may be easier to hear cancellation and maximum amplitude by just focusing on the frequency in question instead of using a whole spectrum of noise. Thoughts?
GREAT question. Using sine waves at specific freqs is something I tried early on while experimenting. I tried sine, square, sawtooth as well as multiple waves. The results were always the same: adjusting delays doesn't change the sound of the waves in any meaningful way. No repeatable patterns emerged, and no indications given when the drivers were aligned. I'm conviced they're too focused in bandwidth.

It's not about buying the best equipment, it's about getting the most out of it.

Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Last edited by Greg200SE-R; 04-06-2011 at 08:09 PM..
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Old 04-06-2011   #54
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
...I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer. It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before...
This sums up perfectly what to expect, and how to practice listening for the Doppler effect. If I could still edit my original write up, I'd incorporate steps to practice with the mid/tweeter alignment before doing the whole system. Thanks for that summary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymcse View Post
I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it... ...If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch
Thanks for your time and patience. If anyone gave this a try and gave up, try aligning your mid/tweeter to get the hang of it. Once the "aha" moment comes, you're 90% of the way there.

It's not about buying the best equipment, it's about getting the most out of it.

Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears
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Old 04-19-2011   #55
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Amazing write-up. Thanks for the help.
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Old 04-19-2011   #56
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

nice write up!

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Old 04-27-2011   #57
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Can I take advantage of this method on a very simple system (front coaxes, rear coaxes, and sub)?

Last edited by xt577; 04-27-2011 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 04-27-2011   #58
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Sure can. All speakers can benefit from some time alignment.

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Old 04-27-2011   #59
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by xt577 View Post
Can I take advantage of this method on a very simple system (front coaxes, rear coaxes, and sub)?
Yup, as far as bass alignment between sub and front coaxials, you'll get all of the benefits. You can't adjust TA between your front mids/tweets, but they are somewhat inherently time aligned by merit of being coax speakers. If you have TA already, there's never any reason not to take advantage of it.

About your rear coaxes though, my writ up never involves rear speakers. You can align them to the fronts, but I can't say how it will sound. In general, it would be considered bad for sound quality, but good for giving your rear passengers sound. good luck

It's not about buying the best equipment, it's about getting the most out of it.

Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears
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Old 04-30-2011   #60
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Using this guide, how would you time align components?

In my specific setup, I have my components by the doors and both tweeter and mids are next to each other.

Now, do I align sub with mid/tweeter as a whole, or should I do Sub and Mid first, then Mid with tweeter and adjust phase on tweeter to match my mid?
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Old 05-01-2011   #61
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post

This really should be a sticky!

Is a great thread
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Old 05-01-2011   #62
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlejuanito View Post
Using this guide, how would you time align components?

In my specific setup, I have my components by the doors and both tweeter and mids are next to each other.

Now, do I align sub with mid/tweeter as a whole, or should I do Sub and Mid first, then Mid with tweeter and adjust phase on tweeter to match my mid?
Don't understand your question, do you run passive Xover or active?

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Old 05-01-2011   #63
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

For a passive setup, you'd have to TA the sub to the mid and tweeter at the same time. This walk through states how to use it with an active setup.

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Old 05-03-2011   #64
 
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Exclamation Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Holy crap guys. I've had a break through with my system. I'm flabbergasted by what I was able to accomplish using this ear method. I'm really floored by my results. And I was starting to get rather frustrated with my hardware, thinking maybe I made a bad selection of gear, or that I'd have to shell out another grand to make any further improvements. I was wrong.

Honestly, I was a bit skeptical at first glace of the thread title - maybe even condecendingly. But reading into it further made me curious. Then I thought, why not, I'll give it a shot.

Some background; my x794 hu has dta in .06 foot increments (or .07, I forget). I had initially calibrated the system by measuring my listening position to each speaker, like I'm supposed to. Those measurements are:

tweets mids sub
L 4ft 3.25ft 4.72 ft
R 4.75ft 4.5ft 4.72 ft

(The tweets are mounted to my stock kick panels - only a few inches further away from my listening position than my mids, which are in my stock door location)

I've had the nearest values for each of these measurements dialed into the deck. The result is an imbalanced image with holes and peaks all over the place. Like audible swiss cheese. I just didn't get it. Why didn't my sound resolve? I measured and remeasured everything. I thought I was screwed.

So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid.

Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it.

Moving on, I continued with what the OP suggested, but eventually veered off on my own. I turned off the sub, and plugged in my left mid. The mids where now isolated to themselves. At this point, I ditched the pink noise and started playing a 250hz tone.

Here's where the magic happens; I started off with the value of my left mid at the distance it is from my listening position. Eyes closed, I moved the inrements up and down, regardless of how "off" they seemed. Click, click, click - nothing happenening...ehhh. Then suddenly, as I continued moving the value down, the 250hz tone started to move to the right from what seemed like somewhere on the driver door/inside my left ear. It traveled clear across my steering wheel then quickly veered back to the driver door/left ear. I fine tuned it back to what seemed dead smack center of my steering wheel. Then I looked at the value on the deck.

Left mid: 1.25 feet away

WTF?!? So my right mid is 4.72 feet away, and my left is 1.25 feet away? Seriously? So the mid physically placed in the lower portion of my door is just an illusion eh? My mid is actually sitting in my lap, in some kind of quantum paradox? Okay, I see. Guess my deck came from a parallel universe where "here" is actually "there." Matter of fact, whoever is still reading this, it may come as a surprise to you, but you're actually the one writing this. Cats are actually dogs, and Elephants are actually jel...ok sorry. But yeah, you could imagine my bewilderment - my excited bewilderment.

I then quickly dashed over and isolated my right mid and right tweet. xover on mids back to 2,500 hz low passed. 3000hz tone. Moving the right tweet distance value did nothing, so I decided to plug everything back in, and match the tweet distance values to my mid values. After this, while playing a music track, the high end was still slightly skewed , so I moved the right tweet value one notch further away than my right mid value, and my left tweet value one notch further away from my left mid value.

Final values:

tweets mids sub
L 1.31ft 1.25ft 4.79
R 4.79ft 4.72ft 4.79

BOOM.

My image is now crystal clear, with the sound stage smack dab in the middle of my steering wheel. I was in a trance listening to some of my favorite tracks, until suddenly my deck turned off in the middle of listening. Ah! Whoops. Drained the battery. Oh and cool, the deck reset to factory settings. And then I stabbed myself.

Haha, thank god I wrote down all the values. I turned the Car back on (dang, I really did drain the battery.... the Car barely started). After quickly plugging all the values back in, I was in business. Continued listening with the car in idle. Had to open the garage for the exhaust, and it was raining - but hell if I cared. Finally I begrudgingly turned the car off, the gas light when on! And we all know how cheap that stuff is!

In conclusion, this event made me a true believer in the TAuris method (auris - latin for "ear"). Sometimes to get it done right, you gotta do it yourself.

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Last edited by ReticulatingPigeonElf; 05-03-2011 at 11:36 PM..
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Old 05-04-2011   #65
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.
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Old 05-04-2011   #66
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

It sounds as though your mids might be wired opposite polarity with one another, given the preferred delay setting at 250Hz.
250Hz has a wavelength of 4.5 feet (a delay of 2.25 feet between 2 point sources would cause cancellation). Your new setting compared with the old has an additional delay of about 2.25 feet between R and L.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReticulatingPigeonElf View Post
Holy crap guys. I've had a break through with my system. I'm flabbergasted by what I was able to accomplish using this ear method. I'm really floored by my results. And I was starting to get rather frustrated with my hardware, thinking maybe I made a bad selection of gear, or that I'd have to shell out another grand to make any further improvements. I was wrong.

Honestly, I was a bit skeptical at first glace of the thread title - maybe even condecendingly. But reading into it further made me curious. Then I thought, why not, I'll give it a shot.

Some background; my x794 hu has dta in .06 foot increments (or .07, I forget). I had initially calibrated the system by measuring my listening position to each speaker, like I'm supposed to. Those measurements are:

tweets mids sub
L 4ft 3.25ft 4.72 ft
R 4.75ft 4.5ft 4.72 ft

(The tweets are mounted to my stock kick panels - only a few inches further away from my listening position than my mids, which are in my stock door location)

I've had the nearest values for each of these measurements dialed into the deck. The result is an imbalanced image with holes and peaks all over the place. Like audible swiss cheese. I just didn't get it. Why didn't my sound resolve? I measured and remeasured everything. I thought I was screwed.

So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid.

Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it.

Moving on, I continued with what the OP suggested, but eventually veered off on my own. I turned off the sub, and plugged in my left mid. The mids where now isolated to themselves. At this point, I ditched the pink noise and started playing a 250hz tone.

Here's where the magic happens; I started off with the value of my left mid at the distance it is from my listening position. Eyes closed, I moved the inrements up and down, regardless of how "off" they seemed. Click, click, click - nothing happenening...ehhh. Then suddenly, as I continued moving the value down, the 250hz tone started to move to the right from what seemed like somewhere on the driver door/inside my left ear. It traveled clear across my steering wheel then quickly veered back to the driver door/left ear. I fine tuned it back to what seemed dead smack center of my steering wheel. Then I looked at the value on the deck.

Left mid: 1.25 feet away

WTF?!? So my right mid is 4.72 feet away, and my left is 1.25 feet away? Seriously? So the mid physically placed in the lower portion of my door is just an illusion eh? My mid is actually sitting in my lap, in some kind of quantum paradox? Okay, I see. Guess my deck came from a parallel universe where "here" is actually "there." Matter of fact, whoever is still reading this, it may come as a surprise to you, but you're actually the one writing this. Cats are actually dogs, and Elephants are actually jel...ok sorry. But yeah, you could imagine my bewilderment - my excited bewilderment.

I then quickly dashed over and isolated my right mid and right tweet. xover on mids back to 2,500 hz low passed. 3000hz tone. Moving the right tweet distance value did nothing, so I decided to plug everything back in, and match the tweet distance values to my mid values. After this, while playing a music track, the high end was still slightly skewed , so I moved the right tweet value one notch further away than my right mid value, and my left tweet value one notch further away from my left mid value.

Final values:

tweets mids sub
L 1.31ft 1.25ft 4.79
R 4.79ft 4.72ft 4.79

BOOM.

My image is now crystal clear, with the sound stage smack dab in the middle of my steering wheel. I was in a trance listening to some of my favorite tracks, until suddenly my deck turned off in the middle of listening. Ah! Whoops. Drained the battery. Oh and cool, the deck reset to factory settings. And then I stabbed myself.

Haha, thank god I wrote down all the values. I turned the Car back on (dang, I really did drain the battery.... the Car barely started). After quickly plugging all the values back in, I was in business. Continued listening with the car in idle. Had to open the garage for the exhaust, and it was raining - but hell if I cared. Finally I begrudgingly turned the car off, the gas light when on! And we all know how cheap that stuff is!

In conclusion, this event made me a true believer in the TAuris method (auris - latin for "ear"). Sometimes to get it done right, you gotta do it yourself.

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Build log. Car audio is just a game of physics.
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Old 05-04-2011   #67
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReticulatingPigeonElf View Post
...So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid.

Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it...
You have about 25% of the benefit of this method. Yup, 25%. You actually heard the incoherent rumble between the sub/mid (the hardest part!)... The rest of the method should have been gravy if you heard that - and continued to follow the steps. Test tones will never get you to 100%, that's why you couldn't hear any changes with the mid/tweet. trust me, I've tried sine waves and every other kind of test signal I could find. White noise is all you need.

Try to follow the steps from beginning to end. You think you're excited about your system now? You have no idea...

It's not about buying the best equipment, it's about getting the most out of it.

Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears
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Old 05-04-2011   #68
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast VW View Post
It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.
Wrong. It should be centered right in front of you. Everything should appear equally left and right.

Middle of dash/windshield is NOT center. It may be center or Car but it's not center of sound to YOU (The listener)
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Old 05-04-2011   #69
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast VW View Post
It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.
mids and tweets installed under me (kicks/door panel) so, stage doesn't go much higher than steering wheel. don't have many passengers in there so sound tailored for my location is pretty cool.
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Old 05-04-2011   #70
 
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlejuanito View Post
Wrong. It should be centered right in front of you. Everything should appear equally left and right.

Middle of dash/windshield is NOT center. It may be center or Car but it's not center of sound to YOU (The listener)
Theres a whole thread on this. It comes down to personal preference and if you compete or not.

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Old 05-04-2011   #71
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

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Originally Posted by littlejuanito View Post
Wrong. It should be centered right in front of you. Everything should appear equally left and right.
Please tell us HOW IN HELL, can you have your center stage (where the main singer is on most recordings) above your steering wheel AND have your far left and far right equally spaced from the center? <-- meaning your far left is at least 2 feet (if not 3 feet) outside the car...

Middle of dash/windshield is NOT center. It may be center or Car but it's not center of sound to YOU (The listener)
As posted previously, there's a thread discussing where center should be located and we pretty much concluded that it was down to your preference.
You used really strong words there in your statement but I know 1 thing:
Your statement is ALL WRONG... that's for sure. As stated previously, it's a preference thing - your post implies that it's like that and otherwise... Which is, if you've missed it before, WRONG.

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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

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It comes down to personal preference .
how true !
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Didn't want to start any type of heated debate/argument.

When the time alignment procedure that is explained here is followed correctly, the center image ends up in the center of the dash. I have used this method in 3 different vehicles and the results have been the same everytime. If that's not how you like your vehicle to sound, then make your own adjustments accordingly.
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Old 05-05-2011   #74
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

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Originally Posted by Wesayso
Will following this write up give you an image centered in front of the driver position or an image centered in the car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg200SE-R View Post
I'll assume "centered in the car" means along the car's center line, not "centered within the car."

Great question. The answer is a little bit of both, actually. If I had played a recording of a centered vocalist, I could point toward the image, and I'd end up pointing toward the front+center of the hood, where an emblem or hood ornament would be.

The method, by nature, forms a center image directly in front of the listener. However, this is pulled to the right slightly, because we sit on the left side of the car. It's the wide angle of the right speakers plus the low angle of the left ones.
Greg's answer to this question was on the first page...

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Old 06-22-2011   #75
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Default Re: Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears

Anybody have more tips on setting the sub to midbass alignment? I cannot for the life of me hear it. I had no problem setting the midbass to tweeter, but can't get the sub to midbass. If I were to set the midbass to tweeter first (each side separately), then dial in/check the image centering, could I just delay the whole front stage until it sounds good to me? Or would I need to re-set the midbass to tweeter delay after delaying the whole front? In general what would delaying the whole front stage do to the soundstage?

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