Review: TBI HDSS tweeters

[mvw2]

These comments are based off only very initial impressions. I have just the drivers side tweeter installed with the Seas in the passenger side at the moment. The tweeter has only been in use for a few minutes time, just a few songs. I'm pretty good with initial impressions of hardware, so my comments will be decently accurate. However, I would think the tweeter will break in and open up some, although, it doesn't initially sound tight or constrained. Take these comments as you will.

Correction:
I now have both tweeters in and have been demoing the pair through a variety of music.

I received my TBI tweeters today. TBI was gracious enough to give away quite a few pairs of their new HDSS tweeters to the DIYMA community as an initial trial as well as I'm sure a springboard for interest and feedback.

Build Quality:
The tweeters look and feel well built. They seem durable and of a clean design. The mounting hardware is simple, functional, and well built. Frankly, I have little to complain about in design. My only real gripe is the inline capacitor set to a high (for me) 3.5kHz. I feel this is quite unneeded and makes the remaining 2 feet of wire unusable or at least would require cutting, removing, and reconnecting the wire ends.

Sound Flavor:
Tonality:
The frequency response of this tweeter seems considerably broad and perceiveably flat. The upper end response does seem to roll off a hair, but it's high enough and mild enough to not really be noticeable unless you were to directly compare with another tweeter with more top end. The low end response is well extended. TBI shows them rolling off at 2kHz, but they do output well much below this down through 1kHz with noticable output. You'll even get some midrange out of them although not advisable, lol. At medium-high levels, the tweeter also doesn't break up at all, even when crossed at 2kHz. The low end is surprisingly good and very usable. It's not as robust as say a Scan D2904/6000, but it has a low end that is very functional and usable. What this gives is a neutral, natural tonality. This will make it a very easy candidate for working with almost any mid woofer. I really don't get why they choose to have the inline cap and even set so high. This tweeter offers so much more it's a shame. Heck, I feel it beats the Seas neo in this regard. I don't get the same bottom end output from the Seas as I can with the TBI. The TBI tweeter is humble in presentation. It is for lack of a better word, mild in nature. It lacks effortlessness in presentation and openness in air. It's not dull by any means. It simply doesn't try to stand out...anywhere. It just plays along...humbly but correctly. In a mild mannered way, it's perfect.

Detail:
The level of detail is quite good for a silk. The tweeter provides good definition and isn't muffled of noticeably smoothed off. It lacks any edge/harshness/bite that may create fatigue. This may be undesirable for some seeking something that will nip at their ears, but it makes for a very pleasant tweeter and at the same time doesn't give up too much. Comparatively, the ever popular Seas metal tweeter provides a more extended top end presence and crispness and edge while still coming across as mild, but it is also a metal tweeter. The TBI tweeter seems "correct," just a little less bite and edge then one could have with a different choice. It's a good trade off between comfort and detail. If I didn't have a more detailed reference, I wouldn't notice any lacking, and for a silk, it's quite good. The lower end response lacks nothing. It's well detailed, natural, and blends really well with the mid woofer. For reference, I'm crossing at 1.8kHz when I'm saying this. Yeah, the low end is quite good and wholely usable. The top end simply lacks sparkle and air. It only rolls off slightly, so it's not simply a lack of information. I think the silk dome simply does not transmit this top end information. I'd be curious to see a metal dome tweeter come from TBI.

Usability:
The broad frequency response makes this tweeter exceptionally usable. 2khz and up is no problem at all. Heck, you can run the tweeter a little below 2kHz without issue. It still depends on how loud you're trying to get. So far my woofers are my limiting drivers, so the tweeters are having an easy time, woofers being alpine Type-X Ref running 1.8kHz down. The Type-X Ref woofer isn't a slouch with 10mm one way excursion and a frequency response wanting to use it. They are a metal cone and roll off above 2kHz. Alpine crosses them at 1.8kHz, and this seems ideal from my testing as well. They aren't happy playing higher, rolling off in response and even ringing a little if crossed above 2.3kHz or so. This makes a bit of a challenge for pairing them to a tweeter. The TBI had no problem stepping in.

Sensitivity is good, slightly less then the Seas by a dB or so.

The extended low end response makes the tweeter exceptionally easy to blend with any woofer. I don't think anyone would have a problem pairing these tweeters to just about anything.

Power:
I don't know yet. Sensitivity is good, a notch below the Seas, but they output just as happily as the Seas so far with no real sign of strain. I haven't really broken them in yet or pushed them. As with all tweeters, you don't need much wattage.

Design Comments:
There isn't really anything fancy here. Everything is clean and functional. The design of the mounting hardware favors press fit designs rather them something that locks. I had some trouble fitting one tweeter in the flush mount housing. It took a little effort to get over the initial lip.

(Note to TBI)
When manufacturing either the tweeter or cups, round off the leading edge just a tiny bit. I hate the inline cap. Get rid of it. There is just no reason to have it unless stupid people are buying these things and running them full range. If so, they deserve to wreck them. These simply don't seem to be fragile tweeters to me.

Additional Notes:
I figure I'd do a little comparison between some of the other tweeters I've run.
Morel Pulse tweeter:
This was a fun, edgy silk tweeter. It was bright, very detailed with a lot of bite. The sound was a little rough around the edges, not quite a flat frequency response, and a little scratchy in nature. They didn't like a ton of power though and would strain when pushed hard. They didn't play tremendously low either. For Morels entry level set, they did fair well though and offered a very upbeat presentation in a silk format.

Apine Type-X tweeter (Vifa XT19 based):
This is a very pleasant tweeter to listen to. The sound is open and airy with a great top end presence, oddly so for a silk, but also very smooth and laid back, almost too much so. Frequency response and usability was worthless below 3kHz, but above this, they were happy. The frequency response isn't flat but tuned pleasantly. The level of detail would have been my only gripe for the tweeter. It was just a little too soft in presentation, tremendously smooth and laid back, kind of warm in tone.

Alpine F#1 tweeter (Scan2904/6000 based):
This tweeter was a monster. I tend to consider it halfway between a 2" mid and 1" tweeter because of how well it plays down low and how robust this tweeter is in the lower high range. The upper end response sucked above 10kHz though. It rolled off quite a bit, rather noticeable, and EQing any in only brought roughness in a failed attempt for top end response. It simply wasn't built for it. However, for what it lacked up top, it made up down low. The bottom end of this tweeter was monsterous for a tweeter. It was full and great presence. It could be paired with most any woofer without issue. The presentation was full and enveloping. As well, the sound was very transparent in nature, and the tweeters themselves basically disappeared. The level of detail is very good in lower frequencies. Up top, it lacked speed. It came across as a larger driver then it really was. Output was great, effortless. Crossed 3kHz or higher, I couldn't tell you what its limit was. They hurt my ears before showing any sign of strain. 2.5kHz, it would start to show a small amount of roughness in the bottom end when played very loud. Usability went down to about 1kHz as long as you didn't mind turning down the volume as you went. My gripe was simply the lack of top end, well that and not quite a flat frequency response. If you could forgo a little top end, this tweeter is a beast.

Seas compact neo/metal:
This is the fan favorite and with good reason. The tweeter is very open and precise. Music is concise but also not forward or offensive. It's just there and it's clean and open. This tweeter does a lot of things right. The upper end response is good. There is a lot of detail without coming across edgy or sharp. It is pretty much transparent. My only gripe with the tweeter is that the presence is slightly on the light side. This is about the only thing that seems to mess up the realism of the tweeter. You get a really clean sound, and it cuts off abruptly, making for a sort of "too light" presence. Sounds don't linger like you expect them to.

TBI HDSS tweeter:
Initial impressions are favorable. It seems to have a lot of good qualities. Mainly, it offers a broad and flat frequency response that makes it incredibly easy to use, more so then any other tweeter I've run to date. It sounds natural and neutral. The level of detail is great for a silk and very good in the low end. The top end is a hair light in presense but not really negatively so. The Scan 6000 tweeter is more robust and full down low, but the TBI reminds me of the 6000 tweeter in its ability to play rather low, easily. The TBI is a little more neutral/natural then the 6000. The Seas is more open, crisp, precise, airy up top, but the metal vs. silk is sort of apples to oranges. In lower frequencies, the TBI edges out the Seas though, being a little fuller and broader with more information being noticeable. Then again, I'm crossing rather low, and the Seas is around the lower limit I would push it. The TBI isn't as smooth and laid back as the XT19 by any means, but it is still mild in presentation. The XT19 had air and an openness to it, despite being very smoothed over and quite laid back. The TBI doesn't have this openness and air. The overall presentation is very, very close to the Seas tweeter, just a little softer in nature, a little fuller and robust in the low end, and a little milder on the top end. It would be interesting to compare the TBI tweeter to the silk Seas tweeter. I think they'd sound quite close. If TBI built a metal dome, it'd be curious to compare it to the Seas metal.

I will add/modify/update my comments once I install the other tweeter and run these a while.

[kappa546]

great review! I'd love to have the spx PRO tweeter included in the comparison. if you're interested i have an extra pair.

[mvw2]

Toss me them if you want.

I'm really curious how the XT25 based tweeter does. Zaph's tests of the couple Vifa ones are quite good. If the alpine variant shares their response, it should kick some butt. I know npdang favors the XT25 quite a bit as long as it's on-axis.

[kappa546]

i dont mind sending you one. pm me an addy

[mvw2]

Installed the second tweeter and played some more music through. I ran through my first post and tweaked my comments some.

[Boostedrex]

Originally Posted by mvw2

Toss me them if you want.

I'm really curious how the XT25 based tweeter does. Zaph's tests of the couple Vifa ones are quite good. If the alpine variant shares their response, it should kick some butt. I know npdang favors the XT25 quite a bit as long as it's on-axis.

MVW, from what I've been able to find/read the SPX Pro tweet isn't an XT25 variant. It's some Scan derived unit. This is not 100% sure yet, but the little bit of literature I have been able to find is pointing in this direction.


Very nice review on the TBI. It sounds like a VERY capable tweeter. How/where do you have them mounted in your Suby? And a usuable X-over point of 1.8KHz is very nice.

Zach

[mvw2]

Down by the woofer. I'm not a fan of an a-pillar setup without a mid to go with it.

I've heard comments that it was a Scan based tweeter, but that seems odd for the price that the tweeter wholesales for. I know there's a bit of a markup for Scan drivers, but even the D2904/6000 based one was $60 wholesale. The Type-X Pro tweeter is only $18. That is far more inline with the Vifa based tweeters from the older sets. I know folks have compared it to the Polk SR6500 tweeter which is a XT25 based tweeter.

[kappa546]

My inclination is that it's a SS derived unit because of the phase plug. no vifa variant had that contour. I mean would you argue that the mid isn't revelator derived because of the FG cone/neo magnet? I'm not saying either are modded versions of the original, but they definitely resemble them more than vifas. I think that since SS has moved onto Illuminator as their flagship, they left alpine with design/patent liberty. who knows though.

[ocuriel]

Your reviews are always awesome. Feel like I owned them already lol.

[drtool]

Thanks for the post mvw2. Getting a tweet sound I like is harder for me then anything else.

[snaimpally]

Excellent review! Thanks especially for comparing them to other well known tweeters.

[mvw2]

Originally Posted by drtool

Thanks for the post mvw2. Getting a tweet sound I like is harder for me then anything else.

It does cover the majority of the frequency spectrum. They simply play a lot of the information. I've come to find that mids and subs vary just as much and getting the right sound from the rest of the system is just as hard.

I'll add some additional comments as I notice new things about the tweeters. The Edit function disappears after a couple days, I can no longer edit the original post, so I will now add as I go.

Comments:
I had an hour and a half drive back home yesterday. I spent the time tweaking levels and time alignment and dialing everything in.

Two things that keep coming through with these tweeters:
- natural/neutral sound, very uncolored in any way
- broad, even response

Gripes so far:
- coming from the Seas metal, these are a step down in level of detail, simply missing the edge/precision of a medal dome
- while the low end response is pretty much perfect, top end is just a touch light/soft in nature, missing sparkle/air. Even the Seas don't really "sparkle," but they do have air and are incredibly open and very transparent. The TBI is simply just soft enough on the top end to kind of be incapable of this. Information is there, but it's simply not at the same level. For a silk and compared to a lot of other tweeters, it's very good in its own right, but compared to the Seas metal, the Seas simply has more top end presence and precision. The Seas simply lacks a little fullness/weight in presentation, noticeably so in lower frequencies comparatively to the TBI which fairs better.

Hopes:
- I'd love, LOVE to see a metal dome tweeter come from TBI. If they can have he same low end but gain the level of detail and top end extention, the tweeter would simply kick serious ass.

[mvw2]

More notes:

Frequency response:
I toyed with some more level balancing and ran through the EQ a little bit off some pink noise. The frequency response is very good, nearly flat from 2kHz to 16kHz+ within a 3dB scope. I have my near tweeter a decently heavy 60 degrees off-axis and the far one 30 degrees. When EQing the near tweeter, it was interesting to see no need for EQ boost on the top end. The dispersion of this tweeter is great and remains so even up top. With the Seas, I found msyelf bumping up the upper tip a little to account for off-axis roll off of the near tweeter. With this tweeter, I don't have to do that. TBI deserves some praise for getting a tweeter to work this well off-axis.

Sensitivity:
As I've run these and break them in, sensitivity has gone up a little bit.

Price:
I mentioned this in another person's review of these tweeters, but I'll reiterate it here to maintain a consolidated impression. The retail price of these tweeters are $200. The tweeter market is full of good and very good tweeters, many of which sell quite cheap, offering pairs for under $100 and in some cases under $50. At $200, I can't see myself buying a set of TBI tweeters. They're very good. Don't get me wrong. However, in the market that they exist within, they simply aren't competitive at that price point. If I were going to spend $200 on a pair of tweeters, a pair of Hiquphons will be sitting in my car. Right now I own Seas compact neo tweeter which only costs about $70 a pair. I can't say that the TBI is better then the Seas. I really see it as a side step to a different sound signature. I would consider them pretty much on par with each other. However, the price is not. The price I see in my head for a pair of TBI tweeters is $120. That's kind of where I stick their worth. I would still be heavily compelled to look at cheaper options and I would lean towards other options if I was going to start spending $150-$200 on a set of tweeters. The TBI is quite good in many ways. The folks at TBI did their research and testing well. However, they have a rough market to compete in, and they have to somehow justify the cost in some way over other options.

TBI is currently selling their tweeters at 50% off, i.e. $100, during November, and at 25% off ($150) during December. I would consider these tweeters worth the $100 price tag. If you want a good silk tweeter, jump on it. They do almost nothing wrong and a whole lot right.

To TBI:
You guys have a nice product. Kudos to your efforts to make something this good. The home audio realm is a bit more eccentric, and you can many times get away with asking for a whole lot. You have a challenge in the more free market and generally more frugal car audio world, and you have a LOT of other tweeters to compete with. Good luck. If this tweeter sells enough, consider making a metal version. I'd love to hear it.

[snaimpally]

How is the imaging?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by snaimpally

How is the imaging?

It's system dependant ! [ not a speaker thang ]

[mvw2]

Yeah, basically the same as any other tweeter I've run.

Your imaging will come from balancing: overall level balancing, frequency response, time alignment. Driver location, aiming, and the cabin reflections will also play a roll in the presence and how well or poorly the image is "believable" and where the image is located.

The only thing a good tweeter helps with is transparency and frequency response. Transparency helps them disappear, so you can't localize the sources of information. Frequency response is how easy the tweeter is to work with and how much extra EQing you need to balance the tweeter at different off-axis angles. For example, the TBI is pretty transparent, so they aren't really noticable in localization. As well, the TBI has a great off-axis response meaning they are rather oblivious to the angle you run them. This makes them pretty easy to work with right out of the box and in stock location type installs.

So, TBI has a nod for ease. However, there is nothing specific they do that make them image better then any other tweeter. It's just that other tweeters may need more work, mainly EQing.

[mvw2]

Minor tweak: bumped x-over point up just over 2kHz.

After some level tweaking, there was some noticable gap in response on the low end, and bumping up let the woofer filled it better.

Sensitivity is pretty high, higher then the Seas by a couple dB for where I have my levels set. They seemed quieter when new, but I've been setting the levels lower and lower as they broke in.

I'm still really liking this tweeter, and I'd still love to see a metal version. The silk is just missing that top end information and is really my only gripe.

[mvw2]

Me thinking:

These tweeters do not amaze. We get various hardware that is simply brilliant, pieces of engineering that can literally take your breath away and impress you more and more every time you use it. As for the TBI, they simply don't do this. They simply don't do anything wondrous. There is nothing amazing here, however, they do function competently in basically every way. I can see where this leads to some disappointment.

I see these tweeters in the light that they simply don't do anything completely wrong. I know it sounds funny, but bear with me. Other then not being stellar in any particular way, they also don't mess up in any particular way. The sound is decently clean with a respectable amount of information. There isn't noticeable distortion, even when played down low. I mean I notice frequency response roll off before I notice break up. Everything has good presence. The top end is a little mild, but it is a silk, so I give some leeway. They don't sound harsh or "scratchy." They don't sound strained when crossed low and pushed a little. The frequency response is near flat across the board, even when quite off axis. The sound isn't the most detailed, but it's not dark, muddy, veiled. It may be a little bland as the sound isn't particularly lively or engaging. Maybe one could call that in a tiny way dark, but I wouldn't use that word to describe them. Neutral is a good word. There is just nothing horribly wrong with this tweeter. It doesn't make you want to claw your ears off, and you don't find yourself turning down the volume because of some odd annoyance from some response peak, resonance, or whatever. It's simply a tweeter that you can toss into most any setup, and they're just function well. It won't amaze, but it'll function as needed. In most cases, that's good enough.

I don't know. I'll personally give up some level of perfection for ease of use, so I do give bonus "functional points" to this tweeter. I like hardware you can plop in and automatically sounds pretty good. One does not always have to look for "amazing," although it's nice when you find it. The hard part is when something does one thing really, really good, it generally lacks elsewhere.

I like the low end on the TBI tweeters. I like it more then any other tweeter I've run, including the Scan 6000s. The TBI is simply more neutral and balanced. The top end and level of detail, as well as openness/air simply isn't there with the TBI when compared to the Seas. The TBI lacks in overall information and detail/precision of that information when compared to tweeters like the Seas or Scan 6000, but it's not bad either. I'd consider the Scan on another level from the TBI, but it needed more work too.

The TBI just simply doesn't disappoint me. It doesn't make me say "wow, these things are amazing," but they don't mess up in any way either, and that's kind of nice in its own way. I would call the TBI the most balanced tweeter I've ever run.

I've listened to better tweeters; I've listened to worse. These tweeters have been in my car for a couple weeks now, and I am not particularly compelled to remove them yet. Is that worth anything?

[Jhemi80]

Thanks for all the updates! They are very helpful and insightful.

[mvw2]

I like to be...comprehensive.

I like the tweeter. It functions very well.

I know HillbillySQ is getting some guff for not liking them, but I understand why he says they are mediocre. They are. These tweeters aren't amazing in any way. I know, I pick on him a little, but he's the only guy with enough guff here to rip on the tweeters. His ears have heard better hardware. His scale is broader then many of the folks who demoed the tweeters, most likely including me. For most folks, this is the first good tweeter they've run, and to these people, they are amazing. To folks who have heard better, they aren't. You don't really pay a premium for something that isn't amazing. However, these do everything well, with basically no real faults, and that is worth something to me. The ability to do everything well with no real drawbacks is a good thing in my eyes, even though nothing particularly amazes. Everyone puts their own weight to certain aspects. I put more weight on usability. I don't need amazing. I just need something that works well, and the TBI does that just fine. They simply do nothing bad, and they don't particularly leave you desiring more. They just function. I like function. I like working correctly. They're not the end-all of tweeters. They simply are competent enough and broad enough in functionality that they will suit many, many peoples installs quite well and sound quite well doing it. This in of itself is a very hard thing to achieve and worthy of praise.

[Inferno333]

I'd also like to thank you for continued review.

Mine will be going in the kicks here shortly.

[JediMentality]

I must say mvw2, you are a great reviewer. You provide a lot more useful information than most. Initial impressions, lasting impressions, well selected comparisons, comparisons with commonly used/heard gear, and worthy product value opinions. Kudos my friend.

[chuyler1]

mvw2, what crossover point and slope have you settled with? Also, what mids are you running them with?

I've had mine in the car for a few months now and they definitely need some adjustment. The brilliance they once had when fresh out of the box has turned to...well just ordinary. Maybe I need to swap around tweeters again to be reminded of how good they are compared to my other equipment, or maybe I just need to level match and adjust the crossover.

[mvw2]

Um, somewhere around 2.1kHz I think. I'm using the Type-X Ref woofers at the moment. The TBI tweeters start rolling off around 2kHz. The Type-X woofers start rolling off about 2.5kHz, although I'd prefer to cross them lower. I'd love to keep the woofers below 2kHz, but the tweeter rolls off some by then. The best happy point is between 2.1-2.3kHz, not much of a window. I'm running a 24dB/oct. slope.

It's kind of a shame the tweeters roll off at 2kHz. One of their better traits is their low end response and presence. I wish they would play deeper.

If the TBI tweeters are sounding ho-hum to you, that's because they are ho-hum. Nothing of their sound will amaze you. They just don't do anything wrong. They require no EQing. Even the tweeter that's a good 60 degrees off-axis doesn't need any EQing on the top end. The frequency response is great from 2kHz up. The level of detail is good. The mid range and low range presence (on the tweeter scale) is very good. The high end range lacks some detail/sparkle/air/etc. but doesn't suffer in response, just is simply shy on crispness and edge. It's not dark or muddy, there's just no "tada!" It is a silk tweeter though, and some of this character is a side effect of the softer material.

These tweeters need very little work. They just are what they are. You want sparkle and pizazz, there are other options. Sometimes plain and dependable is boring.

I don't know what else to tell you that I already haven't said a couple times. This tweeter does everything right. It just does nothing amazing. My only wish is that there was a metal domed version that offered a little more clarity/detail/sparkle/etc. that a silk simply can't recreate.

[chuyler1]

Ok, the 24db slope makes more sense from what I have found. I have fiddled with 2KHz-2.7KHz with 24db and 3.5KHz-4KHz with a 12db slope. It handles both well and I think its just a matter of deciding how high I want my mids to play. The DLS Iridiums are supposed to be good up to 5KHz and given their location in the lower doors vs my TBIs in the sail panels I'm inclined to let the mids do more of the work for better imaging.