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Old 01-01-2017   #401
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I got it!

I was able to run some sweeps and then poke around in Workshop and figure out the workflow. I had to look in the Quick Start guide a few times, but I think I've figured it out.

I ended up using Coneq PE1 to make a file that helped me some. I made two filters, one is an 80Hz High Pass Filter, I don't have subs right now and still have the factory speakers. The other filter is a High Shelf at 5hz that I initially set to -5db to keep the APL1 from clipping the inputs of the 800PRS. I eventually wound up setting it at -15db. I'll probably break out my O'Scope and do some testing with tones to find the right amount of cut. Being able to combine the two filters into one file is mighty handy.

Back in Workshop I built a project default that includes the Mic calibration file, the file from Coneq and the mp1 curve as my targets. I did 250 sweeps with each side playing, moving the mic around. It looks like if you setup the project default then Workshop automatically applies them when you are done recording, nifty.

I had music playing when I loaded the settings into the APL1 and it was fantastic when everything just snapped into focus. The highs were much quieter than I expected. I ran another round of sweeps, applied the changes and BAM! That put a HUGE smile on my face.

Now the Car doesn't sound at all like it has factory speakers on very little power. It sounds like I've put a LOT more work into the stereo.

I am curious about something that I didn't think to test while I was in the car. When I make a change to the file in Coneq, then save it over the one I'm updating, does Workshop automatically see those changes when I click "Calculate" in the lower right corner of the main window? Or do I have to manually reload the file?

I'll take some screenshots and see if I can'y put a click-cy-click walk through together to see if I'm missing anything and to help others out.

Based on my experience today, it was totally worth the effort to figure this out!

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Old 01-01-2017   #402
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Glad to hear about your achievements. It is really not a simple task to work with apl/workshop, but the results worth doing this. It is, by the way, suggested to make at least 3 consequent measurements with sweeps on every side with averaging afterwords. I did it so, but my experience shows a very good repeatibility of the test results. If you have at least 15 dB between a signal and noise level, then the curves measured are always almost identical. So there is no need to repeat process of sweeping with a microfon if your first test consistedof 250 points. Typically I stop at 130-150 measuring points.

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Old 01-01-2017   #403
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
Glad to hear about your achievements. It is really not a simple task to work with apl/workshop, but the results worth doing this. It is, by the way, suggested to make at least 3 consequent measurements with sweeps on every side with averaging afterwords. I did it so, but my experience shows a very good repeatibility of the test results. If you have at least 15 dB between a signal and noise level, then the curves measured are always almost identical. So there is no need to repeat process of sweeping with a microfon if your first test consistedof 250 points. Typically I stop at 130-150 measuring points.

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I still have a bunch to learn, I'll spend more time with it this week. I ran the sweep again to see what had changed. Now I realize that after running the sweeps and letting Workshop do it's thing, it wasn't adding to the changes made after the first sweeps, but was totally replacing that tune.

I'm curious is there is a way to run sweeps, make some changes, run sweeps and Build on the first set of changes instead of totally replacing them?

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Old 01-01-2017   #404
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
It is an important thing. Let`s discuss it. Please give us more information about your setup!

Happy New Year to all sound enthusiasts!


My system includes the following:


mObridge DA1 preamp (optical out)
APL1 (optical in, optical out)
Helix DSP Pro (optical in, RCA analog out) Director control for master volume.
Sinfoni amplifiers


The mObridge has a variable volume control that works from the OEM volume knob on the Audi MMI. The volume range is from 0 to 34. The maximum undistorted volume level is 33.

I set my amplifier gains using -5dB and -10dB overlap tones and an oscilloscope. I did this with the mObridge volume at 33/34.

I use the Director on the Helix Pro to control my master volume.


When I added the APL1 and did the measurements and loaded the FIR file, my music was distorted due to the APL1 boosting signal. That means I need to reduce level on the input signal, but I don't know how far down I should turn it. Also, when I turn down the head unit volume I am worried I will have to adjust the gains on my amplifiers since they will probably be too low.

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Old 01-01-2017   #405
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Things I Learned Today

I think one of the more important things is that the whole process can generate a LOT of files, you need to plan for this. If you are the kida person that just kinda tosses files on the desktop all willynilly, then you are probably gonna make a mess. I installed all of my APL programs into a 16GB flash drive, so I decided to keep all the new files there, sorted by car. This is also helpful so I can pull up the data on my main laptop instead of just my older laptop with the crappy trackpad.

Since this APL1 was originally purchased for my Bronco and I put it in the Miata instead, I'll end up buying another one. If I didn't keep things in order from the sart, it could easily become a big mess!

But wait, there's more!


Coneq PE1
For starters, if you need to Build in a crossover or do some PEQ work, Ceneq PE1 is mighty handy.



You can make all those changes and then save them to a single file that only takes up one target line in Workshop. In my case you can see the 80Hz HPF for the whole Car on setting 1. Then you can see my workaround for output attenuation on setting 2. This gets saved as a single file to my car's data folder on the flash drive. It's just a text file that looks like this:



APL Workshop

Ok, this is the program that gave me to most trouble, It's really quite complex:





I think the first thing you should do is setup where all your files are going. So go into settings and you'll find this:



• The "Default projects folder" is where it'll save all the files.
• The "Filter file exchange folder" is where it'll save the files you upload into the APL1

You might also check to make sure that is says "4096" for "Filter length in samples" Mine didn't and I'l pretty sure the APL1 has 4096 taps.

I left all the other settings alone because I don't know what they do.

Now that you have that setup, close the window and create a new project. You'll get a window that looks like this, but the measurements window will be empty:



You can't really do much here until after you take a new measurement. but what you can do is get a few things ready that'll make things easier after you take your measurements.

In the upper right hand corner click "Edit project defaults" button and you get this screen:



I left everything under "Calculation parameters" alone. Go over to "Compensations, corrections, targets" you have seven lines where you can add things like your Mic/soundcard calibration files, target curves and so on.

Put your Mic calibration file in there to start with. You can't enter anything until you check the box to activate that line. Click the box with the ellipsis to get the window to find your file. It might need to modify your file, when it does it'll create a new file for you.

You can do the same with target curves, like the one I made in Coneq. I also added the mp1 target curve, it very closely resembles the Harmon curve Andy has posted several times but with a dip to help with that potentially annoying area around 3k. When you click the ellipsis box it should open up to the folder with the APL target curves.

You can click the "v" to see the curve on a graph if you'd like. Don't forget to tell it if the file you just picked is a compensation(mic cal) or target. I accidentally forget that and got errors later on.

And last, you can name each line to help keep everything in order. After that, go to the top and enter a name in the "Preset" box. Then click "Save as preset"

You are done here, close the window. Now it's time for the real fun, lets make a new measurement! On the left where you have the big empty "Measurements" window, click on "New" at the bottom of that window, you'll get this window:



Well, it won't be exactly like that, I took that screenshot while playing the sweeps. The blue level bar won't be doing anything, the "Play test signal" button won't be greyed out, but the other related buttons will be greyed out.

If you setup some default filters for your project, then those will already be entered here. If you don't want to use them you can just uncheck them. You can also add more if you want. But don't fear, you can add them after running your sweeps later if you need.

Start by giving your sweep a name, at the top of the screen. Plug your computer into your Car and and make sure the sound output drop down box is set to the correct output. Also, just to the right, make sure you are testing the correct channel, left or right. Next plug in your mic and make sure it is selected in the next drop down box.

Let's make some noise!

Click "Play test signal" you should hear the sweeps on your stereo now. If not, it's time to troubleshoot. If you are hearing the sweeps, keep an eye on the blue bar while adjusting the volume.

It isn't collecting data yet, so once you are ready, click "Record". The box just to the left of record will stat counting how many sweeps you've recorded. This is the part where you look like an idiot to anyone who doesn't know whats going on. Move your mic around to cover the listening area. Once you feel you've covered enough area, click "Stop".

There will be a blue progress bar at the bottom of the screen, once it is done crunching the data you will get a graph with your results. If you had setup a preset before doing this, then that will be be figured out as well. When you close the graph you'll return to this screen:



If you used a preset then those setting will be listed. You can deactivate something if you want, or add more. If you make any changes here, the click "Calculate" in the lower right corner and you'll get the blue progress bar again and get another graph. You will also get a new item listed under that measurement name on the left. You can right click and add comments to rename them.

I haven't been able to click on the "Parametric EQ" or "Phase correction" yet. Anyone have info about that?

If you want to upload your corrections to your APL1 then just right click on that item in the "Measurements" box, you can send it to Channel 1 or 2. This doesn't actually load it on to the APL1, it just saves a file in the "Exchange" folder you setup in picture number 4 of this post.

APL Config

Now go open your APL Config program, you'll be greeted with this window:


Plug your USB cable into the APL1 and click connect. If your drivers installed correctly, then it should connect right away and tell you in the white box on the lower left of the screen. If you want, you can download the original config files and save them away. When you are ready to upload your tune, click the ellipsis next to that channel and find the file, it'll be in your "Exchange" folder. Do the same for the other channel, then click "Write To Device"

If you are playing music while this is happening, then in a couple second you'll hear it change. If it's your first tune then things might change drastically!

Final Thoughts

First, if anyone has read this whole thread, then it's no secret that I'm not an experienced user of this device and software. However, it's also no secret that a handful of us have been waiting for a detailed post like this. If any of the more experienced APL users, or Raimonds himself, has suggestions, corrections or recommendations, then please quote JUST the section that needs to be changed. I don't think quoting this whole long ass post will be too helpful.

So, it took a long time of screwing around to finally get my APL1 installed, and during that long wait I fired up the software many times and tried to see if I could figure it out. The software isn't nearly as intuitive as FIR Designer, but after hearing the dramatic change it made to my system, it was worth the trouble.

The signal chain in my Miata is this: iPhone --> APL1 --> DEH-P800PRS --> Stock speakers, no amps. There are more details in a previous post in this thread, or in my Build thread.

For fun, here are a couple graphs from today:

Impulse responce before tuning:


After the first round:


Frequency response before tuning:


Frequency response after first tune:


These graphs don't tell the whole story though. The clarity, impact and focus of this really mundane system was GREATLY improved. It's a night and day difference. The other thing that surprised me, was once I figured out the presets, the time it took from taking a measurement to listening to it was incredibly short. This is SO much faster than running REW then copying any pasting BiQuads over, or manually entering settings.

I'm thinking I should temporarily install my preset switch so I can A-B it for people. There are two ports that the switch can plug in to, what is the correct port?

I plan to start over with the tune and include measurements from APL TDA(I bought ALL then APL software when I bought the hardware) so I can also see the impulse response over the whole spectrum as well. I also plan to do before and after measurements with REW. If things go well at work this week then I should be able to do all that this week. If not this week, then it'll be awhile, I have a bunch of traveling coming up.

When the top comes off, the tops come off!
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Old 01-01-2017   #406
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
My system includes the following:


mObridge DA1 preamp (optical out)
APL1 (optical in, optical out)
Helix DSP Pro (optical in, RCA analog out) Director control for master volume.
Sinfoni amplifiers


The mObridge has a variable volume control that works from the OEM volume knob on the Audi MMI. The volume range is from 0 to 34. The maximum undistorted volume level is 33.

I set my amplifier gains using -5dB and -10dB overlap tones and an oscilloscope. I did this with the mObridge volume at 33/34.

I use the Director on the Helix Pro to control my master volume.


When I added the APL1 and did the measurements and loaded the FIR file, my music was distorted due to the APL1 boosting signal. That means I need to reduce level on the input signal, but I don't know how far down I should turn it. Also, when I turn down the head unit volume I am worried I will have to adjust the gains on my amplifiers since they will probably be too low.
What I first tried today, and it worked, was to open up Coneq PE1 and Build a single high shelf filter at 5hz and set it to -5db and save the file. I then opened the file in a text editor and changed the values that were above -5 to -5 and saved it. Then I used that file as a target curve. It's not slick, but it worked.

I eventually changed my method to what I listed in my previous post, but it does seem like there should be a better way. I lowered the output in 5db steps until the distortion was gone. I'll try again with 0db test tones and my scope soon.

Someone earlier in this thread posted about connecting with Ceneq C1:



It has nifty slider just for this purpose, and would be the fastest way to set your gains, but I can't get this software to see the APL1.

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Old 01-02-2017   #407
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
My system includes the following:


mObridge DA1 preamp (optical out)
APL1 (optical in, optical out)
Helix DSP Pro (optical in, RCA analog out) Director control for master volume.
Sinfoni amplifiers


The mObridge has a variable volume control that works from the OEM volume knob on the Audi MMI. The volume range is from 0 to 34. The maximum undistorted volume level is 33.

I set my amplifier gains using -5dB and -10dB overlap tones and an oscilloscope. I did this with the mObridge volume at 33/34.

I use the Director on the Helix Pro to control my master volume.


When I added the APL1 and did the measurements and loaded the FIR file, my music was distorted due to the APL1 boosting signal. That means I need to reduce level on the input signal, but I don't know how far down I should turn it. Also, when I turn down the head unit volume I am worried I will have to adjust the gains on my amplifiers since they will probably be too low.
There is only one place to thing about gains - amplifier`s gains.
They should be set to max at first step.
If the use of max gains do not disturb you with a noise - it is nice.
If you hear little bit too much noise, please reduce amplifier`s gain
such way, that you still hear a noise but it does not disturb you.

Than play some music starting with low volume on mObridge.
Than increase volume to find where amplifiers hit a clip.
Amplifiers must hit a clip when volume control is on some medium position.
If it is to low (system has too much gain) than reduce amplifier`s gain
by amount that is equal to amount by which you like to increase position of volume control.

If you have a multi way system you should forget to use the volume control in max position.
The max usable position of volume control (distortion free) depends on a weakest band in your system
and how the particular music track has been made.

By setting amplifier`s gains to max usable, you are adding a headroom for your signal path.
You can not use any system with DSP without sufficient signal processing headroom.
As much higher it is(as high gains on amplifiers) as better for you.

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Old 01-02-2017   #408
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Thanks to LumbermanSVO for nice results and understanding!

Here is some points why you should spent your time to learn how to work with APL tools

Quote:
Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
.....
I had music playing when I loaded the settings into the APL1 and it was fantastic when everything just snapped into focus. The highs were much quieter than I expected. I ran another round of sweeps, applied the changes and BAM! That put a HUGE smile on my face.

Now the Car doesn't sound at all like it has factory speakers on very little power. It sounds like I've put a LOT more work into the stereo.
.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
[B]
.....
So, it took a long time of screwing around to finally get my APL1 installed, and during that long wait I fired up the software many times and tried to see if I could figure it out. The software isn't nearly as intuitive as FIR Designer, but after hearing the dramatic change it made to my system, it was worth the trouble.

.....
These graphs don't tell the whole story though. The clarity, impact and focus of this really mundane system was GREATLY improved. It's a night and day difference. The other thing that surprised me, was once I figured out the presets, the time it took from taking a measurement to listening to it was incredibly short. This is SO much faster than running REW then copying any pasting BiQuads over, or manually entering settings.
.....
I'm thinking I should temporarily install my preset switch so I can A-B it for people. There are two ports that the switch can plug in to, what is the correct port?
.....
The correct port is next to USB connector.

APL tools were created as tools for professionals.
The use of them is requesting professional attitude.
It is impossible to have just one "RUN" button.

The goal of development of APL tools was to make possible nice tuning results
and that is not possible by use of just one button.

Yes, it is possible to hear result incredible fast. 1) make your measurement (make a "sweep") 2) take a look on curves to be sure that

everything is ok 3) right click on respective measurement(recalculation) for left channel and chose "send to 1st channel" and

same way for right channel 4) press ctrl+F5 to send filters to APL1 unit (the APL Configuration software must be running, have

connection with APL1 unit and have been correctly reconfigured)

Sorry, it is tricky to use C1 tool in filter file path to APL1 unit.
The way to use it is described in Quick Start Guide.
In short words: 3 softwares must be reconfigured to use the same exchange folder ( must be a root of some disk to use for C1)
WORKSHOP - by use of "Filter file exchange folder"
APL Configuration - by use of "Settings/Fast Reload/Source directory"
C1 - by copy of the "!apeq_id.txt" file into respective folder, a root of some disk, c:/ for example

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Old 01-02-2017   #409
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

In my system, there are 2 points where I can control volume. The head unit volume controls the digital level from the mObridge DA1. Then I have the Director which controls the analog out from the DSP.

I want to use only the Director for master volume.

Where should I set the mObridge volume?


I am currently starting a new system in a different car. The new system has a Sony RSX-GS9 head unit as the source.

The Sony has an optical output but no volume control. The optical output only plays at 0 dB Fs. If I add APL1 to this car, what should I do? You have said 0 dB Fs is not good, but some head units only output to 0 dB Fs with no option to control the level.


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

If APPLY button in rje Coneq PE1 is grey (not active) - it is an indication that paths are not set corectly and the programs arw not able to see each other.

Pay attention also to the horisontal sliders in the Coneq C1. They could be used for time delay alignment - very precisely. If you combine this with the TA settings in ordinary DSP, so you are on the right way.

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Old 01-02-2017   #411
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
The correct port is next to USB connector.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
Sorry, it is tricky to use C1 tool in filter file path to APL1 unit.
The way to use it is described in Quick Start Guide.
In short words: 3 softwares must be reconfigured to use the same exchange folder ( must be a root of some disk to use for C1)
WORKSHOP - by use of "Filter file exchange folder"
APL Configuration - by use of "Settings/Fast Reload/Source directory"
C1 - by copy of the "!apeq_id.txt" file into respective folder, a root of some disk, c:/ for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
If APPLY button in rje Coneq PE1 is grey (not active) - it is an indication that paths are not set corectly and the programs arw not able to see each other.

Pay attention also to the horisontal sliders in the Coneq C1. They could be used for time delay alignment - very precisely. If you combine this with the TA settings in ordinary DSP, so you are on the right way.

I'll take another shot at setting up C1 this afternoon, thanks!

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

A couple days ago I had done a little bit of tuning with REW and just the 16 band of EQ on the 800PRS. This is what left side looked like in APL when I measured it yesterday:



There was nothing I could do with those big problems and just the 800PRS.

Yesterday I was able to get it sounding great, but it took a few rounds with APL. Today I started over, but with everything on the 800PRS set to flat for the first measurement, including the crossover. This is the baseline, no tune:



After that sweep I just exported the corrected file from Workshop, used Coneq C1 to attenuate it, then uploaded it to the APL1. I also set the HPF on the 800PRS to 80Hz @12db. This is the result:



And the right side looks even better:



This thing is brilliant! Even with the DEQ.8 that I had in the Bronco and REW, I couldn't have made such a smooth curve. It took a little over a minute to run the sweeps for each side, then less than a minute for Workshop to process. Another minute or so to export it, attenuate the file and then upload it to the APL1. Between both sides and swapping USB cables, this is literally an under 10 minute tune!

I could now easily open up Coneq PE1 and clean up the area between 400 and 2k on the left side, but at the moment I'm just going to enjoy it, it sounds great! Now I can't wait to get my new speakers and install the amp!

I need to install the software so I can run TDA on the Windows 8 computer, while I'm at it I'll install REW, then do some sweeps with each. While I'm not a fan of the Windows 8 computer, the APL software seems to run better on an actual hardware install of Windows than a virtual install. Plus, that computer is MUCH smaller and fits in this tiny Car much better!

While I was at it today, I also setup up my O-scope. I couldn't get the analog outputs of the APL1 to clip with no tune and 0db tones. However, I could easily get it to clip the inputs of the 800PRS. With Coneq C1 and a flat tune I was able to get the clipping to stop at -6db. After tuning I still had some audible clipping even at -6, but you can easily make multiple passes through Coneq C1 and I wound up back at -15db. However, unlike yesterday where I had to Build the attenuation into the target tune with a goofy high shelf filter workaround, it was super simple to do after dropping the files into the exchange folder.

I couldn't find the !apeq_id.txt file anywhere on my flash drive, so I just reinstalled Coneq C1 and was able to find it right away. Once I dropped that file into the root directory of the flash drive, then set it as the exchange folder in the other software, then they all started working together.

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Old 01-02-2017   #413
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Lumberman - First, thanks so much for the info and instructions.

Second, what are you using Coneq P1 for? You mention using it for crossovers but those are being handled by your DSP. Is it just to give the APL1 a little extra help in identifying where the crossover points are? I sort of understand using the Coneq P1 to attenuate the signal but then you mention running it through multiple times to get enough attenuation. It just seems that the Coneq steps add unnecessary complexity and I was wondering if there was a way to bypass it completely, especially since I think this is the first time I've really read that it was NEEDED over and above the APL Workshop.

Thanks again. Great info!
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Old 01-02-2017   #414
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Lumberman - First, thanks so much for the info and instructions.
You're welcome. I work with pro-grade gear for a living and very few pieces of equipment actually come with a useful user's manual, you've be surprised how many manuals I've made over the last couple years. Whenever I figure out how to use a new software/hardware combo I make up a step-by-step manual and upload it to my company's server so our other techs can reference it. It REALLY cuts down on the late night panic calls. So it wasn't too hard to bang that out. I'll work on an actual document and update it as my workflow changes and post it here when I've settled on a solid workflow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Second, what are you using Coneq P1 for? You mention using it for crossovers but those are being handled by your DSP. Is it just to give the APL1 a little extra help in identifying where the crossover points are? I sort of understand using the Coneq P1 to attenuate the signal but then you mention running it through multiple times to get enough attenuation. It just seems that the Coneq steps add unnecessary complexity and I was wondering if there was a way to bypass it completely, especially since I think this is the first time I've really read that it was NEEDED over and above the APL Workshop.
Right off the bat I had the same problem that I think subterFUSE is having. With my phone plugged into the analog inputs the setup worked wonderfully. However, with my phone going digital into the APL1, I got horrible clipping on most songs. It was clipping the inputs on my 800PRS. subterFUSE is getting this same clipping, but I believe he is going digital out of the the APL1 and into his "regular" processor. If you don;t have this problem, then yes, you could go on with life as if C1 didn't exist.

After exporting to the file exchange folder I could open the file with Coneq C1, this little tool allows you to do a few things:



First of all, it appears that to Workshop, C1 and PE1 the file exchange folder is a "live" folder, and any changes made from any of these programs will erase the previous file and replace it with your updated one. In C1 you can backup the file you get from Workshop. Handy!

When you open C1 it'll load whatever two files you have in the exchange folder. If you adjust the level to -6db, it'll replace your current files with new ones that are attenuated by 6db, and the new file name will reflect that. In my case, I uploaded that file to the APL1 and still got clipping. So I just reloaded the -6db in C1 and the level sliders returned to the top. I set them back to -6db, and it created new files, and it was smart enough to name them xxxx_-12db. I uploaded them to the APL1 and there was still just a hint of clipping, so I went for one more trip through C1, but this time with only -3db. I uploaded the new files and all my clipping was gone.

I think subterFUSE might need to do something similar. Just treat the APL1 like a regular analog device when setting up the gain structure of his setup, even though it's digital. If I recall correctly, he has no issue when he sets the bypass switch to "Bypass"

I don't know why the digital input is so much hotter than analog(Rainmonds?), but the solution is really simple and even with my super slow, so-low-power-it-doesn't-even-have-a-fan, laptop it just took seconds for each trip through C1

I addition to being able to adjust level and delay, you can click "Param EQ" and it'll take you to Coneq PE1. Here you have 12 bands of fully parametric EQ. If you make changes, you can then click "Apply" and it'll send those changes to C1 and C1 will generate a new file that you can upload.



I you like the tune you can easily use C1(or your file browser) to backup the fir file you sent to the APL1. And as long as you didn't close PE1, you can go back to it and click "save" and then drop that file into Workshop as a target curve. I haven't checked to see how well that works yet.

Well, I kinda didn't do that yet, and kinda did yesterday. Before getting Workshop, C1, PE1 and Config to all work together, I used PE1 to make a high pass filter and a high shelf to attenuate the entire frequency response and saved a file. I went for a long-ish drive today and found that the high pass wasn't quite up to snuff, (I don't have subs yet) so I wound up turning on the crossover on the 800PRS again.

Today when starting over on the tune I removed the crossover and high shelf from Workshop and bypassed the crossover on the 800PRS. After taking the initial measurements I turned the crossover on the 800PRs back on.

As far as unnecessary steps go, with REW and my PPI DEQ.8 I'd spend 10 minutes just copy and pasting BiQuads. That's not counting the time it took to do sweeps. then hop into the EQ pane and get all that working well. Today I started from scratch and got that tune in 10 minutes. Yeah, I had to run the file through C1 three times, but it was still less time than I'd normally spend in REW.

Also, I think my neighbors think I'm crazy after watching me wave a microphone around in my car.

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Old 01-02-2017   #415
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Thanks. I looked back at the image up top with your "crossover" settings and realize you set a high-pass crossover since you aren't running subs and also one to attenuate the signal. And then you updated your workflow to use C1 to attenuate. Very clear. Thank you.

I notice you bought all of the APL software packages but so far have only worked with APL Workshop. Have you used any of the others to understand just how much value/capability one of the other APL packages provides?

And yes, I've worked with multiple versions of MiniDSPs and yes, working with the biquads and automated EQ settings from REW provides its own form of pain.
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Old 01-02-2017   #416
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Thanks. I looked back at the image up top with your "crossover" settings and realize you set a high-pass crossover since you aren't running subs and also one to attenuate the signal. And then you updated your workflow to use C1 to attenuate. Very clear. Thank you.

I notice you bought all of the APL software packages but so far have only worked with APL Workshop. Have you used any of the others to understand just how much value/capability one of the other APL packages provides?

And yes, I've worked with multiple versions of MiniDSPs and yes, working with the biquads and automated EQ settings from REW provides its own form of pain.
I misspoke when stating that I had purchased all of the APL software, I did not purchase TDA EQ because 9 months ago when I bought everything TDA EQ wasn't working well in cars. I understand there has been some progress with using TDA EQ in cars though...

I did purchase TDA and have used it to test in my Bronco before yanking the dash, and all the audio gear. It was incredibly helpful when setting delays on all of my drivers. It was quite amazing how much the stage came together from using just that one tool.

The Bronco ran(and will again) horns and many people have had issues getting the timing right with them over the years, especially when using a tape measure. However, being able to see and measure the required delay right on the screen turned setting the delays into a quick job, once I figured out how to interpret the data. Totally worth it, and much more intuitive than Workshop.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Perfect Lumberman. Thanks again for helping everyone!

I bought the APL1 from a DIYMA member but haven't bought the software yet.

Also, I'm into home theater and it looks like the APL software will help me out there too, which is of course a win/win.

By the way, I have a home theater subwoofer company - Deep Sea Sound (Deep Sea Sound). I'll be working on some speakers this spring so the APL software will be really nice.
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I still don't get why there are 3 software packages - APL Workshop, APL TDA, and APL TDA EQ. I sort of understand the APL Workshop for working with the APL1. TDA vs TDA EQ - nope, nada.
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I was trying to figure out where I knew your name from! I have a pair of MkII 24's still sitting in their shipping crates. In my research on AVS(I have the same SN there) I read a bunch of your posts. I have been mulling over the idea of contacting you for a possible flatpack for my 24's(and more) if you still do custom enclosures. If you do, then shoot me a PM so we don't derail this thread :-)

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I'd be curious to hear the history of Raimonds developing the different programs and how they fit in the timeline of the hardware.

If you haven't used TDA yet, I believe you can run the trial for 30 days. Once you see the 3D impulse response of your speakers, you'll have a much better understanding of what it does that Workshop can't. Also, it's is very easy to figure out!

From my understanding, TDA EQ was developed more for the touring sound guy, and didn't deal with small spaces well. However, Raimonds has been working on that. I haven't used it myself, but I am curious about it.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I am trying to find a simple way to connect apl1 to my BMW setup.

At the moment, the head unit high level output is connected to the helix pp82dsp which is integrated dsp/amp. I understand that I can connect the high level signal to the apl1 inputs directly. But I would need some sort of converter to change the Apl1 rca output to high level. But I can't seem to find any such converter

Another way it to use a android device as a source with apl running? If I want TP control the songs from my idrive, does connecting a android device to the USB input on my idrive work? Or all controls will have to be via the android device then?
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
In my system, there are 2 points where I can control volume. The head unit volume controls the digital level from the mObridge DA1. Then I have the Director which controls the analog out from the DSP.

I want to use only the Director for master volume.

Where should I set the mObridge volume?
The mObridge volume should be set to -10 ... -15 to create a headroom for a signal processing.
Than you should set +6 ... +12dB gain after crossover filters and before DACs if such is available.
This is because of fact all frequency spectrum energy has been divided into bands and each of them receives just part of full energy. About 1/4 for 4 way system.


Quote:
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I am currently starting a new system in a different car. The new system has a Sony RSX-GS9 head unit as the source.

The Sony has an optical output but no volume control. The optical output only plays at 0 dB Fs. If I add APL1 to this car, what should I do? You have said 0 dB Fs is not good, but some head units only output to 0 dB Fs with no option to control the level.


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Yes this problem is coming from "loudness wars" and is causing "no headroom" problem.
The use of some attenuation in APL1`s fir filter gives as a workaround for this problem.
It is possible in two ways. 1) by use of C1 to quickly alternate a fir filter file.
2) by use of parameter "EQ zero level" in Workshop software. If you set it to -15 for example, you will have 15 dB attenuation in fir filter
You must be ready to fact that BYPASS switch on APL1 unit will not work nicely in case of use of attenuation. The Bypass will sound much louder because it is not attenuated.

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Old 01-03-2017   #423
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
I am trying to find a simple way to connect apl1 to my BMW setup.

At the moment, the head unit high level output is connected to the helix pp82dsp which is integrated dsp/amp. I understand that I can connect the high level signal to the apl1 inputs directly. But I would need some sort of converter to change the Apl1 rca output to high level. But I can't seem to find any such converter

Another way it to use a android device as a source with apl running? If I want TP control the songs from my idrive, does connecting a android device to the USB input on my idrive work? Or all controls will have to be via the android device then?
Looks like helix pp82dsp has 4 high level inputs, 1 AUX input (should be normal level) 1 SPDIF digital input. Last two ones can be used for connection to APL1 unit`s output.
The Android device you can connect directly to AUX input of helix pp82dsp.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
Looks like helix pp82dsp has 4 high level inputs, 1 AUX input (should be normal level) 1 SPDIF digital input. Last two ones can be used for connection to APL1 unit`s output.
The Android device you can connect directly to AUX input of helix pp82dsp.
The Aux input unfortunately runs seperately a the high level inputs. I need the rears of the high level input as that is connected to my rear parking sensors sound. So i I have music playing on the aux, I will not hear my parking sensors sound. Thats why i am checking if it is possible to convert rca back to Speaker level and to do so at a good enough quality level.

Can you explain more about the android device? i do not see it on your web site.

I assume I need to purchase the apl workshop as well to measure the Car response? Or does it come with the apl1?
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Just try to mesure with the help of TDA with and withour apl and you will be surprised ☺

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