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Old 03-03-2016   #151
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post

I found it interesting because the curve I liked the least with my computer system is the one that sounds the best in my car (mp1). The flat setting got too little bass in car and the lower midrange sounds washed out, the mp1 setting fixes that. Again, this is nothing new - knew beforehand that the same target responses sounds different in cars and home environments.
Some time ago I have found the RTA curve developed by Bruel&KjŠr for home stereo speakers. They called it "ideal curve". To my opinion, it is too bright in the car (especially in the mid range) and scene missed its deepness compared to mp1 target curve. But for home application it seems to be a good one. I have SNELL EIII loudspeakers as front for my home cinema with quite similar tendency to reproduce this "B&K Ideal curve".

Snell EIII _BK_Ideal.jpg

One could try it...

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Old 03-03-2016   #152
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Niick View Post
Speaking of acoustic phase, single point in space, and all that.........

One of the reasons that I have began using Smaart v7 (started using it again, it's the program I started with) is because of its real time phase and magnitude measurement capability, you can measure multiple SIMULTANEOUS transfer functions as well as have a real time average of the magnitude AND phase, ALL running simultaneously.

So, for example, say you have a 5 or 6 mic array (running into a multi-channel interface), you can have on the screen the magnitude AND phase measurement of each mic position AND an averaged magnitude AND an AVERAGED PHASE!

A lot of analysis (in fact, every other one I know of) systems DO NOT average phase data, because it isn't "real" I guess. But Smaart v7 does. So you can see the average phase response across those 4 or 5 (or whatever #) mics, in real time.

It's pretty interesting.

You can get a free 30 day trial. For anyone who is well versed with REW, it's probably very much worth doing, it's extremely enlightening to be able to measure in the frequency AND time domain in real time.

This thread is a very interesting read, I thought I'd throw that out there for Hanatsu and others who might see a potential benefit to measuring multiple mics simultaneously and multiple phase measurements averaged together.

Not at all trying to "hi-jack", my apologies to anyone who might take my post as such.
I actually checked that program out last time you mentioned it. Haven't installed it yet but I'll be sure to check it out. I find it interesting to check out different audio software. Thanks for the tip btw.

REW can average phase measurements too, sort of. Not in realtime but if you choose multiple sweeps you can move around the mic between the automatic measurements and get an averaged reading. Don't know how this works or even if it's intended to work this way though. Smaart7 is quite expensive I must say, $895 (!) for a full installation. I only got two mics and maximum two inputs on my preamp but I can definitely see some experimental use for such a function.

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Old 03-03-2016   #153
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
I still can't seem to wrap my head around the concept that a 2 channel EQ placed in front of the DSP can fix phase issues created by an IIR crossover.

I believe you guys that it works.... but man, I just keep trying to process the concept in my head and just feel baffled.



I'm tempted to buy one of these things, or maybe a miniDSP OpenDRC unit, just to try it out. The only hangups I've got are source related:


1. I'm planning a new project car right now that will have multiple sources. Most likely 2 optical sources, plus 1 analog source. Switching sources could easily be handled by a Helix DSP Pro, but if I wanted an ALP1 in front of the Helix that would only work for 1 source unless I had some source switch upstream from the APL1.

2. The sample rate on the APL1 is only 48k. Since I will have digital sources with higher sample rates than that, plus a Helix Pro which processes at 96k, that's a bit of a downer to me that the APL would be downsampling to 48k before the signal even arrives at the Helix. Not the end of the world, but it's a bummer to be buying a hi-res source unit with high sample rate and then not take full advantage.



Putting multiple APL1 units after the Helix Pro would be a possible solution to the source issue, but I'm not sure if I'm that excited about it yet to go that far.
Here's what APL does to the phase of a sealed subwoofer in a car. First measurement is an acoustic, the rest are electrical measurements with the output filters from first the MiniDSP and then the APL filters applied to the first measurement to see how it affects the output.












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Old 03-03-2016   #154
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
Some time ago I have found the RTA curve developed by Bruel&KjŠr for home stereo speakers. They called it "ideal curve". To my opinion, it is too bright in the car (especially in the mid range) and scene missed its deepness compared to mp1 target curve. But for home application it seems to be a good one. I have SNELL EIII loudspeakers as front for my home cinema with quite similar tendency to reproduce this "B&K Ideal curve".

Attachment 122802

One could try it...
Yeah, car curves and home audio tend to differ quite a bit.

I'm building new speakers right now, dipole widebanders with a ported subwoofer. I wonder if I can launch multiple instances of the APL VST and use it to optimize the entire cutoff range of the crossover, i.e use it in "2-way" mode.

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Old 03-03-2016   #155
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Would one of you gents please give me a minimum phase system vs non-minimum phase system For Dummies explanation? I have tried to read about it but no luck with understanding it.
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Old 03-03-2016   #156
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Would one of you gents please give me a minimum phase system vs non-minimum phase system For Dummies explanation? I have tried to read about it but no luck with understanding it.
There are minimum phase and there are linear phase systems. Using minimum phase corrections are the most common way to do it as we need phase shift to correct for the phase distortion of the environment when dealing with room acoustics. A perfect audio system in a perfect room without reflections is normally minimum phase (+delay). The phase response in a true minimum phase system will relate to the amplitude (magnitude) of the signal perfectly, if a system would be 100% MP then you could calculate the magnitude response from the phase response and vice versa.

IIR filters in the digital domain emulates analog filters and are by definition minimum phase. FIR can be minimum phase or non-minimum phase, linear phase filters can be done with fir processing. This way you can have any phase response with any amplitude response, this is non-minimum phase.

Sound that is delayed acoustically and reflected off surfaces will have a different amplitude and phase response and will interfere with the direct sound at some point, this cause non-minimum phase regions to occur that cannot be EQed out fully. Any region where the amplitude and phase response don't correlate with eachother are not minimum phase, EQing these areas will yield unpredictable results.

RoomEQ for example can calculate how the minimum phase response would look like in a perfect system and compare it with the actual phase and from there give you the "excess phase".

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Old 03-03-2016   #157
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
. But I can not see how averaging of phase could have further potentials for TA alignment. In any case, the final touch will be done by ears.
maybe you cannot see this because you have not done it? When I say spatial average, I'm talking about the mics being in a rather tight formation about the listener's head area.
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Old 03-03-2016   #158
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Oh, yeah, I remember now why I came back to this thread....I was searching thru threads on a another forum and found this delay estimation and measurement

Rather interesting, it's the inventor of APL talking about the time delay analysis software he wrote.

I wasn't sure if anyone had already posted a link to this thread or not. If so, oops.
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Old 03-04-2016   #159
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Niick View Post
maybe you cannot see this because you have not done it? When I say spatial average, I'm talking about the mics being in a rather tight formation about the listener's head area.
That was I also ment - spatial average around the head at the listening position. EQ-wotk in this case can be optimised due to averaging of reflections. In the case of TA (Group delay, phase issues) I used to apply graphical presentation for the whole frequency range, which APL TDA sofware provides me after just one sweep. It is not a real time. You could correct time alignment based on RTA, DFR and other graphs. Afterwords - there is a possibility for further improvement - when sending sweep simultaniously to both front channels. it is very easy to see how these channels interfere each other. By the way - trial version is free, as I remember.

Yes, Raimonds Skuruls came to caraudio from the prosound world. and his APL (from 2009) is a mini-version of Coneq unit used for big concert halls, etc.

For your information this concept is used today by some producers of Tv's. PanasonicTX-PR50GT30 is one of them.

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Old 03-04-2016   #160
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
That was I also ment - spatial average around the head at the listening position. EQ-wotk in this case can be optimised due to averaging of reflections. In the case of TA (Group delay, phase issues) I used to apply graphical presentation for the whole frequency range, which APL TDA sofware provides me after just one sweep. It is not a real time. You could correct time alignment based on RTA, DFR and other graphs. Afterwords - there is a possibility for further improvement - when sending sweep simultaniously to both front channels. it is very easy to see how these channels interfere each other. By the way - trial version is free, as I remember.

Yes, Raimonds Skuruls came to caraudio from the prosound world. and his APL (from 2009) is a mini-version of Coneq unit used for big concert halls, etc.

For your information this concept is used today by some producers of Tv's. PanasonicTX-PR50GT30 is one of them.
I often overlook the very different perspectives that I and the majority of DIYmobileaudio forum members have. Especially regarding tuning and car audio in general. I am always looking at it from a perspective of multiple cars, multiple scenarios, many unknowns regarding these cars and their installations, often times the design and installation of the systems I'm working on was not done by me. Or anyone I know. And time is a massive factor.

It's in the HF where I see the POTENTIAL benefit of multi-mic averaging phase responses. Smaart v7 is able to resolve phase in cars without the usual mess of noise and random lines most other measurement platforms have. Again, with unlimited time on your hands, you can achieve this with REW too. The rather new frequency dependent windowing feature of REW works a treat for resolving phase data in the HF in cars. I've tried it.

I want to download and test out the TDA software when I have a little time to experiment with it. It looks interesting. And as far as FIR filtering, that's on the agenda too. Although, the smallish amount of taps being used by APL makes me wonder about its effectiveness AS COMPARED TO OTHER FIR systems I've read about.

Of course, this is just a thought, I'm sure it works great, no doubt about that. But with other systems (although none of these other systems are at present made for car audio) using many, many times more taps than APL, and with manufacturers like Audison soon to be entering the market with FIR technology, I'll bet ya it isn't long before the APL1 is in need of a refresh, a version 2 if you will, in order to stay relevant.
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Old 03-04-2016   #161
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Nick, fully agree about necessity of upgrade of the APL unit in the near future. Me too - missing some smart features (like Bluetooth, tuneIt, multiple digital input, etc.). The major concern is actually about a limited possibility for time alignment. You simply have to use another post-DSP for this purpose (as I do). But on the other hand - final adjustment of TA (0-5 msec) could be made much-much more accurate compared to other DSP's like H800, as an example. So, the best way to use APL1 is to combine its strengths with further processing by another DSP. MiniDSP can be a good choice. Then you can go full active.

There is another version of APL (for home application) available on the market - with 96kHz internal processing, but I will doubt if majority of customers could hear a difference between 48kHz processing (with downsampling) and 96kHz (without). Especially during driving. If you tune a car for competition - it might be another story indeed.

On the other hand - APL1 should be compared with existing car designed DSP's with FIR filters. But not with professional equipment from other branches, from different price levels. It's my point, you might disagree, of course. If one will compare the APL1 with 4096 FIR filters with normally used 31 bands/channel, so APL will be definetely a winner. The difference is audible, and this is the most important here: sound quality and capability of the device to rich the goal.

My personal experience with the APL1 - 3 years continuos run without issues. Funny to mention, I've started to drive little bit slower in order to prolong the pleasure of listening

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Old 03-04-2016   #162
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Even if other manufacturers make fir based processors more widely available it doesn't really matter, I mean the MiniDSP DIRAC and the MiniSHARC is already on the market. You can use these units with rePhase to EQ your systems but you need accurate measurements to acquire the data for accurate corrections. The power of APL lies in its software and how it attain acoustic data imo. No matter how powerful hardware you got, it can't do any good unless it knows what to correct for.

Regarding sample rates etc... 48k vs 96k doesn't have any real benefits in reproducing audio. 48kHz sampling gives us the Nyquist frequency of 24kHz which is beyond human hearing. This 24bit craze is also ridiculous, it only affects the dynamic range. The DR of the normal 16bit system is far from capped with any recording available. Vinyl recordings got about 11bits equivalent DR if you find material with a good master. I'd even be so bold to say that there are zero audible difference between 48k/16 and 96k/24.

I still stand by my claim that there are no real audible difference with mp3 with a bitrate above 256kbit/s against any lossless format. Our hearing ain't sensitive enough to discern certain forms of distortion and loss of data that get masked by overlapping frequencies, there are exceptions of course - people who know exactly what to listen for with certain material as proven by that klippel ABX distortion test.

Deviations in the frequency response that cause staging issues due to phase inconsistencies between left/right channels are by far the most audible forms of distortion. APL does a wonderful job compensating for these issues.

Sure, I'd like to see some other features like BT control, wireless streaming, tablet compatibility etc and most of all a complete all-in-one solution DSP/amp. In a future APL v2 I'd like to see a complete DSP:

*10 output channels, 6 analogue inputs (2 with input sense) and 2 toslink inputs
*Crossovers 6-48dB/oct on each channel + HS/LS filters.
*Gain control with 0,1dB accuracy on each channel with the capability of locking left/right side channels together.
*Low-increment T/A with 25ms range on all channels.
*Volume dependent EQ
*Direct USB or WiFi stream from harddrive or Apple/Android unit with FLAC, mp3, wma, ALAC decoding. Control via iPod/iPhone/iPad/Android (wifi or BT)

AMP, Class D fullrange.

4x25/50Wrms @ 4/2ohms
4x100Wrms/200Wrms @ 4/2ohms
2x300Wrms/600Wrms @ 4/2ohms bridgeable for 600W @ 4ohm.

APL EQ on each speaker. Correcting the entire stopband of each driver. All-in-one software solution with the ability of manual control of allpass filters (phase EQ) on all channels. Realtime updating the graph while measuring would be cool too. Integrate TDA pl graph to show before/after corrections.

If such a unit could be made, it would destroy the competition completely. A box of awesomeness xD

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Old 03-05-2016   #163
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Right. It is nice to dream. but the reality create some limitations. And it is not a bad idea to accept those, which have logical background. I do believe that based on psychoacoustics the APL company have designed the full concept of measurements and tuning, which is enough for caraudio for the best perception of sound.

Some people are talking only of the APL1 unit camparing it with other DSP's. But actually the software provided by APL company is not less interesting. Especially for those who are trying to heal the sound in cars suffering from fault install, uncorrect tuning, etc. To my mind they could benefit from using this software and save a lot of time, increasing incomes and efficiency of their work. Am I so wrong?

Working at the accredited lab, I spend a lot of time everyday on calibration of measurement equipment, testing accuracy and repeatibility. Caraudio for me is just a hobby appart from some other forum members. But I will just express my overall satisfaction with the APL concept as a whole, including the APL plugin for carPC and home computers. It works perfect even without this hardware box called APL1.

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Old 03-08-2016   #164
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I have very limited understanding of the hows and whys of the APL1. It seems that it is best in the hands of very experienced audio guys. (which is not me) So this may be a dumb question, but.
Is there any reason not to use APL1 with a MS-8? Auto tune with the JBL MS-8 then auto tune further with the APL1.
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Old 03-09-2016   #165
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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I have very limited understanding of the hows and whys of the APL1. It seems that it is best in the hands of very experienced audio guys. (which is not me) So this may be a dumb question, but.
Is there any reason not to use APL1 with a MS-8? Auto tune with the JBL MS-8 then auto tune further with the APL1.
I will recommend to use APL for EQ and MS-8 for TA. APL1 has only two channels, so it is not possible to use it alone for active install. The APL1 has 4096 minimum phase FIR taps, so why to destroy everything afterwords with another processor? Actually it is not too much complicated to use APL with its measuring technique. Once you learned it - everything will be fast, logical and easy. The most important - repeatibility of results (acoustic power frequence response) - it is simply amazing. Then, do not forget that APL's software permits unlimited correction of the results obtained from the measurements. A switch with 16 positions will give you possibility to change quickly from one target curve to another. I use it also as a volume control when the CD changer connected digitally to the APL1.

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Old 03-09-2016   #166
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I will say that I think it's wonderful actually that such a product exists for car audio as the APL1. On a regular basis I'm completely baffled by the proliferation of simplistic 31 band graphics STILL hanging around, and even being released as new products.

This is baffling to me. But such is the nature of mainstream car audio. I've said it before, but the continued staying power of the lowly 2 conductor RCA connector as the "industry norm/standard" speaks volumes about the mentality of the mainstream car audio industry as a whole.

This is only my opinion. I'm sure that it's not difficult for someone to make an argument against any of these points.

So, in closing, I say, the more people who buy, use, promote, and cause others to buy, use and promote products like the APL1 the better. These are the type of products from out of the box thinkers that this industry so badly needs.
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Old 03-09-2016   #167
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I'd be curious too about a combo with ms8, since I already played a bit with dual dsp (to keep L7 and easy auto tune for 8+ channels).
We know the ms8 cannot do TA without EQ/phase, they're all tied together, only thing still working when its DSP is off are the crossover settings.
So if ms8 is the master (for logic7 for exemple) > only two channels so bye bye the XO
If it is the slave (to manage a front 3 way) > XO ok, TA ok, but double EQ/phase

In my experience ms8 impacts a lot the phases, more than EQ.
I tried dual ms8, and both seemed to work in the same directions.
Well, based on what I could read of my before/after REW measurements on each.
And it sounded nice and fun so maybe it can work!
(I'm not a golden or even silver ear like you guys)

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Old 03-09-2016   #168
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Doesn't matter what the ms8 does to EQ/phase. APL will measure the acoustic response and correct based on that. It doesn't "know" that the ms8 modifies the signal.

I agree with Niick. I find it unbelievable that TOSLINK is considered "high end" in car audio. A $50 dvd player connected to your tv had toslink 15 years ago. Unbalanced analog rca should be phased out.


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Old 03-09-2016   #169
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Ya, it is a question of music files formats as well.

Nobody expected us to listen to FLAC or even hi-rez music files. Mp3's from USB-stick is normal today, such a pitty. Digital out/in from HU is just a dream except some few models.

Think of Tesla - with its computerised features ... and how little has been done for SQ in this amazing car.

Sellers promote new cars with 12 or even 16 speakers as a selling parameter! More - better ...

Average representant of a young generation does not know about sound processor and why it should/could be used in a car. Majority think simply that in order to improve sound quality - one should buy a subwoofer. Such a development!

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Old 03-09-2016   #170
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Doesn't matter what the ms8 does to EQ/phase. APL will measure the acoustic response and correct based on that. It doesn't "know" that the ms8 modifies the signal.
I just expected that too much treatment could degrade the signal, or create some kind of conflict if both algorithms "fight" each other.

Horny Froggy...
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Old 03-09-2016   #171
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
Ya, it is a question of music files formats as well.

Nobody expected us to listen to FLAC or even hi-rez music files. Mp3's from USB-stick is normal today, such a pitty. Digital out/in from HU is just a dream except some few models.

Think of Tesla - with its computerised features ... and how little has been done for SQ in this amazing car.

Sellers promote new cars with 12 or even 16 speakers as a selling parameter! More - better ...

Average representant of a young generation does not know about sound processor and why it should/could be used in a car. Majority think simply that in order to improve sound quality - one should buy a subwoofer. Such a development!
Most people I do car audio installs for don't understand why any form of processing is important, or don't even understand what EQ is etc. They don't want to pay the added cost of a DSP until I let them hear the difference themselves with T/A - EQ bypassed/on. Then suddenly most people feel like they need the processing. After a few months they say; "normal cars sound like crap now when I know how it should sound".

The questions I get the most when I say I compete in car audio is:

1. How many dBs?

2. How many speakers do you got?

3. How much did all of this cost?

The general car audio interest is usually just large subwoofers and deebeez. Demo a SQ car just isn't fun when you have to explain what they should listen for instead of maxed out bass... lol

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Old 03-09-2016   #172
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
I just expected that too much treatment could degrade the signal, or create some kind of conflict if both algorithms "fight" each other.
Nah, don't overthink what happens in the electrical domain. What's interesting is how the acoustic magnitude response looks, how the acoustic phase response looks etc.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

ok

Damn', another dsp on my list!

Horny Froggy...
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Old 03-10-2016   #174
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I was waiting for the new ddrc88, but in the mean time I couldn't just ignore all your good words on this unit Hanatsu. So I pulled the trigger!

Horny Froggy...
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Old 03-10-2016   #175
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
I was waiting for the new ddrc88, but in the mean time I couldn't just ignore all your good words on this unit Hanatsu. So I pulled the trigger!
Be sure to let us know how it works for you. I am very interested to know how easy you find it to manipulate.
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