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Old 07-05-2015   #126
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

No I want to switch between analog and digital. I see it has both analog and digital in and out, I just don't see the way to switch. I want to go from hd radio to cd to android radio for example. So analog to optical and maybe coax if I choose. Is it all auto switching?
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Old 07-07-2015   #127
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Regarding digital inputs of APL1.
Hello,
As soon as you power on your digital source the digital input of APL1 will be active.
The power down of digital source will activate analog inputs.

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Old 02-08-2016   #128
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

A little update.

Been waiting to be a lot of measurements but I have had massive technical difficulties. Preamp broke on me (again), dropped my microphone in the floor, had to get a new one and on top of that the damn laptop crashed. Couldn't recover the data on the SSD drive and I had to redo every measurement again. Unfortunately lots of stuff got lost anyway...

These measurements are done with a bad preamp so there are some interference showing up primarily at 50Hz with some distortion overtones, rest of the the measurements are accurate enough though. Compare data above 200Hz.

I've gotten myself a new car since the last one had an automatic transmission breakdown, so new system and back to tuning again. Since the APL hardware is in my "main car build", I've been using the VST plugin and the workshop to do measurements and some experimentation with.

Here's a measurement of my new system after inital setup, basically only some crossover tune. No subwoofer installed in the car yet, working on that.



This was acquired with over 200 samples using the "APL method". The large peaks around 4-5kHz are a hassle, they are indeed audible. Don't know where they "come from" but it's not the speakers themselves causing this.

Notice the resolution if we compare with a standard RTA 1/48oct smoothed with over 200 samples with "infinite averaging". Measured around the head as we normally do with this type of measurement.



As I've found out several times now, some parts of the measurements are correlating and others are not. I've tried multiple methods of acquiring the same results with traditional measuring methods but the results does never come near really, except below the modal range where a single point measurement usually is enough. The APL Workshop software does a much better job in finding problem areas with good resolution.

For this build I only have a Pioneer p99rs to tune with, which means a dual channel 31band GEQ. Even with this limitation I can attain a better center image when I use the workshop software to base my corrections from. Even when I initially tuned the center image with my 1/3oct spaced correlated noise files by ear, the measurements correlate better with what I hear in APL. Using averaged sinesweeps/RTA does correlate in lots of areas but never accurately throughout the whole spectrum as the APL software does.

I will do a few experiments later on after I get my new preamp to show some further examples.

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Old 02-09-2016   #129
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Looking good even without APL1 correction. This means - good components chosen and correct install done. Less work is left for Workshop and APL1. As it improves the overall situation with the small phase problems, the final result is expected to be quite predictable - very close to the selected target curve. The better "before" situation - the better will be a final result. This rule works also for APL as its capacity will be enough to struggle against non-perfection of the speakers, errors in mounting, reflections from the cabin surfaces, etc.

The Workshop along is a powerfull tool (maybe one of the most powerfull on the market today) for tuning, but applying of TDA will be further improvement on the way to SQ. The Workshop programme works only with one channel at a time and therefore the mutual cancelling and unnecessary dips are to be revealed and eliminated later (or at least minimized) by TA and phase alignment with the help of TDA software. In this case with a mic placed in the listening position opposite to the sweeping method of Workshop/APL.

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Old 02-09-2016   #130
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
Looking good even without APL1 correction. This means - good components chosen and correct install done. Less work is left for Workshop and APL1. As it improves the overall situation with the small phase problems, the final result is expected to be quite predictable - very close to the selected target curve. The better "before" situation - the better will be a final result. This rule works also for APL as its capacity will be enough to struggle against non-perfection of the speakers, errors in mounting, reflections from the cabin surfaces, etc.

The Workshop along is a powerfull tool (maybe one of the most powerfull on the market today) for tuning, but applying of TDA will be further improvement on the way to SQ. The Workshop programme works only with one channel at a time and therefore the mutual cancelling and unnecessary dips are to be revealed and eliminated later (or at least minimized) by TA and phase alignment with the help of TDA software. In this case with a mic placed in the listening position opposite to the sweeping method of Workshop/APL.
Yeah indeed. Would be fun to meet up some day and listen to eachothers systems. I do live quite close to the bridge

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Old 02-10-2016   #131
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I'm pretty close on ordering a apl

I have a few questions tho and hope someone can help.


1. If I'm using a apl post dsp on 2ch will it be able to handle just correcting a pass band? Midrange only?

2. How does it react to changes in signal after its corrections are done?

Another words , with my p99 I like make TA/EQ adjustments as I'm driving. Will I still be able to do that without the apl radically changing its corrections or how it relieves its input signal?

Thanks in advance ,

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Old 02-10-2016   #132
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
I'm pretty close on ordering a apl

I have a few questions tho and hope someone can help.


1. If I'm using a apl post dsp on 2ch will it be able to handle just correcting a pass band? Midrange only?

2. How does it react to changes in signal after its corrections are done?

Another words , with my p99 I like make TA/EQ adjustments as I'm driving. Will I still be able to do that without the apl radically changing its corrections or how it relieves its input signal?

Thanks in advance ,
If you connect only midrange - yes. It will do. As far as I remember you could also change the working range, but was never interested in this as it is not clever not to use apl1 capability.
It is a stupid machine. You test and it corrects. If you make some changes by HU, a new set of measurement is necessary. Suggestion: first TA and XO and only after this make test to create a correction curve. Manual adds after are unlimited, but let apl to make job.

Retest will depend on how severe are your current changes. Apl is not checking it in a real time. Remember to check target curves after some time if you install brand new speakers. For sure they will change their behavior.

I used to change only a low-end fraction while driving - sub volume from HU, as mastering quality is varying a lot. Actually it is nothing to do with mp3.

For TA it is best to use TDA, if you have another opinion, you will change it quickly after just few tests.

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Old 02-10-2016   #133
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

1. Why do you want to use it post DSP? If so then yes, it's 2ch.

2. No problems there. Got a p99 myself and fiddled with settings. It bases its settings on the input signal it was fed with during setup, then it's fixed there. I believe you can swap between 16 different setups using a switch iirc...

Hope that answers it.


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Old 02-10-2016   #134
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
If you connect only midrange - yes. It will do. As far as I remember you could also change the working range, but was never interested in this as it is not clever not to use apl1 capability.
It is a stupid machine. You test and it corrects. If you make some changes by HU, a new set of measurement is necessary. Suggestion: first TA and XO and only after this make test to create a correction curve. Manual adds after are unlimited, but let apl to make job.

Retest will depend on how severe are your current changes. Apl is not checking it in a real time. Remember to check target curves after some time if you install brand new speakers. For sure they will change their behavior.

I used to change only a low-end fraction while driving - sub volume from HU, as mastering quality is varying a lot. Actually it is nothing to do with mp3.

For TA it is best to use TDA, if you have another opinion, you will change it quickly after just few tests.

Okay . That makes sense. It sounds like a whole lot of work.

Basicly my system sounds superb ....(not bragging it does sound excellent) EXCEPT FOR....(the depressing part) there's a reflection off the glass from my 7" dash midranges. The sound around 630hz is reflected and causes a nasty phase issue where it's out of phase at 630hz between left and right.

That's really the only issue with the system. Other than that one problem it's fantastic!

It sounds like the APL one will address my reflection problem and my phase issue , other than hooking it up, doing the correction, I want to be able to use the p99 as normal and make adjustments on the fly ( yes because recordings vary so much) that I love doing with this deck.

Do you see any issues I could potentially have?

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Old 02-11-2016   #135
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Correct, that was exactly my feeling about the present setup (at that time) before I purchased the APL1 and Workshop. It opened the freedom for further improvement. If you are as good as APL with its 4096 filters and can get the same results by using ears, than the APL will just save your time. No many people can compete with DSP having more than 31 bands Correct me if I am wrong.

Along with APL1 I have a switch which I use for different target curves and volume control when a CD changer connected digitally to APL (from 0 till -18dB, five steps). Ai-net can only make this from HU if connected with RCA cables (analog).

Regarding reflections at certain frequencies - I made additional lab work to deminish their influence just by moving fronts accordingly. Most of reflections and cancelling dissipeared then. Such TA job does not influence the former corrections made by APL separately for left and right channels. What I could hear now is more details and some kind of surround sound comming from other directions than the speaker placement. Sure, improvement achieved by that is not drastic, the tonal balance is almost unchanged, but it is audible.

And actually it is proved to be true as a graphical presentation of RTA in time domain became more stable for the whole working range. I used software called TDA, version 10, for this purpose.

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Last edited by Alextaastrup; 02-11-2016 at 03:15 AM..
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Yeah indeed. Would be fun to meet up some day and listen to eachothers systems. I do live quite close to the bridge
Good idea. Contact me (PM) when you intend to cross the bridge in the near future and we will find the solution. Despite the fact that parallel to my virtual life I have also a real one with some obligations (job, family, children, ...) Quite a busy Fellow

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Old 02-17-2016   #137
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Since I got new measurement gear and moved my computer to another place in my living room I figured I could re-measure my computer speakers.

The main speakers are widebanders in vented boxes, TangBand w3-871s.

Here's the left & right side measured in APL workshop.



I made a pink noise/RTA measurement with 250 samples with both speakers on (measured around sitting position). I extracted the difference with and without the APL VST on.



If you check the first plot and compare it to the second you'll see that the acoustic response correlates well with the corrections made.

Tried out a few different curves while I was at it. The curves affect tonality only, center focus and major staging elements remain the same whatever curve you choose.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Flat" - Sounds very open/spacious, very neutral character. Nothing stands out. I like this...




"MP1" - Too bass heavy, midrange sounds recessed. Didn't like it.




"PD4" - Pretty neutral sounding, a little recessed midrange, less presence. Sounds more laid-back. Sounds ok.




"1dBperoct" - Kind of bass heavy, sounds open and spacious, similar to the flat setting. Sounds pretty neutral in otherwise... Sounds pretty good but the flat setting is better.




"ES1" - Sounds neutral. More presence in the "low vocals", more bass but not too much. The flat setting sounds more open than this but on some bad recorded tracks the ES1 sounds more balanced.




I found it interesting because the curve I liked the least with my computer system is the one that sounds the best in my car (mp1). The flat setting got too little bass in car and the lower midrange sounds washed out, the mp1 setting fixes that. Again, this is nothing new - knew beforehand that the same target responses sounds different in cars and home environments.

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Old 03-01-2016   #138
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Hanatsu:

1st off thanks for all your advice !

I've been really trying to decide on the minishark or the apl1

I've been reading a lot of posts on diy that rephase author has posted (pos)
And rephase with the mini products sounds way over my head.

The APL seems a bit more easy. However it seems over my head a bit as well.

Is this something I should even try? I'm not very smart when it comes to this level of ..... Stuff.

I really badly want to fix some phase issues tho.
Whe I look at the phase responce in REW is goes from -180 to +90 back and forth and has like perfectly streight up and down transitions between some smoother Transitions all throughout 200hz to 1k and some smoother transitions after 1k.

The transitions look like a saw tooth to try to describe it.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Right now I have my midbass on rev phase just because the transition to the midrange goes out of phase that bad. If I change slopes or crossover the way I like the sound goes away.

I want to keep the settings I have but fix the phase problems.
Is there anything easier? Or what is the easiest prouduct to do the job. Thank you,

Cheers

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Minisharc and rephase requires manual tuning. You need to measure the FR, export it to rePhase, EQ the response, export it as a impulse response and then send it to the hardware unit. The way you need to measure (sine sweep in REW), you can only do accurate single point phase measurements. Single point measurements only have good accuracy in the lower frequencies. While you certainly can attain good results with it, it does require more work - more advanced if you will.

APL measures power response and got an accuracy that you can't compare to single point measurements above the modal range. It also applies corrections automatically based on what curve you choose. APL isn't that advanced to learn, to use the basic functions you can go with the initial settings for the most part and it's pretty straightforward to work with. If you got correctable issues in the mag/ph response it will fix it for you.

If you looking at phase I'd recommend looking at group delay, it tells you about the minimal phase region that's correctable.


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

The "sawtooth" will dissappear if you choose unwrapped phase view btw.


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Old 03-01-2016   #141
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
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The "sawtooth" will dissappear if you choose unwrapped phase view btw.


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Duh! I'm a idiot. I can't believe I've been using REW for this long and never seen that. Oh my gosh I feel dumb now.

Well it looks better , not perfect tho. Still some wavy lines in midbass but mostly flat ish .

The wrapped version is a lot more in line of what I'm hearing tho.

Like my midbass plays 60-500 and all through the pass band there's areas that sound correct and areas that don't. When I reverse the polarity in both midbasses it makes 300-500 hz sound way way way better and blend with the midrange a ton better, but than there's issues below 300 when I have normal polarity the 100-300 range sounds normal but 300-500 sounds very much out of phase . And dosent blend with dash mids at all.

I look at the sawtooth graph and listening to the system it really makes sense on how it sounds.

I think the dash mid/pods are playing a negative effect on the phase at crossover .

When I reverse the phase on midbass it sounds better but imaging goes to hell.

I have tryed using time delay to ajust for the half wavelength at crossover and nil.

This is why I think the APL will help me .

I have read a bunch and people say that phase isn't audible, maybe I'm hearing group delay? Or both.

For me I want to dive into the APL and just learn it and make use of it . However I would feel very sad if it didn't fix my problem areas .

I also have that 630hz suck out as well that is a mess also.


If you think APL will help me , I will place my order tonight .

What do you think ?

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Phase is such a common subject for headache so I will probably make a thread about it. Looking at at an unwrapped phase plot is pretty impractical. A time delay (T/A) would look like a downwards sloping line as it's linear vs frequency (1ms at 50Hz = 18deg but 1ms at 500Hz = 180deg). Group delay is a derative of the phase response, basically it's the negative slope of the phase response that will be displayed as a positive peak. So any downwards sloping part of phase response indicates a delay. In the "wrapped phase" plot it only goes to 180deg before it goes full circle and hits -180deg on the other side. The wrapped phase view is easier to derive something useful from but even that is tricky.

Group delay tells you what you need to know, it tells you about non minimal phase regions. If you "generate minimum phase" in top right corner under the GD tab you will now see two new plots; "minimum group delay" and "excess group delay". Minimum group delay shows you the GD of a system perfect minimum phase chatacteristics, excess group delay shows the excess between a minimum phase system and your actual GD. This is done to highlight all areas which ain't minimum phase and therefore can't be EQed. This usually correlates to large dips in mag response.

Know that this is valid for only one point in space, move the mic and you'll move all the peaks around in the EGD plot too, the higher in frequency the worse it gets.

APL doesn't measure one point in space, it does multiple (I tend to do at least 200+) in continious sweep bursts. This allows the unit to correct mag/phase over a larger region with retained accuracy. If the issues you got not due relective destructive interference the APL unit will fix it.

One other thing about phase audibility. There are "different types of phase". First off absolute phase which is completely inaudible, this means you won't hear if both channels in a signal is shifted 360deg for example. Relative phase between L/R is very audible, in fact our mind uses phase differences in lower frequencies to localize sound direction (i.e staging mainly below ~1000Hz). The we got group delay (frequency dependant delay) which also is audible, the threshold varies vs frequency. You can read more about this in detail with a "group delay audibility" google search.

APL will improve upon any system. That is my experience after trying it in cars, home audio systems and even headphones.


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Old 03-02-2016   #143
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
If you think APL will help me , I will place my order tonight .

What do you think ?
You will not be dissapointed.

Above to APL1 you might purchase the APL VST plugin, which works perfectly with Windows on my PC. I am using foobar2000 as a media player. Plugin is almost 3 times cheaper than the hardware version of APL.

Actually applying APL concept demands some basic knowledge of what you are doing, some practical experience with calibration and measurement techniqs. But the results attained with the help of APL are worth trying.

To be honest (finally!), I have never seen a device, that is so successful in many different areas as APL: big concert halls, home cinemas, room stereo and finally - car audio with some first places at EMMA Eurofinals. You could read more about awards on the vendor's homepage. That actually has convinced me to buy APL, Workshop and TDA sofware and to leave the Army of enthusiasts having nightmare of system tuning. Three years run with APL in the two installs made me really happy with this unit.

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Old 03-02-2016   #144
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
You will not be dissapointed.

Above to APL1 you might purchase the APL VST plugin, which works perfectly with Windows on my PC. I am using foobar2000 as a media player. Plugin is almost 3 times cheaper than the hardware version of APL.

Actually applying APL concept demands some basic knowledge of what you are doing, some practical experience with calibration and measurement techniqs. But the results attained with the help of APL are worth trying.

To be honest (finally!), I have never seen a device, that is so successful in many different areas as APL: big concert halls, home cinemas, room stereo and finally - car audio with some first places at EMMA Eurofinals. You could read more about awards on the vendor's homepage. That actually has convinced me to buy APL, Workshop and TDA sofware and to leave the Army of enthusiasts having nightmare of system tuning. Three years run with APL in the two installs made me really happy with this unit.

Okay . Im going for it . Im going put my order in when I get off work today.
IM very excited to learn it

Thanks for taking the time guys . I can't wait to see the results

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Old 03-02-2016   #145
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
You will not be dissapointed.
Don't think anyone will...

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Old 03-03-2016   #146
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I still can't seem to wrap my head around the concept that a 2 channel EQ placed in front of the DSP can fix phase issues created by an IIR crossover.

I believe you guys that it works.... but man, I just keep trying to process the concept in my head and just feel baffled.



I'm tempted to buy one of these things, or maybe a miniDSP OpenDRC unit, just to try it out. The only hangups I've got are source related:


1. I'm planning a new project car right now that will have multiple sources. Most likely 2 optical sources, plus 1 analog source. Switching sources could easily be handled by a Helix DSP Pro, but if I wanted an ALP1 in front of the Helix that would only work for 1 source unless I had some source switch upstream from the APL1.

2. The sample rate on the APL1 is only 48k. Since I will have digital sources with higher sample rates than that, plus a Helix Pro which processes at 96k, that's a bit of a downer to me that the APL would be downsampling to 48k before the signal even arrives at the Helix. Not the end of the world, but it's a bummer to be buying a hi-res source unit with high sample rate and then not take full advantage.



Putting multiple APL1 units after the Helix Pro would be a possible solution to the source issue, but I'm not sure if I'm that excited about it yet to go that far.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Crossovers must be fixed beforehand. It's a non mimimum phase issue.


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

APL1 has two digital inputs: Coax and optical, but as I am concern, they will not switch automatically between each other. Between analog and digital input - yes, works perfect.


BTW, there are many cheap switches on the market:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/3-way-opti...switcher-l34ak

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Speaking of acoustic phase, single point in space, and all that.........

One of the reasons that I have began using Smaart v7 (started using it again, it's the program I started with) is because of its real time phase and magnitude measurement capability, you can measure multiple SIMULTANEOUS transfer functions as well as have a real time average of the magnitude AND phase, ALL running simultaneously.

So, for example, say you have a 5 or 6 mic array (running into a multi-channel interface), you can have on the screen the magnitude AND phase measurement of each mic position AND an averaged magnitude AND an AVERAGED PHASE!

A lot of analysis (in fact, every other one I know of) systems DO NOT average phase data, because it isn't "real" I guess. But Smaart v7 does. So you can see the average phase response across those 4 or 5 (or whatever #) mics, in real time.

It's pretty interesting.

You can get a free 30 day trial. For anyone who is well versed with REW, it's probably very much worth doing, it's extremely enlightening to be able to measure in the frequency AND time domain in real time.

This thread is a very interesting read, I thought I'd throw that out there for Hanatsu and others who might see a potential benefit to measuring multiple mics simultaneously and multiple phase measurements averaged together.

Not at all trying to "hi-jack", my apologies to anyone who might take my post as such.
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I am sure APL TDA does not averaging phase data. Data are received from one point. The major idea of this test is to investigate possibilities of TA based on the real measurement with the mic placed in the listening position. Correct - to place in correctly is art.

REW in general benefits from spatial averaging when measuring the frequency responce curve. But I can not see how averaging of phase could have further potentials for TA alignment. In any case, the final touch will be done by ears.

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