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Old 03-27-2016   #51
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydo View Post
Yup, playing with the trial version.....I have yet to improve much from my initial reading.....need to learn more about what I'm seeing I reckon.....
Dunno the resolution of your 99RS delay increments, but might be a factor if splitting hairs that much.

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Old 03-27-2016   #52
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I'm just glad my settings were proven to be really close....that was satisfying......and it's much easier to see than the impulse measurements in rew......
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Old 03-28-2016   #53
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Originally Posted by claydo View Post
I'm just glad my settings were proven to be really close....that was satisfying......and it's much easier to see than the impulse measurements in rew......
Agree 100%. TDA gives much more informative results. FR maybe not so accurate (compared to Workshop/APL), but might give all necessary information on phase problems at the XO point. Changing the filter order helps to eliminate the dips. It is easy and quick to do with TDA: switch - test - switch - test... All done just in halv an hour.

Experience shows that the higher filter order results in a bigger group delay, which is more difficult to struggle against. With some capacity limits (10ms of HU and 5ms of APL1) I simply had to choose the first order at much lower XO point for the sub (40Hz), which might be very unusual. Many people use normally 24dB/oct at 80 or even 100Hz. After measurements with the TDA it came out that it was a bad choice for my present install. It was not possible to come to this conclusion without TDA software.

Null delay at DFR-graph (for mids and tweeters) together with a smooth FR at XO points (both front channels at the same graph) - might be a goal when optimizing TA with the help of TDA. Yes, we do not hear phase problems well, that is why a reliable measuring tool is a good help in this case. Above appr. 4kHz correction might be done by the sound volume instead of delaying in time. This is even more important for the passive XO.

Take a look on my first picture in the post No.26. it is easy to observe cross-cancelling at several frequencies (both fronts are shown there). Slight adjustment of TA made this problem much less. You may try this in your car.

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Old 03-29-2016   #54
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
...It is easy and quick to do with TDA: switch - test - switch - test... All done just in halv an hour....
Very interesting!
So you process here only involve measurements and TA tweaking?

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Old 04-06-2016   #55
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

These are my results with using Tape Measure/Tracerite for T/A.
Tweeters-- 2750hz
Mids--406hz-2750hz
MB's--93hz-406hz

Everything is on L/R 24's.

The 1st pic is the entire system W/O Subs, 2nd pic is Left side w/o Subs, 3rd pic is right side w/o subs.

So, what should be my plan of attack to fix these T/A issues?

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Old 04-06-2016   #56
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

This is some interesting material...I have yet to dabble into this much detail when dealing with my system...although I am still building it as of this time.I will definitely keep an eye on this thread.
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Old 04-06-2016   #57
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I will soon need this too.
Can you adjust the ms window for the graph on the demo? (looks like the sub is out)

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Old 04-06-2016   #58
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I had the sub muted.

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Old 04-06-2016   #59
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Opps

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Old 04-07-2016   #60
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumledb View Post
I had the sub muted.

Hah yeah... Those measurements looked really messed up


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Old 04-07-2016   #61
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quick guide on how to read the graphs??

And what to adjust?

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Old 04-07-2016   #62
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

The 2/3d view is simply frequency vs delay in ms.

If it's off the the L/R timing is incorrect. Correct this with T/A.

There can of course be other problems like crossovers.


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Old 04-07-2016   #63
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

What is the best process for using TDA?
Should I mute everything but tweeters and align them, then add mids?
Or try to align entire left side and then right side and then align the two sides together?



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Old 04-07-2016   #64
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Before you continue on that path you should install HolmImpulse and setup your T/A with that. Then go back and check everything with TDA to see how it looks. Just for fun of course. =]
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Old 04-07-2016   #65
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

You place microphone clamped between the seat and headrest. Don't be in the car, run all speakers at the same time. Full system, left and right sides + sub. There you'll see the complete time coherency of the system.

You could go left and right side only + sub too if you are troubleshooting for something.

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Old 04-07-2016   #66
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I actually have holmimulse, just haven't had time to learn how to use it.


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Old 04-07-2016   #67
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
You place microphone clamped between the seat and headrest. Don't be in the car, run all speakers at the same time. Full system, left and right sides + sub. There you'll see the complete time coherency of the system.

You could go left and right side only + sub too if you are troubleshooting for something.

Start at with 0 time delay and try to "walk" it in from there? And assume that it would be the driver's side that needs delaying?
Do you try to align tweeter, then move to mid, then midbass, then sub?


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Old 04-07-2016   #68
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Originally Posted by brumledb View Post
I had the sub muted.
I would start to look at AFR graph. Improving the frequency response of the selected channel (left or right) by EQ might make the time delay more smooth. Then test once more time and open DFR graph to define values of time alignment needed for every speaker. The goal is to optimize the system in the way when sound from different speakers will arive at the same time. I am talking here about impulse start (arriving start time), not peaks , in order to avoid pre-ringing and the low end. It is important for natural sounding of your system. For TW, mids and MB try to make DFR curve close to 0ms. For subwoofer - the sound should arrive simultaniosly with other speakers, not before. Typically it is much later for SW placed in a trunk, and even worse for a complicated box like 4. or 6. order bandpass.

What are TA settings for these graphs?

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Old 04-09-2016   #69
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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... I am perplexed with TA and our beans.. What I mean is our "mic's" on our heads have two, not one, and they're several inches apart. This is the conundrum I'm dealing with concerning a measured TA tool verses ear alignment. Were it speakers very far away and more in-front, instead of Car with wider Speaker placement and short distances, I could fathom that a single mic point would be pretty darn spot on, but when drivers are so wide as they are in Car and your ears are also relatively wide apart, how's it work?
About this, I will try tomorrow 2 different points, left / right ears with me in the car, just to see the difference.

So far I just did one point in front of the nose:


No manual Ta with ms8, but I'll play with different ms8 calibration too.

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Old 04-09-2016   #70
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Wow... That's your first try?!? I have spent HOURS trying to align and haven't gotten anything nearly that good. I'll post my current best later.


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Old 04-09-2016   #71
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Wow... That's your first try?!? I have spent HOURS trying to align and haven't gotten anything nearly that good. I'll post my current best later.


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He's using ms8
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Old 04-09-2016   #72
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Wow... That's your first try?!? I have spent HOURS trying to align and haven't gotten anything nearly that good. I'll post my current best later.


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Ms8 and APL, so it's really not me
But check that, left and right:





Sub could be better on both, i have somehting strange on the right woofer, and some ringing on the right tweeter?
I'll try some more with ms8 on/off and apl on/off.

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Old 04-09-2016   #73
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Yeah I know he is using the MS8 but that is still really impressive now that I have experienced how hard it is to get those frequencies to line up. Especially the sub, I am out of delay to add on my tweets and still like 20 seconds out on the sub. I must still not be doing something properly.
Ah, so you are using the APL already? And that is adding delay to specific frequencies, correct?
I haven't started using my APL yet and trying to do it just by TDA.



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Old 04-09-2016   #74
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumledb View Post
Yeah I know he is using the MS8 but that is still really impressive now that I have experienced how hard it is to get those frequencies to line up. Especially the sub, I am out of delay to add on my tweets and still like 20 seconds out on the sub. I must still not be doing something properly.
Ah, so you are using the APL already? And that is adding delay to specific frequencies, correct?
I haven't started using my APL yet and trying to do it just by TDA.



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Yes it does fix the ir, but what part is due to ms8 and what part is due to APL, I should learn soon.
So you got your, don't wait, even in bad hands like mine it's really cool!

Horny Froggy...
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Old 04-09-2016   #75
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I have to stress this:

DO NOT SIT IN SEAT WHILE MEASURING. DON'T TOUCH THE MICROPHONE.

Clamp it in headrest, in the middle where your head is normally. If you move the mic even an inch the measurement will be messed up. If you are aiming for repeatable results while correcting time coherency the mic must be absolutely stationary.

Elgrosso, The results you seeing on right side are probably due to destructive interference. I assume there's dips in the frequency response (AFR) at the same spots. Is this a 2 or 3-way? If it's a door mid it's perfectly normal. A small dedicated midrange should do better if placed optimally. Where is the crossovers?

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