Illuminator 3/4 dome D2004/6020-00/Madisound

[Deton Nation]

I just wanted to give my initial impressions of these and thanks to the people who suggested them.

Wow! I am replacing the original PRS tweets that came with the 720PRS set. They were rather shrill at times, bright, thin sounding... anemic perhaps.

The Scanspeaks have given a totally different presentation. Its amazing what 2 little tweeters can do! They have given body and depth to voices and instruments. What was once hollow is now solid. I would say its an accurate tweeter, a touch on the warm side, or maybe thats because the PRS set was so cool. Nice detail, for example the flutter on Jimmy Smiths Hammond organ is now there and organic sounding. It has weight where before I was listening to just the tones of the organ. The highs are nice and controlled. No going off into shrill land or brightness, staying natural. The soundstage is good... I will have to listen some more to give a better description but it goes from window to window. VS the PRS the image is also much taller.

I mounted the Illuminators in the plastic part that goes in the corner of the front windows of a Mazdaspeed 3. Seems like a good placement and is on a relative equal plane with the mids. I am running 120w into the tweets with a kenwood Class D 4xr amp (its tiny, but sounds great.) Some people prefer Class A/ AB but I think Class D had come far enough where its equal, with lower distortion. I use Class D at home too, so I figured Id stick with it.
I also crossed it at 1.25kHz on my 880 HU with a 12db slope. Seems to match up pretty well at that point. The tweeters play pretty loud too.
After a month I will give more of a real review, but these are def a good purchase.
Mike

[fenis]

You have them high passed at 1.25khz @ 12dB/oct?? That's pretty freakin low for a tweeter! Can they really handle that low a crossover?

I'm tempted to buy these tweeters to replace my harsh and thin sounding MB quart tweets to cross over at about 2.5khz..

[4-way]

As the Fs of this tweeter should be 600 Hz it is possible. On the other hand I would prefer 18dB/oct.
It is also questionable what is left about the "warmth" of human voice (man or woman).

[Deton Nation]

Maybe I will do 18 too. What kind of instruments lie in the 1.25 range? So I can listen to see if there are any bumps. It seems to play pretty well there, and since the fs is 600 I wanted to see if was possible. And it seemed good to go. I know with the PRS tweets once I went too low like 2500, they immediately became harsh and didnt like it.
Mike

Tried 18, I like 12 better, seems fuller...

They need time to break in too... I need to drive cross country... hehe..
These are not laid back tweets, but thats not saying they are harsh..

[Deton Nation]

OK I just moved the crossover to 1.6 @ 12db. Not that the tweets dont play lower, but it definitely opens up the sounstage from top to bottom, instead of covering up the bottom. Or shelving it, hell Im no crossover expert... it seems more whole.

[4-way]

Originally Posted by Deton Nation

... hell Im no crossover expert...

Well, some quotes: "the first step is the hardest", "practice makes perfect" and most important "patience is a virtue".

[kevin k.]

Originally Posted by Deton Nation

OK I just moved the crossover to 1.6 @ 12db. Not that the tweets dont play lower, but it definitely opens up the sounstage from top to bottom, instead of covering up the bottom. Or shelving it, hell Im no crossover expert... it seems more whole.

I think you'll be better off using a HP greater than 1.2 kHz... especially if you want to use 12 db / octave slopes. Even with a 600 Hz FS, that's a 3/4" dome you've got there and you're beginning to push the capabilities of that driver. I want to be clear, though, that this is my opinion. However, it is based off my experience with the D3004/66000 Air Circ Illuminators. The Air Circs are large format, have a 1" dome, and have a lower Fs than your domes and I know from my own personal experience that output for those tweeters is definitely decreasing well before I get to 1.2 kHz. Measurements were taken using a Bruel & Kjaer Type 2250.

Obviously, I'm extrapolating results from one Illuminator model to another, but I think it's based on sound reasoning and good data. Personally, I'd look more around the area that you're checking out right now... 1.6 kHz and higher if you like what you hear.

Anyway, congratulations on your purchase and have fun!

[Deton Nation]

Yeah 1.6 is def better... I am really enjoying the imaging ability of these tweeters and the nuance and detail they pick up. Amazing!!
Thanks!
Mike

[BigRed]

if your tweeter surround is moving back and forth like a subwoofer when playing music, you may want to move it up in crossover point just my opinion as well

[Deton Nation]

Originally Posted by BigRed

if your tweeter surround is moving back and forth like a subwoofer when playing music, you may want to move it up in crossover point just my opinion as well

LOL.... Dood check out my tweets. (link to insane video on Youtube, car shaking, doors moving in and out...)

[FoxPro5]

Yea, even 1.6k at 12 dB sounds kinda iffy. I mean even 800hz 12 dB down is a lot for 19mm of silk and almost 0 xmax.

Where are the mids LP'ed and at which slope? A 6.5" midrange should be good till about 2k before the off axis starts to really suffer.

Not trying to tell you what to do, but maybe some more experimentation could yield even better results?

[kevin k.]

Originally Posted by FoxPro5

Yea, even 1.6k at 12 dB sounds kinda iffy. I mean even 800hz 12 dB down is a lot for 19mm of silk and almost 0 xmax.

Where are the mids LP'ed and at which slope? A 6.5" midrange should be good till about 2k before the off axis starts to really suffer.

Not trying to tell you what to do, but maybe some more experimentation could yield even better results?

I agree with you, John, and my post was more intended to get Mike the hell out of 1.2 kHz territory and moving upwards toward 2 kHz or so. Even at that frequency, I'd have to experiment with a 12 db slope before being entirely convinced that it wasn't straining the tweeters. When I run my Air Circs down at 1.6 kHz I'm always using 24 db / octave slopes.

Big Red's subwoofer / tweeter analogy was pretty funny and appropriate at the same time!

[Deton Nation]

Ok here is the little graph. lol. The fs is 600Hz. People said that the minimum you should cross over is 2x the fs. So that would be 1200 They dont say what slope though...? So I am at 1.6k with a 12 db slope. Does the shape at 12 db break anywhere in the shape of the natural rolloff. Would that be safe? Ill try 2k... I think thats when the mid rolls off.
What does straining sound like am I listening for pops or compression. What kind of instruments lie around 1.6 - 1.2 ?
Thanks.
Mike

[6262ms3]

Nice review, I have the same car and was curious if you have a pic of how you mounted them? I didn't think there was enough room to flush-mount deeper tweets.

[4-way]

I have tried twice to upload a picture with frequency rankings of instruments, but became a message that the moderator "has to approve". So, I have to wait unless there is an other option to upload.

[4-way]

Yes, it worked!!!!

[kevin k.]

Originally Posted by Deton Nation

Ok here is the little graph. lol. The fs is 600Hz. People said that the minimum you should cross over is 2x the fs. So that would be 1200 They dont say what slope though...? So I am at 1.6k with a 12 db slope. Does the shape at 12 db break anywhere in the shape of the natural rolloff. Would that be safe? Ill try 2k... I think thats when the mid rolls off.
What does straining sound like am I listening for pops or compression. What kind of instruments lie around 1.6 - 1.2 ?
Thanks.
Mike

Hi Mike

You can see the rolloff represented by the graph is pretty much 12 db / octave right on the money... Fs of 600 Hz and roughly 88 db amplitude and an octave later you're right at 300 Hz and about 75 or 76 db amplitude. The 2 x Fs thing is a fairly loose rule of thumb that doesn't necessarily apply across the board... e.g., my Air Circs are right around a 500 Hz Fs and my trying to run them at 1 kHz would be painful and probably result in driver failure if run at anything higher than a low volume level. On the other hand, I have some ATC SM75-150 midrange domes that have an Fs of 318 Hz and, in my car, they run down to 400 Hz very comfortably with a 24 db / octave slope.

If you do a search, there are charts that show instrument's frequency ranges.

[Deton Nation]

Originally Posted by 6262ms3

Nice review, I have the same car and was curious if you have a pic of how you mounted them? I didn't think there was enough room to flush-mount deeper tweets.

What I did was I bored out a 1.75" hole in the center of the raised plastic tweeter grill, flattened out the edges a little. Rolled a log of that black sticky gum stuff under the surrounding lip of the tweeter and pushed the 2 together and it fits perfect. Ill see if I can get a snapshot tomorrow.

[Deton Nation]

Originally Posted by kevin k.

Hi Mike

You can see the rolloff represented by the graph is pretty much 12 db / octave right on the money... Fs of 600 Hz and roughly 88 db amplitude and an octave later you're right at 300 Hz and about 75 or 76 db amplitude. The 2 x Fs thing is a fairly loose rule of thumb that doesn't necessarily apply across the board... e.g., my Air Circs are right around a 500 Hz Fs and my trying to run them at 1 kHz would be painful and probably result in driver failure if run at anything higher than a low volume level. On the other hand, I have some ATC SM75-150 midrange domes that have an Fs of 318 Hz and, in my car, they run down to 400 Hz very comfortably with a 24 db / octave slope.

If you do a search, there are charts that show instrument's frequency ranges.

Its seems that I could run 1.6 at 18db. At 2k it definitely sounded a little cleaner but had less detail it seemed and I thought I heard the bottom of some piano chopped off or seperated. At 1.6 and 12db on complex passages it did seem to lose a little focus and get a lil chaotic, by the 18 seemed to cure that. BUT.. it seemes that the 12db slope was much more open sounding than the 18db. So Im not sure what to do. I know I reversed the phase on the tweeters at 12, do you think switching the hp to 18 switched phase back? Maybe Ill try that tomorrow.

[Deton Nation]

Originally Posted by 4-way

Yes, it worked!!!!

Awesome! Ill have to print it and bring it to the car.

[unpredictableacts]

I have a question....

The PRS tweeter that you mentioned.....was that ran active or with the passive crossover network? Reason I ask, based on your thoughts of the PRS tweeter Pioneer crossed them too low with the passive set up and if you will cross it at 4k it is actually not so bad.


Now as far as your scan tweeter I would bump it up in the 2.5-3.5k range and save it some of those 9 lives.

[94VG30DE]

Originally Posted by Deton Nation

I am running 120w into the tweets with a Kenwood Class D x4r amp (its tiny, but sounds great.)

fixed :-)

[Deton Nation]

Originally Posted by unpredictableacts

I have a question....

The PRS tweeter that you mentioned.....was that ran active or with the passive crossover network? Reason I ask, based on your thoughts of the PRS tweeter Pioneer crossed them too low with the passive set up and if you will cross it at 4k it is actually not so bad.


Now as far as your scan tweeter I would bump it up in the 2.5-3.5k range and save it some of those 9 lives.

PRS: What was its crossed over in the passive? When run active for the short bit I ran it at 3k. If I ran it any higher wouldnt there be a gap with the PRS mid, It starts rolling off at 2K. Its out now anyway and not going back.
Crossing over is not as easy as I thought... hopefully I dont cross over before I figure it out... lol

[kevin k.]

Originally Posted by Deton Nation

Its seems that I could run 1.6 at 18db. At 2k it definitely sounded a little cleaner but had less detail it seemed and I thought I heard the bottom of some piano chopped off or seperated. At 1.6 and 12db on complex passages it did seem to lose a little focus and get a lil chaotic, by the 18 seemed to cure that. BUT.. it seemes that the 12db slope was much more open sounding than the 18db. So Im not sure what to do. I know I reversed the phase on the tweeters at 12, do you think switching the hp to 18 switched phase back? Maybe Ill try that tomorrow.

Hi Mike

At this point, it might be a good idea to take a step back, catch your breath, and, if you are interested, have a look at a great information resource. The first link is general, and there's much to be found. The second link is more specific, and is a great primer on x-overs...

http://rane.com/library.html

Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer

[Deton Nation]

Pics!