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Old 09-22-2014   #26
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
I vote for a tapped horn!
LOL - I don't think that would work with these drivers. Efficiency is low, which means that it might be impossible to come up with a TH alignment that works well and can be physically realized. Plus a TH with two of them would likely be too damned big for my car - here's an example of how much space one 40Hz TH based on a 12" driver takes up in my car's trunk:
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Old 09-22-2014   #27
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
I vote for a tapped horn!
Here's my front loaded horn with the Alpine Type S 10":

Sealed Box versus Infinite Baffle



It's big - about three cubic feet. A couple of twelves would fill up the entire cabin, unfortunately.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 09-23-2014   #28
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

I've always wanted to build a horn for home theater use. Maybe one of these years I'll get around to it.

How does the cat affect the tuning?

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Old 09-23-2014   #29
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

It doesn't have to be a positive flare TH!

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Old 09-23-2014   #30
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by 77'cj7 View Post
I've always wanted to build a horn for home theater use. Maybe one of these years I'll get around to it.

How does the cat affect the tuning?
It's funny, I'm pretty close to trashing all of my low frequency horns.
Not 100% sure, because they work fine, but here in San Diego they're nightmarishly large.

All of this is completely subjective, so take it with a grain of salt, but here's some things I've noticed, based on running front loaded horns and tapped horns for a few years now:

1) I find that nothing improves the sound of bass more than running multiple subs. I've found that even three or four utterly cheap-ass subs sound really good once you get them dialed in. At one point I had eight subs, but I've cut that down to three. In particular, varying the height makes a huge difference.
2) The efficiency gain is real. My Alpine dual 8" Type R (Tapped Horn for the Lazy and Impatient - diyAudio), in particular, works very very well. Unfortunately, the efficiency gain is a pain in the ass! When running multiple subs you want the output to be fairly consistent. For instance, if you have three subs, you don't want one to be 10dB louder than the rest. And that's what sucks about horn subs. The gain is real, but it's also a real problem!

At the moment, the thing I'm really in love with is the ability of a front loaded horn to move the air in the room. For instance, I have a pair of horn-loaded 3" woofers that I'm using for midbasses, (Ikea Midbass Horn - diyAudio) and even at fairly low SPLs you can feel the air vibrate. This really surprised me, because I'd generally thought that the 'punch in the chest' effect came in around 60hz.

But my 3" front loaded horn only plays down to 150hz, and it gives you that effect, even on male vocals. For instance, if you're watching a movie and someone with a deep voice is speaking, you can feel the guttural impact of their voice in the room.

It's a fun effect! And it's an effect that's impossible with vented boxes, tapped horns, back loaded horns, etc.

So I'm making a bigger and badder version of that box, using a 7" woofer, instead of dual 3" woofers.



TLDR: I'm thinking about trashing my horn subs. But I'm also thinking about horn loading my speakers down to 100hz. From 20hz to 100hz I would use an array of sealed subs. All speakers would be monopoles, particularly because I get a kick out of a sub's ability to pressurize a room.

This Danley video of his front loaded horns shows how this works:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgQ-tu_mAwM


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 09-10-2016   #31
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

I noticed these this morning while giving the car a thorough clean. Hairline cracks in the plastic dust-cover of one of my Alpine Type R subwoofers. One of them extends almost from the edge to the center of the cone, while the other is not so long.

What could have caused this? These subs don't really see a lot of power - 600W each at most, and not that often either.

This is the first time I've seen something like this. I've seen cracked dust caps before, but that's usually when they're paper and they've been subjected to dry-rot. What would cause plastic to crack like that?
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Old 10-14-2016   #32
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
I noticed these this morning while giving the car a thorough clean. Hairline cracks in the plastic dust-cover of one of my Alpine Type R subwoofers. One of them extends almost from the edge to the center of the cone, while the other is not so long.

What could have caused this? These subs don't really see a lot of power - 600W each at most, and not that often either.

This is the first time I've seen something like this. I've seen cracked dust caps before, but that's usually when they're paper and they've been subjected to dry-rot. What would cause plastic to crack like that?
It's gotta be a fatigue failure, right? Flexing of the cone over and over eventually resulting in a crack? Unless you can find an impact site that instigated the crack

On this video you can see the folds in the surround which I believe indicates asymmetrical loading of the cone/surround. With the HMR surround plus a SUPER rigid cone that doesn't seem possible, but here we are. You are sure it's a crack and not a scratch, right?

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Old 10-14-2016   #33
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by 94VG30DE View Post
It's gotta be a fatigue failure, right? Flexing of the cone over and over eventually resulting in a crack? Unless you can find an impact site that instigated the crack
There are no marks on the dust cover that suggest something hit it, so it looks like fatigue. It's definitely a crack, and there are more than one of them too. The plastic dust cover seems to be quite thin, thinner than I'd have expected it to be. And more pliable too. I'm comparing them to the plastic dust covers on my old Infinity 122.7W subs, which appear to be pretty tough. H*ell, someone's shoe once fell and bounced around for awhile on one of the 122.7Ws when I had them in use, and the plastic dust cover wasn't even scratched .

I suspect that the damage may be due to ambient heat (I live in the Tropics), not from over-driving the subs. Only one appears to be damaged at the moment though.

While I'm disappointed (very much so), I wonder how much mass the dust cover is adding to the 12D2's cone? If it's quite a bit (like the old JBL 1200GTis), removing it entirely may increase Fs and reduce Qts, making the 12D2 a suitable driver for another little project I've been considering...

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Old 10-16-2016   #34
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

Do tell Brian....

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Old 03-06-2017   #35
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
I vote for a tapped horn!

I just made a tapped horn for one. It sounds so much better..(and louder). I didnt measure the SPL levels, but its easily twice as loud as it was in the 1.25 cu ft sealed box.

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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

I used the THAM12 plans from the martinsson blog.

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Old 03-06-2017   #37
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

The THAM12 is a 50 Hz TH designed for an entirely different driver. The Alpine Type R 12D2 is not a really good match for it. It requires a driver with specs that are a little more pro audio in nature.

(note: I used the HornResp THAM12 sim parameters from Martin's website. I do have a few minor issues with how he came up with those parameters, but still the predicted result should be close enough for most purposes).
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Old 03-06-2017   #38
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Do tell Brian....
If the mass of the plastic dust cover is significant, removing it will reduce Qts and increase Fs, which might make this driver a bit more TH-friendly

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Old 03-06-2017   #39
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

Brian is right, that sub isn't appropriate for that box.

BUT - there's a possible fix.


If you stuff the first 2/3rds of the box with fiberglass insulation, you can reduce the ripple to almost nothing. A mic is the best way to do this, but if you don't have a mic, download an RTA app for your phone. Basically stuff it until it's flat.


The fiberglass is also going to raise the impedance of your subwoofer. This means you'll be able to apply more power to it. On the downside, the overall efficiency of the system will be lower than a properly designed tapped horn. Still, even Danley himself uses fiberglass stuffing in some of his tapped horns.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 03-06-2017   #40
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Those who know me know that I'm always on the lookout for good, cheap 12" drivers for car audio and other duty. 12" drivers seem to hit the sweet spot of size and performance, and because of the high costs of shipping and duties, it's important to me that the cost be kept as low as possible.
This afternoon I learned how expensive it is to ship stuff globally.

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In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 03-06-2017   #41
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

Damn... I should have posted here before I sealed the tapped horn up. Its glued, biscuit joint and stapled MDF. I doubt I can get that box stuffed without destroying it.

I just bought a UMIK mic to tune the system. I'll post up some graphs once I get REW figured out.

I still say it's sounds so much better as a tapped horn than it did in a sealed box. I'm only putting 800W to it though.
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Old 03-07-2017   #42
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2



I had the same problem when I built the tapped horn that I use for my home theater. I wound up just putting the fiberglass in the mouth. That's probably not ideal, but for a 'peaky' tapped horn like yours, it's better than nothing. (The pic above isn't my horn.)

Another 'trick' is to mess around with where the mouth is. For instance, in my Mazda CX-5, I designed the tapped horn so that the exit is on both sides of the box. The idea is to vary the pathlengths, reducing peaks and dips.

So that can help too; try different orientations of the box, use whatever is smoothest.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 03-08-2017   #43
 
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Thumbs up Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunafoot View Post
Damn... I should have posted here before I sealed the tapped horn up. Its glued, biscuit joint and stapled MDF. I doubt I can get that box stuffed without destroying it.

I just bought a UMIK mic to tune the system. I'll post up some graphs once I get REW figured out.

I still say it's sounds so much better as a tapped horn than it did in a sealed box. I'm only putting 800W to it though.
I can't wait to see the posted measurements.

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Old 03-08-2017   #44
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
[font=verdana]Brian is right, that sub isn't appropriate for that box.

BUT - there's a possible fix.
Unfortunately while the stuffing will deal with the peaks, we're still ending up with what's basically a 50 Hz TH for a driver that can do much, much better than that.

For example, here's a *quick* model I did of a TH for the Alpine Type R12D2 that does down into the 30's at the same SPL level, in a box that's about 126 l net (4.6 cu.ft.). And that's a single-expansion expansion alignment. A dual-expansion one should be even better.

Of course one still has to find a way to fold that TH into a box, but still
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Old 03-21-2017   #45
 
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Default Re: Alpine Type R 12D2

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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
I'm resisting the temptation to see how they'd perform in a vented alignment...
Why ? Do it !
They like a 22-25hz tuning between 2 and 3cuft each.
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