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Old 05-09-2012   #51
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

vitor-
i shifted the balance to the right a little as a quick way to center the volume level from the front and rear speakers together. in my past vehicles the right balance has somewhat centered the image from a volume level point of view.
then i could focus on the time alignment to further refine the center of the image. it may not be the most technical way to do it but it works for me.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 05-09-2012   #52
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

I see we're working on achieving the results we want with some of the same techniques.

I have to mention two gripes about the P99rs.
1) The balance adjustment doesn't work on the sub output.
This won't be noticed by anyone with only one sub or possibly with more than one in their trunk/hatch where they're farther away for the listening position.
I will have to disconnect one sub to isolate the other one in order to TA it with any other drivers.
These are directly behind me (extended cab ranger).

2) Why did they put the TA in inches instead of milliseconds?
This makes everything backwards, at least to me it does.
I would rather add delay to the driver closest to me (drivers side), not choose the driver on the opposite side (pass.side) and add inches to it in order to delay the closer one (driver side).

I'm still working on TA between drivers on the same side, I haven't figured out what I should be listening for.

P99RS and lovin it/ Fountek FR88.....JL 300/2.....250hz and up/ Peerless sls (4)...Sundown 125.2....63-250hz./ Eclipse 88120 TI dvc (2)....Sundown SAZ-2000D...63-n-down.
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Old 05-19-2012   #53
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

hi all,
There is this Car icon just above the volt's display. Can any one tell me what does it means? I cannot find it on the manual or I am skipping something on the manual.
Plz see the pic attached..
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File Type: jpg What is this car sign above the volt display.jpg (17.3 KB, 216 views)
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Old 05-19-2012   #54
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Quote:
Originally Posted by monty9991 View Post
hi all,
There is this Car icon just above the volt's display. Can any one tell me what does it means? I cannot find it on the manual or I am skipping something on the manual.
Plz see the pic attached..
I don't know what the Car icon represents- It does not display on my DEX. I like it though!

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 05-19-2012   #55
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

This just showed up today after using it for 3-4weeks. And its sometimes on and sometimes off.
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Old 05-19-2012   #56
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

It means traffic signal detected AND the radio is not at the TUNER source.

Do you have an accessory radio tuner installed? Or you have a P01? Because as far as I know P99RS does NOT have RDS function.

DEX-P99RS (Hi/Mid)->PRS-A900->Dynaudio MD102/MW160GT
Sub->Alpine MRD-M300->Dynaudio MW190

Last edited by 82801BA; 05-19-2012 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 05-22-2012   #57
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Update 5/22/2012

Overall I continue to be pleased with the sound quality and volume of my system due in no small contribution to the performance of the DEX P99.
The image is set- I find no need to adjust TA any longer. Thanks to those who suggested to go for it, once you record the settings it is quite easy to run through the menu and make additional refinements.

I am not quite satisfied with final tonality of the autotune EQ portion. Even manually adjusting the EQ is kind of like shooting in the dark.
I have hardware on order to do some real time analysis and I am anxious to see the response of my current tune as well as the (hopefully) improved SQ once I know where the hot frequencies are boosted / reflected. Switching off the auto EQ reveals a very hollow, bassy sound so I know there is plenty of midrange / upper midrange boosting occurring from the autotune EQ results.

An observation of a particularly nice touch is that the audio menu always returns to the place you left off when you select it. This is helpful when tuning on the run, say you make an adjustment to the tweeter level, play it for a few miles, you can easily and quickly get back to that menu just by entering the audio menu and re-adjust as necessary. I'm sure this has led to arriving at a more refined tune in a shorter amount of time.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 05-26-2012   #58
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Well the Pioneer autotune officially stinks. DEX owners- invest in an RTA setup ASAP to get the most out of your hardware investment. Posted in the "technical" forum but also deserves to be posted here as well-
OK- first series of (True) RTA sessions were run yesterday and I learned a ton- not finished yet but the end result in my "new" sound is nothing short of amazing- EVERY CD sounds good now- no more thin sounding older CDs, older recordings, bad recordings, etc. Once you approach a realistic frequency curve everything sounds good- maybe with minor adjustments but nothing where you want to actually avoid playing certain CDs.
I did a series of (9) RTA captures using 20-20K pink noise from my Shefield Lab "My Disk" CD (track 43 if you're keeping score at home).
I used the popular Dayton audio mic. Based on the flatness of the mic, the flatness of my multimedia laptop's sound and graphics card I did not calibrate either device. I was looking for relative curve differences and not precise measurements within a db or so. As it turned out the initial curve was so way out of whack that fine calibration did not matter.
The (9) measurements consisted of (3) microphone positions at (3) volume settings, (all positions at nose height, center of driver's seat)
Mic aimed 45 degrees left, mic aimed straight ahead, mic aimed 45 degrees right, each position seeing volume settings of 20 (moderate) 30 (fairly loud) and 40 (very loud). I then "averaged" the left, center and right positions for each volume level.
The center measurement was nearly identical to the average of all three, and there was not much difference between the curve shapes of the 30 and 40 volume positions. As a time saver for future sessions I will use the mic aimed center and volume position 30, this will give good results to fine tune the curve.
So here is the "curve" from my system, the one that was really not very satisfactory.
OK- first series of (True) RTA sessions were run yesterday and I learned a ton- not finished yet but the end result in my "new" sound is nothing short of amazing- EVERY CD sounds good now- no more thin sounding older CDs, older recordings, bad recordings, etc. Once you approach a realistic frequency curve everything sounds good- maybe with minor adjustments but nothing where you want to actually avoid playing certain CDs.
I did a series of (9) RTA captures using 20-20K pink noise from my Shefield Lab "My Disk" CD (track 43 if you're keeping score at home).
I used the popular Dayton audio mic. Based on the flatness of the mic, the flatness of my multimedia laptop's sound and graphics card I did not calibrate either device. I was looking for relative curve differences and not precise measurements within a db or so. As it turned out the initial curve was so way out of whack that fine calibration did not matter.
The (9) measurements consisted of (3) microphone positions at (3) volume settings, (all positions at nose height, center of driver's seat)
Mic aimed 45 degrees left, mic aimed straight ahead, mic aimed 45 degrees right, each position seeing volume settings of 20 (moderate) 30 (fairly loud) and 40 (very loud). I then "averaged" the left, center and right positions for each volume level.
The center measurement was nearly identical to the average of all three, and there was not much difference between the curve shapes of the 30 and 40 volume positions. As a time saver for future sessions I will use the mic aimed center and volume position 30, this will give good results to fine tune the curve.
So here is the "curve" from my system, the one that was really not very satisfactory.
The general shape of the curve is OK, but the trouble starts at around 300hz where it takes a 8db nose dive on its way to 500hz, where it abruptly starts climbing as it approaches 800Hz which is nearly 18db above the previous region of the curve! As you follow from 800Hz to 5Khz (crossover frequency) the shape and slope are nice, but that whole plateau region of midrange frequencies is nominally 10db higher than the flat region between 150Hz and 300Hz.
No wonder the sound was occasionally very harsh, midrange frequencies from 800Hz to 5Khz were in effect boosted 10db! Thanks Pioneer autotune!!!!!!!!
I would have NEVER been able to account for this by ear- the curve is just too extreme to imagine.
Unfortunately the EQ on the deck is limited in range and making 10db cuts did not sound reasonable. So I lowered the level of the mid-bass drivers by 5db and made 5db cuts from 800Hz to 5Khz.
I then remeasured with True RTA (did not save those curves) and it seemed much better.
Quite simply the new sound is what I have been missing all along. It is awesome.
I will remeasure later today based on some refinement to the True RTA settings that I used initially, like speed, sample frequency (averaging) and to turn off peak hold.
Quite honestly unless you are a truly experienced by-ear tuner I doubt anyone could get the most out of their system without an RTA analysis as well as having flexible capability of the system's output and adjustment.

As a reference to DEX owners I will run an RTA session using the supplied Pioneer autotune mic and compare it against a higher quality microphone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rta_session_1.jpg (47.8 KB, 164 views)

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 06-05-2012   #59
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Update 6/5/2012:

Still trying to perfrct the "tune" using RTA tools. Getting closer but has a setback because my laptop sound driver would not register the SPL of frequencies above 5Khz.

In the initial settings menu there is a switch for "digital attenuator".

Quote:

Correcting distorted sound
When listening to a CD or other source on
which the recording level is high, setting the
level of each frequency to high may result in
distortion. You can switch the digital attenua
tor to low to reduce distortion.
! Sound quality is better at the high setting
so this setting is usually used.
1 Use MULTI-CONTROL to select
Digital ATT in the initial setting menu.
Refer to Adjusting initial settings on page 35.
2 Press MULTI-CONTROL to select the digital
attenuator level.
Pressing MULTI-CONTROL repeatedly will
switch between High (high) and Low (low)
and that status will be displayed.

I wound up turning it to "low" yesterday becaues some of the vocals on a CD sounded a litle raspy / distorted.

It did sound better in the low position. More listening to come about this feature. I had first understood this to be an aid when playing digital media but not so.

Based on the burried menu layer it's difficult to do a quick A-B comparison but I do find the "low" position sounds noticeably cleaner.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 07-08-2012   #60
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Update July 8th, 2012.
Peace everybody, hope your audio projects are reaping many rewards.

In the ongoing exploration of the RTA process I was having great difficulty in achieving consistently good sound quality over a variety of the music I listen to.
I discovered a fundamental flaw in the method however. I was basically trying to tune over the Pioneer autoEQ results, which in effect is "un-tuning" the resulting Pioneer curve. So basically the Pioneer autotune creates this EQ curve (which looks like God knows what) and I was trying to use RTA and the 31-band graphic EQ on top of this. No wonder the sound was strained and artificial (for lack of a better term).

So in a fresh start, I turned the auto EQ off. Then I listened to the system completely flat for a week or so. While it did not sound spectacular, it did sound completely clean, easy to listen to and more importantly sounded like this for every CD I played. Gone was the strained processed sound and occasional harshness. I could also turn the volume up extremely loud and it would sound great. No longer did I have to reach for the EQ or crossover or network level controls on a harsh Mark Lanegan vocal, for example. Everything was CLEAN. This was promising, I thought. Needed a little work but promising.
After running flat for a week, I put the mic to the sound and did an RTA session. It showed a very high bass and mid bass region (plus 10-15db or so) and a few peaks in the midrange and lower treble regions.

I made a few EQ cuts in these areas, attacking the peaks with a moderate cut, then a smaller cut on either side of the peak so as to smooth the transition in the system from unit to amp to speakers.

I have lived with this for about 2-weeks or so and I must say it does sound very nice.

In an experiment I did switch the auto EQ back on a few times. The strained midrange / vocal sound returned immediately, although the bass did sound more punchy and dynamic.
I will soon do an RTA session to see what the bass region of the auto EQ looks like and see if I can duplicate it with a little EQ magic.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 07-09-2012   #61
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

even i dont like the auto eq of p99 although the auto ta is quite accurate and brings the sub infront
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Old 08-18-2012   #62
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Update 8/18/12:

The DEX continues to out perform the more the rest of the system is upgraded. An upgrade to a 3-way front stage with HAT wideband drivers and proper tuning have brought the SQ to a new level. Clean, detailed, accurate and a sound stage that is 3-dimensionsal and high.

I do have one "downer" to report though. The volume control seems to have slowed down- in other words, when I rapidly spin the volume knob the volume sometimes does not change, changes very slowly or even reverses a little.
If I spin it slowly, all is good but it is still a little issue. I do wish the volume control responded better- it seems to take too long to turn the volume up or down substantially- especially if you're in a hurry, like a toll booth, conversation, etc. Because we all know that we cannot listen at anything other than a very high level!

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 08-19-2012   #63
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

I'm considering upgrading my Premier 980BT to this. Where is the best place to purchase the 99?
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Old 08-20-2012   #64
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

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Old 08-20-2012   #65
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I noticed that same thing with the volume on mine. It is annoying but I kept my remote attached to my steering wheel and just use the mute button instead. But when I install it in my new Accord, Ill use the steering wheel controls and wont have my remote strapped to the wheel so Ill have to use the UI for more things. The buttons on this thing are awful and almost unusable. Pioneer built a superb head unit and one of the best in history but the UI is just horrible.

But those gripes aside, the P99 truly is a remarkable piece of equipment. Enough processing Power for 99.9% of applications, beautiful Build and design, pure sonic goodness and totally noise free but a horrible UI. I'd still recommend one and buy it again if I had to do it all over.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2

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Old 08-20-2012   #66
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

I feel that the unit doesn't like mixing odd an even order slope. For example, everytime I do 6dB (or 18) HP and 24dB LP between mid and subwoofer would always guarantee an out of phase result AND off-center imaging. Flipping the phase works, but not with bass coming way from behind. Putting it back to 12/24 or 12/12 always work fine and they integrate nicely. Don't know if it's the same on my mid/tweeter (currently at 6H/12L) because I don't know how to distinguish between in phase and out of phase mid/tweet. I may switch to 12/12 in the future.

DEX-P99RS (Hi/Mid)->PRS-A900->Dynaudio MD102/MW160GT
Sub->Alpine MRD-M300->Dynaudio MW190
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Old 08-21-2012   #67
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCSVT View Post
I'm considering upgrading my Premier 980BT to this. Where is the best place to purchase the 99?
I just purchased this HU used on eBay for $750. I had been looking to pick one up for months but only for the right price. $1.2k was out of my ball park.

If you want a nice shiny new one from an authorized dealer...
Pioneer Stage 4 DEX-P99RS CD receiver/preamp at Crutchfield.com

I am really thankful for the EXTENSIVE discussion of the auto time allignment / auto eq features of this deck. It will definately be the first feature I use. Anyway thanks for everyone contribution and hopefully I can add somethings that I find after everything is going.

One final question. I have an Eclipse CD7200mkii, how big of an improvement will this deck be in your estimation?
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Old 08-21-2012   #68
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Nice review!
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Old 08-22-2012   #69
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
I noticed that same thing with the volume on mine. It is annoying but I kept my remote attached to my steering wheel and just use the mute button instead. But when I install it in my new Accord, Ill use the steering wheel controls and wont have my remote strapped to the wheel so Ill have to use the UI for more things. The buttons on this thing are awful and almost unusable. Pioneer built a superb head unit and one of the best in history but the UI is just horrible.

But those gripes aside, the P99 truly is a remarkable piece of equipment. Enough processing Power for 99.9% of applications, beautiful Build and design, pure sonic goodness and totally noise free but a horrible UI. I'd still recommend one and buy it again if I had to do it all over.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2
thanks for the info. good to know the unit is not failing. if you want a really bad UI check out some of the other pioneer HUs. I had one where the multifunction control looked like a mini satellite dish- it hardly ever executed the command you were expecting.
i also read where touch screen head units are considered too distracting. sound quality not withstanding i personally would not want a full touch screen UI for a Car headunit.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 08-22-2012   #70
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82801BA View Post
I feel that the unit doesn't like mixing odd an even order slope. For example, everytime I do 6dB (or 18) HP and 24dB LP between mid and subwoofer would always guarantee an out of phase result AND off-center imaging. Flipping the phase works, but not with bass coming way from behind. Putting it back to 12/24 or 12/12 always work fine and they integrate nicely. Don't know if it's the same on my mid/tweeter (currently at 6H/12L) because I don't know how to distinguish between in phase and out of phase mid/tweet. I may switch to 12/12 in the future.
good point- i have noticed that different slope combinations seem to do more than just change the frequencies a driver is playing / not playing. what does it sound like to you? i don't think it sounds completely out of phase but definitely different and it does affect the centering. i would like to be able to understand this more- to know exactly what i'm getting when a given slope combination is set for a given network.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Old 08-22-2012   #71
 
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

When I do 6/24 the subwoofer plays along with the left side speaker. Lost all the punches and sound muddy. Flip the phase to REV and it's much tighter, but the bass seems to play by itself (from the back). The image appears to come from the right side.

Also, I don't know if it's only me. My subwoofers are almost always TA in the 154/155in region no matter what slope I choose.

DEX-P99RS (Hi/Mid)->PRS-A900->Dynaudio MD102/MW160GT
Sub->Alpine MRD-M300->Dynaudio MW190
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Old 08-27-2012   #72
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

I suggest NOT to spin the volume fast. You'll wear out the volume control, and what will end up happening is the volume will sort of "skip" while turning and not move up or down. I believe the pot is a bit fragile. Having installed and use many, you can tell which are older and which are new, or haven't been used as much by the feel of the volume control. Brand new, the volume basically feels the same as the tuning knob.

I replaced mine a bit ago since it was a pain to control volume. I use much more finesse while controlling the volume now.

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Old 09-03-2012   #73
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Update 9/3/2012:

I'm planning to upgrade my subwoofer driver to help the deep bass output below 60hz or so. My current drivers are OK but I believe they can be beat in overall SQ and extended low frequency response without resorting to a ported enclosure once again.

The new drivers are on order (Scanspeak Discovery 12") and from what I have read these should offer a big improvement and shift the F3 frequency to about 37Hz or so down from est. 44 Hz. The plots look really nice down as low as 20Hz.

To help this effort I just read that the P99's SW network has some attractive High Pass frequency settings.
Currently I have my amplifier's infrasonic filter activated. It is preset to 30Hz, 24db slope. I use it because even a subwoofer with a sealed enclosure sounds better and tighter with it activated. I have tested this extensively.
However, to help increase the output of the lowest frequencies between 20 to 30Hz I plan to deactivate the infrasonic on the amp and use the P99 SW HPF to control the infrasonic.
I can choose either 20, 25 or 31 Hz and every slope is available from PASS to 36db.
Talk about versatility! Plus it will be nice to try this real time from the driver's seat with some reference deep bass tracks.
I have some older progressive rock that I love that has some deep bass organ passages. Really deep. I was kind of disappointed the last time I played it because I remember it sounding so much better with the ported enclosure. However I am NOT going back to ported. The SQ of the sealed is too great of a trade off to lose again. Therefore the upgrade in driver for a lower F3 as well as a little infrasonic / HPF experimentation with the trusty and versatile DEX P99.
Say tuned and I will report back when I install the new sub.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Such a awesome head unit. Does anyone know where I can buy one (that's not msrp) and not from crutchfield or woofersect? Obviously this thing will cost quite a bit but there's gotta be a deal somewhere to be had. (Also looked on their website and there's no dealers for this headunit anywhere near my house :S
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Old 09-19-2012   #75
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Default Re: DEX-P99RS Ongoing Review and Discoveries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krieger88 View Post
Such a awesome head unit. Does anyone know where I can buy one (that's not msrp) and not from crutchfield or woofersect? Obviously this thing will cost quite a bit but there's gotta be a deal somewhere to be had. (Also looked on their website and there's no dealers for this headunit anywhere near my house :S
i ordered mine from crutch- great service and free harness and mounting hardware. stage 4 stuff was pulled from most dealers for some reason.

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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