Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit - Page 11 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 05-21-2016   #251
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I will turn off my subwoofer and try again.


I'm surprised that my subwoofer is too loud. Everyone who listens to the Car at competitions says the sub is too low.

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Old 05-21-2016   #252
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Ok, you may turn off your sub just for test.
But it should be better just to reduce its level.
Than you will have ability to tune a sub level to meet your preference target
after APL correction will be applied.

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Old 05-21-2016   #253
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Looking for help understanding these graphs.

Left Side:




Right Side:

Also, what is going on at 3kHz?

It looks like a phase issue but that's not possible because I don't have a tweeter. The midbass and mid are crossed over at 400Hz LR24.

I tried with 2 different microphones, but the dip is still there. And it's on both left and right side. And since the mic is moved all over the interior of the Car for 300+ measurements, it can't be a modal cancellation.

Any ideas?

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Old 05-21-2016   #254
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

In such case, the problem around 3 kHz looks like a Speaker problem.
Let APL do its job on that problem.

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Old 05-22-2016   #255
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

For anyone that have issues with tonality after the target curve has been applied:

I pointed this out in Elgrosso's Build thread. It's very important to be aware of the midrange drivers upper response. Breakup nodes that ain't attenuated enough, using swallow lowpass slopes (i.e using midrange drivers beyond the omnidirectional range) might cause overcompensation in the correction curve. Measure your midrange drivers (left/right separately) to find out the Power response of the driver. Tweeters which are mounted on-axis will be directional in the higher octaves and might require the on-axis correction mentioned in the manual.

Don't use acoustic lowpass slopes shallower than 24dB/oct, it will save you trouble IME.


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Old 05-24-2016   #256
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
The order has been placed!

I only have 10 days off(not in a row) between now and the end of July, so let's hope I'll have the time to play with it before then.
Have You already tried? Results?
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Old 05-24-2016   #257
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Do we need to do any sort of level matching with the software target curve and/or microphone input gain?

I did some measurements and loaded my FIR files but the music is distorted. It's like the EQ is boosted and clipping the signal.

I wish there were some more detailed instructions on the setup, measurement process and use of the APL Workshop software.

Also, I found that my preferred target curve (similar to the whitledge) is too tilted for the APL. It cuts off the graph display on the subwoofer end of the response. Is there a limit to the tilt of the target that can be used?

Lastly, what is the difference between using a curve as C vs T? I was trying to use a target curve as T, but then told to load the target as C instead.


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Old 05-24-2016   #258
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Hello,
Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Do we need to do any sort of level matching with the software target curve and/or microphone input gain?
No, there is no such connection.

Quote:
I did some measurements and loaded my FIR files but the music is distorted. It's like the EQ is boosted and clipping the signal.
Such thing is happening when signal source level is very close to Full Scale and there is no headroom for normal signal processing. Especially if digital input of APL1 is used. The input level should be decreased or FIR filter gain.

Quote:
I wish there were some more detailed instructions on the setup, measurement process and use of the APL Workshop software.
If QSG is too short, please ask for online support.

Quote:
Also, I found that my preferred target curve (similar to the whitledge) is too tilted for the APL. It cuts off the graph display on the subwoofer end of the response. Is there a limit to the tilt of the target that can be used?
The Workshop work environment is giving as wide possibilities to control curves. Please ask for a guidance if you like.

Quote:
Lastly, what is the difference between using a curve as C vs T? I was trying to use a target curve as T, but then told to load the target as C instead.
The overall finale result of use of correction or target curve is same.
The difference is only in the way as curves are displayed.
In "C" case, the target curve is applied on measured (green) curve.
In "T" case the target curve is applied on FIR filter curve (yellow) and you can see a difference between green and yellow curves that is exactly by target curve`s value.


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Old 05-24-2016   #259
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

You should look at the impulse response, that will show you disturbances during the measurement and will help you to chose correct gating. Increasing of time duration will assist to measure the low end more accurate but will at the same time less informative for the other ranges.

No matching is necessary if you use the same target curve. I use to apply 0-settings, but it is up to you. There is an option for this in the Workshop. You might find also other settings for the limiters (both at low and high end), which will not cut the measurements and the correction curve. If there is a big difference in dB between sub and TW, please try to re-test with the lower volume for the sub. it might work.

Flat curve in APL is not as flat as for other programmes. Hanatsu has made some comparison with REW as far as I remember. Tilt can not be adjusted automaticaly. You have to correct your target curve or make correction in the PEQ C1. Being connected to the unit, C1 is able to send these corrections directly to it and they will work immediately for you.

According to Raimonds, there is no difference between T and C settings. I used to apply T for target curves and C (or -C) for other corrections, calibration files for the mic and sound card, etc.

Please check if your calibration file for your microphone is individual one, not generic. My own experience showed that application of the in-built sound card from the laptop can and (in almost all cases) will spoil test results. My DELL computer had irregularity of about 12dB at some frequencies. The remedy was to buy an external sound card with 48V supply for the condenser microphone.

It helps also to understand what is going on if you repeat measurements with the uploaded FIR-filters. Let's start with the flat target curve. You should get deviations less than 1-3dB except some modal regions and defect drivers. If you experience that low or high end are not corrected by APL, one of the possible reasons could be wrong limiters during the first test. No need to measure again. Just change the values (max -20dB, as far as I remember) and calculate once more. Add new corrections and calculate one more time. No limits her. These limiters limit calculations - not measurements.

The last question - accuracy of the final results depend much of the noise level. APL works fine if the difference between a signal and floor noise is more than 25-30dB.

Do not forget to make 3-5 tests for the same side and calculate average value for it. By this you will also see repeatibility, stability of the tested results and possible errors (technical and methodological). Do not place a mic too close to the emmitting drivers (typically 15-25cm distance is OK in a car). In order to get reflection information, all surfaces should be "painted" at the distance about 5cm. You might come to other values - just shearing my practical experience with the APL.

If IR-response shows significant level of distortions - try to reduce both in- and output signals. For the tests I use nomally HU volume level of 17-19 from 0-35 available. Sub - in the min position - then you will be able to add more LF if needed.

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Last edited by Alextaastrup; 05-24-2016 at 06:42 AM..
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Old 05-24-2016   #260
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
Such thing is happening when signal source level is very close to Full Scale and there is no headroom for normal signal processing. Especially if digital input of APL1 is used. The input level should be decreased or FIR filter gain.
Hi Raimonds!
I got this issue yesterday too, high distortion on the midranges.
I thought it was just too much boost since they're not so far of their FS (250Hz for FS of 170Hz).
But I use digital so maybe it was just the input level?
Where should I adjust it, before the APL (but how?) or just after into the DSP?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
The overall finale result of use of correction or target curve is same.
The difference is only in the way as curves are displayed.
In "C" case, the target curve is applied on measured (green) curve.
In "T" case the target curve is applied on FIR filter curve (yellow) and you can see a difference between green and yellow curves that is exactly by target curve`s value.
I don't understand this... :/
"C" is applied to the measured curve (green), and "T" to the FIR filter created?
So C is IIR only, when T is FIR?

Horny Froggy...
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Old 05-24-2016   #261
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

APL uses only FIR filters. Some minimum phase problems could be solved automatically by implementing these filters. Funny to check this with the TDA software: (with and without APL) - just to see the difference.

If one has no possibility to attenuate the volume from the player/HU while connecting digitally to the APL, there is function in the Workshop called EQ zero level. Normally it is set to 0 dB as a default value. In the case of rather strong signal it is recommended to use at least -10dB for this setting. During the calculation procedure, the target curve will be put down accordingly and speakers will not be distored due to a missing headroom. Again - no new tests are needed - just re-calculation with the corrected EQ zero level value.

Regarding XO point for a midrange with the Fs=170 Hz is preferable to try to raise the filter level to 1,5-2 octaves, meaning at least 340Hz. This might help. Have you tested Thiele-Small parameters by yourself? Just to be sure that 170Hz is a correct value for your specific driver.

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Old 05-24-2016   #262
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
APL uses only FIR filters. Some minimum phase problems could be solved automatically by implementing these filters. Funny to check this with the TDA software: (with and without APL) - just to see the difference.
I do this usually, much cleaner after APL, but not magic if the base is all over the places.
About C & T, if C is applied to the measurement, and T to the filter, I can see that they are interchangeable.
Is it this?



Quote:
If one has no possibility to attenuate the volume from the player/HU while connecting digitally to the APL, there is function in the Workshop called EQ zero level. Normally it is set to 0 dB as a default value. In the case of rather strong signal it is recommended to use at least -10dB for this setting. During the calculation procedure, the target curve will be put down accordingly and speakers will not be distored due to a missing headroom. Again - no new tests are needed - just re-calculation with the corrected EQ zero level value.
I see! I did this before with ms8.
I'll load my "best" C-dsp setting and will try that.



Quote:
Regarding XO point for a midrange with the Fs=170 Hz is preferable to try to raise the filter level to 1,5-2 octaves, meaning at least 340Hz. This might help. Have you tested Thiele-Small parameters by yourself? Just to be sure that 170Hz is a correct value for your specific driver.
So first I'll check if it's the signal.
But yes higher would be safer, it's just that I tried lowest possible for the stage.
Also there was no big difference between 300/350/400, they all happen just after a dip.
The XO has very little effect there, but below the dip at 280, it is noticeably different.
THD seemed ok though, even 200Hz/12db it read ok.
But I'm not sure this is reliable, usually the noise from around during the sweeps shows up there.

Horny Froggy...
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Old 05-24-2016   #263
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post

If one has no possibility to attenuate the volume from the player/HU while connecting digitally to the APL, there is function in the Workshop called EQ zero level. Normally it is set to 0 dB as a default value. In the case of rather strong signal it is recommended to use at least -10dB for this setting. During the calculation procedure, the target curve will be put down accordingly and speakers will not be distored due to a missing headroom. Again - no new tests are needed - just re-calculation with the corrected EQ zero level value.

That sounds like the solution to my distortion issue. I am running the output from my mObridge DA1 into the APL1 at full volume to maximize the signal/noise.

So the APL is attempting to boost EQ but the signal is already at 100% FS.


I will try using the EQ Zero Level setting and see if this helps. Thanks!

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Old 05-24-2016   #264
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Regarding signal/noise - 25-30dB should be OK for APL. Do not maximise everything during the measurements.

EQ zero level - I used it to make "digital volume control" for CD-changer connected by toslink to the APL. 6 presets with the same target curve but different level values (-10 ... -18 dB) and I am on the go. Out of 16 positions on the APL switch only 6 are used for this purpose. Rest - different target curves, etc.

These 6 steps in the volume control should actually be supplied with the correction based on the advanced loudness (izofons). Somehow, do not know how to make it in a best way yet. Deepness of such correction might be variable, so it is a clear optimization task, may be not worth spending time on

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Old 05-24-2016   #265
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

In my car, I have a Mobridge DA1 preamp which has optical output. The OEM volume control still functions. Max volume = 34. But the max undistorted volume = 33.

I have set my gains with the OEM volume at 33, and the Helix Director at 0 dB unity.

Should I keep the OEM volume at 33, and use the EQ Zero Level to reduce the level of the target curve to prevent EQ boost in the APL1?


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I would actually do the opposite: reduce the OEM volume and keep EQ zero level at 0.

In my case (Alpine-137BTi) clipping starts already at 29 (full range 0-35). Little bit unlukky with this. Tests I used to carry out at the level 17-19. This gives enough S/N ratio. Then listening music at 20-25 will not distore the system, but loud enough for me while driving. In your case might be different. But again - APL does not demand maximasing everything.

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Old 05-25-2016   #267
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
I would actually do the opposite: reduce the OEM volume and keep EQ zero level at 0.

In my case (Alpine-137BTi) clipping starts already at 29 (full range 0-35). Little bit unlukky with this. Tests I used to carry out at the level 17-19. This gives enough S/N ratio. Then listening music at 20-25 will not distore the system, but loud enough for me while driving. In your case might be different. But again - APL does not demand maximasing everything.
My setup is fully digital since the MMI uses MOST fiber optics to communicate with the Bose factory amplifier. I have bypassed the Bose amp by using a mObridge DA1 preamp. The output from the mObirdge is Optical Digital, but the volume level is still adjustable from the MMI volume knob.

I have already set my amplifier gains with the MMI volume at 33/34 which is the max undistorted volume as measured via oscilloscope, and the DSP volume at 0 dB unity. This way I can play my system at full volume without the risk of clipping.


So you're suggesting I reduce the factory volume level now and allow the APL1 to boost EQ? Wouldn't it be better for the overall S/N ratio to leave the source volume at max undistorted level and then set the APL1 so that it will not boost the EQ into clipping?

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Old 05-25-2016   #268
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Different choices are available. It is up to you. Ad soon as you know the problem ... After EQ by APL you might expect severe change in the output. So you need a headroom for this. Awaiting your results...

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Old 05-25-2016   #269
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Will try and report back.

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Old 05-27-2016   #270
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Btw, the lower Eq target fixed the distortion issue.
So now I have to retry my "old best" XO combo, and probably optimize a bit more the target level.

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Old 05-27-2016   #271
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Btw, the lower Eq target fixed the distortion issue.
So now I have to retry my "old best" XO combo, and probably optimize a bit more the target level.


So using a target curve with lower level prevents APL from making EQ boosts?


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Old 05-27-2016   #272
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Default Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I think you set it with "EQ Zero level". If you press "view as eq" and check the yellow curve it should move down as you lower this value. Just re-calculate the measurement.


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Old 05-27-2016   #273
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
So using a target curve with lower level prevents APL from making EQ boosts?


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It will prevent from too much boosts, but it still boost, relatively less than before and it will cut more.
In my case maybe a bit too much, a lot of cut on dsp, a lot on APL, I'm getting close to miss some juice!

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Old 05-27-2016   #274
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Juice - it is just to select correct target curve and appropriate volume level for listening after applying of FIR-filters. Using PEQ C1 one will be able to create his own desirable target curve. The reason I like APL - it is due to unlimited number of choices, freedom for selections and quick way to apload and listen corrected results.

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Old 05-27-2016   #275
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Yes a lot of flexibility! So I can easily get lost, so many interrelated variables

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