Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit - Page 10 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 05-01-2016   #226
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

The order has been placed!

I only have 10 days off(not in a row) between now and the end of July, so let's hope I'll have the time to play with it before then.

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Old 05-13-2016   #227
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I must admit, I am still horribly confused.


Some questions....


1. Since this EQ creates filters for left and right channels, does this mean we need to mute all speakers on 1 side of the Car and measure. Then mute the other side and measure?

Or do we measure with everything playing together?



2. I see that it is suggested to set only crossovers and time alignment on the traditional DSP, and leave the EQ to the APL1. However, setting a crossover on a DSP without using EQ is pretty much impossible. Electrical crossover filters will never have the expected acoustic result without EQ. For example, if you want a Linkwitz 24 dB slope @ 500 Hz, you will never be setting the electrical filter at 24 dB / 500Hz unless you use EQ to correct the response. So how do you know what you are doing with the crossovers in this case?

Furthermore, if you don't use independent EQ on a single driver to correct response then your crossover slope will probably be all over the place. It could start at a 24 dB slope but then drop off to a 36 or 48 just based on the natural rolloff of the speaker. So I am having a hard time understanding how a 2 channel EQ can correct response in the crossover region if it's not able to apply filters to the independent drivers. In other words, let's say your crossover region is 500Hz. The left side midrange Speaker needs -3dB of correction at 520 Hz. But the left side midbass needs +2 dB at the same frequency. How is this conflict resolved without independent EQ?

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Old 05-13-2016   #228
 
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Default Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

You do mute and measure left and right separate, you end up with a left and right filter to apply.The apl1 goes after the hu and before the dsp if that helps any...
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Old 05-13-2016   #229
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

subterFUSE,

this is also what i have done
APL only doing LR equ, not independent driver
if I have different response in the crossover region between LR, I do the equ independent for each driver only to equ the diff

and also in apl workshop, there is the capability to play the impulse only left or right channel only


Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
I must admit, I am still horribly confused.


Some questions....


1. Since this EQ creates filters for left and right channels, does this mean we need to mute all speakers on 1 side of the Car and measure. Then mute the other side and measure?

Or do we measure with everything playing together?



2. I see that it is suggested to set only crossovers and time alignment on the traditional DSP, and leave the EQ to the APL1. However, setting a crossover on a DSP without using EQ is pretty much impossible. Electrical crossover filters will never have the expected acoustic result without EQ. For example, if you want a Linkwitz 24 dB slope @ 500 Hz, you will never be setting the electrical filter at 24 dB / 500Hz unless you use EQ to correct the response. So how do you know what you are doing with the crossovers in this case?

Furthermore, if you don't use independent EQ on a single driver to correct response then your crossover slope will probably be all over the place. It could start at a 24 dB slope but then drop off to a 36 or 48 just based on the natural rolloff of the speaker. So I am having a hard time understanding how a 2 channel EQ can correct response in the crossover region if it's not able to apply filters to the independent drivers. In other words, let's say your crossover region is 500Hz. The left side midrange Speaker needs -3dB of correction at 520 Hz. But the left side midbass needs +2 dB at the same frequency. How is this conflict resolved without independent EQ?

Last edited by neoysj; 05-13-2016 at 08:01 PM..
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Old 05-14-2016   #230
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

It is not necessary to mute the opposite side, as in the APL Workshop during the tests one should select wether left front will be measured or right.

I do understand the concern about crossover points settings. APL will not change the electrical filter, while the acoustic point might move on after EQ. This is a task of APL to correct both sides to the same target curve. And this works amazing, even some people do not understand why and how. I really do not understand how my mobile phone works (in all the technical details), but I just use it.

After EQ there is unlimited number of after-EQ corrections that could be made in a very advanced PEQ. If the box is connected to the laptop by USB cable it is even possible to upload these corrections to the desired preset individually for right and left channels.

With APL-3 comprising six channels it is possible also to EQ separate drives, but why to make own life so complicated as the APL method can make its optimization work perfectly for the whole side despite previously done XO settings. One should give his drivers some head in order to avoid burning of the tweeters and avoiding the regions close to max on the impedance curve.

XO pre-work is a technical science, while application of the APL method is just a fun. And in order to make this fun optimal one should not forget about TA. It will create better circumstances for the APL to make its job, including solving of the minimum phase problems.

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Last edited by Alextaastrup; 05-14-2016 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 05-16-2016   #231
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Skimmed through the thread. Got all drooling and excited about this box, especially hearing good words about it from Hanatsu.

So i am currently an MS-8 user. I have 3 way active front, 2 way central channel with a 6" midbass, rears and a sub. I just love the Logic 7 and don't wanna lose it.

But... i wanna try these two devices in a tandem.

The thing is, in my 2007 Cayenne i get the sound signal from MOST optics which is converted by moBridge into TOSLINK, fed to a cheap DAC and then RCA'ed to MS-8.

Since APL1 has both digital and analog IOs, I would love to see the following signal path with APL1:

HU --MOST--> moBridge --TOSLINK--> APL1 --RCA-->MS-8

So, the quuestion becomes - is it possible to use APL1 as both a room correction unit and a DAC?

And i am wondering what is the best way to do the measurements with APL1 while used in a tandem with MS-8:

- Do the autotune with MS-8, switch to stereo and turn off the rears, do the sweeps, apply FIRs and then switch back to Logic 7? This way, front speakers and a sub get the most correction. What happens to rears and a central channel is unknown.

- Do the autotune, disable MS-8 processing, run sweeps with the APL1, apply FIRs and then re-do the MS-8 autotune? This way, we correct sound for the front Speaker and a sub and then we recalivrate MS-8, central channel and rears get their correction too.

- Any other ideas?
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Old 05-16-2016   #232
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

How much is this thing?
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Old 05-16-2016   #233
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
Skimmed through the thread. Got all drooling and excited about this box, especially hearing good words about it from Hanatsu.

So i am currently an MS-8 user. I have 3 way active front, 2 way central channel with a 6" midbass, rears and a sub. I just love the Logic 7 and don't wanna lose it.
First, how do you do 3way+sides+2way cc+sub with 8 channels?
I guess you have an crossov3r for the cc, but also for the front between midranges and tweeters?



Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
But... i wanna try these two devices in a tandem.

The thing is, in my 2007 Cayenne i get the sound signal from MOST optics which is converted by moBridge into TOSLINK, fed to a cheap DAC and then RCA'ed to MS-8.

Since APL1 has both digital and analog IOs, I would love to see the following signal path with APL1:

HU --MOST--> moBridge --TOSLINK--> APL1 --RCA-->MS-8

So, the quuestion becomes - is it possible to use APL1 as both a room correction unit and a DAC?
Yes, and it can also be used as a switch:
- digital and analog outs are always active
- digital in takes over analog when there's a signal
- there's a jumper to select what kind of digital in (optical or toslink)



Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
And i am wondering what is the best way to do the measurements with APL1 while used in a tandem with MS-8:

- Do the autotune with MS-8, switch to stereo and turn off the rears, do the sweeps, apply FIRs and then switch back to Logic 7? This way, front speakers and a sub get the most correction. What happens to rears and a central channel is unknown.

- Do the autotune, disable MS-8 processing, run sweeps with the APL1, apply FIRs and then re-do the MS-8 autotune? This way, we correct sound for the front Speaker and a sub and then we recalivrate MS-8, central channel and rears get their correction too.

- Any other ideas?
In both cases here you'll mess up your center channel, because it will receive some corrections (x2!) based on other driver's response (L&R only). Phase and amplitude would probably be completely off.

But there should be a way, I recently had both APL & ms8 for a month or two maybe, and they definitely worked very well together, but when they focus on the same channels.
I didn't have a center channel but I really enjoy L7 too, just for the surround with side & rears (I like it so much that I even tried 2xms8).


So for now only 2 ways I can think of:

1 - if you're ok to remove the cc of the equation (but still L7 with sides).
APL feeding the ms8, so its filters would impact everything behind, no big deal for sides I think. This way the filters would be optimum for L&R 3 way & sub
> Calibrate ms8 first, to the best possible, with EQ and sub boost if needed. (just don't change this later)
> Then put sides to zero, L7 to off, measure and "calibrate" APL, done.
You'll cascade the brain Power of both units.
(it might not work for you, but it worked very well for me).

2 - if you really want to keep the CC:
Buy 2 APL1, one feeding the ms8, one dedicated to cc and sub so this time after the ms8.
> like in #1
> maybe put CC to 0 as well during front APL measurements
> then measure CC and sub independently for 2nd APL
That could probably be great too, but seems very complex to manage...


I'd start easy with 3 way + sub.
I still miss L7 sometime now, but the soundstage is so good now with APL that I can wait (I plan to re-insert the ms8 one day).

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Old 05-17-2016   #234
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
First, how do you do 3way+sides+2way cc+sub with 8 channels?
I guess you have an crossov3r for the cc, but also for the front between midranges and tweeters?
Yes! Crossovers for central channel, for the front (mids and tweets), and rears are passive.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Yes, and it can also be used as a switch:
- digital and analog outs are always active
- digital in takes over analog when there's a signal
- there's a jumper to select what kind of digital in (optical or toslink)
Nice to know. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
In both cases here you'll mess up your center channel, because it will receive some corrections (x2!) based on other driver's response (L&R only). Phase and amplitude would probably be completely off.

But there should be a way, I recently had both APL & ms8 for a month or two maybe, and they definitely worked very well together, but when they focus on the same channels.
I didn't have a center channel but I really enjoy L7 too, just for the surround with side & rears (I like it so much that I even tried 2xms8).
Yeah, the central channel is a nice thing. I kinda got used to it so much and i'd hate to waste so much effort installing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
So for now only 2 ways I can think of:



1 - if you're ok to remove the cc of the equation (but still L7 with sides).
APL feeding the ms8, so its filters would impact everything behind, no big deal for sides I think. This way the filters would be optimum for L&R 3 way & sub
> Calibrate ms8 first, to the best possible, with EQ and sub boost if needed. (just don't change this later)
> Then put sides to zero, L7 to off, measure and "calibrate" APL, done.
You'll cascade the brain Power of both units.
(it might not work for you, but it worked very well for me).

2 - if you really want to keep the CC:
Buy 2 APL1, one feeding the ms8, one dedicated to cc and sub so this time after the ms8.
> like in #1
> maybe put CC to 0 as well during front APL measurements
> then measure CC and sub independently for 2nd APL
That could probably be great too, but seems very complex to manage...
Well, yeah.

But what if i let the MS-8 do the final tune? Turn the L7 and rears off, tune with APL1 and apply a FIR filter which resembles the curve that MS-8 tries to get to, then recalibrate with MS-8 again. In this case, MS-8 gets a very nice signal from the L/R fronts and sub, tunes the central channel and rears.

I understand that a lot of the sound comes from central channel with L7 turned on, maybe more than 60%. That means that i won't be getting much help from APL1.

Another way is two APL1s, yes. Or a CarPC with a VST host and APL1 plugin, which is gonna be cheaper, i guess.
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Old 05-17-2016   #235
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
...But what if i let the MS-8 do the final tune? Turn the L7 and rears off, tune with APL1 and apply a FIR filter which resembles the curve that MS-8 tries to get to, then recalibrate with MS-8 again. In this case, MS-8 gets a very nice signal from the L/R fronts and sub, tunes the central channel and rears.
Well think about it differently, it would still be like trying to apply a correction from your rear right driver to your front left woofer for example.

And ms8 cannot do the final tune, you'll need to set TA and XO on the ms8 to calibrate at least one time for the APL to get some measurements.
And it you want to recalibrate again once APL is in the loop, then you'll mess with its filters (based on first ms8 calibration %).

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Old 05-18-2016   #236
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
And ms8 cannot do the final tune, you'll need to set TA and XO on the ms8 to calibrate at least one time for the APL to get some measurements.
Um... yes. Well, almost. The process as i see it:
- do the initial setup with MS-8 with APL1 installed before it and turned to bypass mode.
- Switch MS-8 to stereo (L7 disabled), turn off the rears so only the front L/R and a sub are active. Disable processing.
- Do the sweeps
- Apply the APL1 filters with a house curve that maximally resembles what MS-8 tries to achieve.
- Recalibrate MS-8 once again. MS-8 will detect a house curve that resembles what it tries to achieve and hopefully won't mess with it. Central and rear speakers will be corrected by MS-8, though.

Not optimal, i agree. Well, must be tested

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
And it you want to recalibrate again once APL is in the loop, then you'll mess with its filters (based on first ms8 calibration %).
Not if processing is disabled. With this option, only XOs are active, i think.

But quite possible, such setup will just create a mess

Thinking of a MacMini, 8 I/O channel sound card and a VST version of APL1. But with this setup i might just get rid of MS-8 as well and do the whole processing (including 5.1 matrix processing) on a CarPC. Not as convenient as MS-8 with time alignment and EQing, but this way it should sound better.
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Old 05-18-2016   #237
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I see, well ms8 off will disable TA & EQ, so it's asking a lot from the APL but maybe.
alexstastruup has a passive front 3 way with APl I think, he might help.

Yeah try the macmini with APl, then I'll follow you soon
But you could also try just one APL first

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Old 05-18-2016   #238
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

In the APL1, after the main sweep for the L and R Channel, is it necessary to do the on axis (short) sweep in the car?
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Old 05-18-2016   #239
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoysj View Post
In the APL1, after the main sweep for the L and R Channel, is it necessary to do the on axis (short) sweep in the car?
Not sure about the question, since there's no "main" sweep, but a bunch of them, no limit, so including on axis yes.

Horny Froggy...
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Old 05-18-2016   #240
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Not sure about the question, since there's no "main" sweep, but a bunch of them, no limit, so including on axis yes.
Raimonds has suggested me to do additional sweep for "on axis" measurement for Speaker that has a strong directivity
the result then become additional correction to the main sweep result

Is it necessary to do this step in Car environment?
or somebody here already try this?
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Old 05-18-2016   #241
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoysj View Post
Raimonds has suggested me to do additional sweep for "on axis" measurement for Speaker that has a strong directivity
the result then become additional correction to the main sweep result

Is it necessary to do this step in Car environment?
or somebody here already try this?
Ha ok so yes it could also be required, depending of your setup.
I think Hanastu had to correct some tweeters in waveguide on the dash like that (few posts older in this thread maybe?).

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Old 05-18-2016   #242
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Ha ok so yes it could also be required, depending of your setup.
I think Hanastu had to correct some tweeters in waveguide on the dash like that (few posts older in this thread maybe?).
Thanks a lot for the info


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Old 05-19-2016   #243
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoysj View Post
Raimonds has suggested me to do additional sweep for "on axis" measurement for Speaker that has a strong directivity
the result then become additional correction to the main sweep result

Is it necessary to do this step in Car environment?
or somebody here already try this?
Yes, I did it twice in two different setups.

I was tired of the HF output comming from the closest tweeter and the method worked for me. The result was amazing and very! audible. Sound was comming from everywhere. (Tweeters were mounted in the front door triangles - faced almost back).

Second time I have tried the same procedure with the TW's placed close to the windshield at the angle of about 25 degrees from the on-axis position, meaning much less reflections from the side Windows and other surrounding surfaces. The result is almost neglictable. Rajmonds means it is ok, as efficiency of this extra-test is varying depending of the actual of placement of drivers.

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Old 05-20-2016   #244
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Looking for help understanding these graphs.

Left Side:




Right Side:




Why is the yellow line tracking the response at the low end, but then goes straight on the upper range?

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Old 05-20-2016   #245
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Did you use any options in the EQ frequency limiter? I guess it could give this kind of results

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Old 05-20-2016   #246
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

No. I don't think so.




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Old 05-20-2016   #247
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Must be the time window then

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I thought I was using the recommended window for cars?


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I use 50 or 100ms, usually 50.

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Old 05-21-2016   #250
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Looking for help understanding these graphs.

Left Side:

Right Side:

Why is the yellow line tracking the response at the low end, but then goes straight on the upper range?
Hello,

It is because HF "limiter" is starting work too low (150Hz and 1kHz).
And this is caused by a dominance of a sub - too much it is.
What should be done?
Let`s reduce a sub by about 6 dB.
Than let`s use target curve with a setting "C" not "T"
and set HF limiter to such value that allows correction for a frequency band we need.
Good luck,

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