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Old 06-08-2008   #1
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Default eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

More than a year ago I ordered pieces of Elemental Designs then new butyl adhesive eDeads - V1Č, V1SEČ and UE. At the time, the V1Č's adhesive demonstrated very poor performance and soon after, people started to report failures. V1SEČ and UE had adhesives that tested well. I didn't care for any of these products because the choice to substitute a much less expensive Mylar facing for the usual aluminum foil compromised the product's effectiveness in ways I won't go into here.

A couple of weeks ago, two posters on the Realm of Excursion forum independently reported failures with eDead V1SEČ. One went so far as to claim that the stuff wouldn't even stick to itself when pressed together, adhesive to adhesive. The same guy claimed that ED refused to do anything to make things right. Since he was stuck with most of a roll of a product he couldn't use, I asked him to send me a sample and he obliged. A few days later a package arrived containing several square feet of eDead V1SEČ in pristine condition. The physical dimensions matched the samples I bought more than a year ago.

The first thing I did was press two pieces together as described. Sure enough, it was very easy to peel them apart. Seemed very odd. The next thing I did was run my standard adhesion tests. I run one test as soon as the product is mounted on the testing surface and another after a second sample has been mounted for 96 hours. Good quality butyl adhesive creates an increasingly strong bond with time, so this is information worth having. Since some butyl adhesives are activated by heat, I attached two more samples and heated them. The adhesive bond strength results were really poor, but the stuff was at least sticky to the touch so I figured something else must be going on. The heated samples did no better than those held at room temperature.

Since it was 97°F here today, I decided to mount some test strips to the sheet metal I use for heat testing and just set it outside for the day to see what happened. Here's the starting sample sheet:

I mounted samples of the year old V1SEČ, the V1SEČ I had just received and samples of Dynamat Xtreme as a control. I mounted a single strip and two strips stacked for each product. I angled the sheet metal mounting surface approximately 20° forward of vertical. The samples were mounted to meticulously clean metal and careful gone over with a roller.

I put it outside, on my deck, and positioned it so that the sun only hit the back of the sheet metal. The samples were never in direct sunlight. I left the samples there from 9:00 AM until 5:00 PM. I checked the temperature of the substrate and the samples every 1/2 hour. The highest temperature I ever recorded was 120°F.

120°F is nothing for a Car sitting in the sun. A light colored Car can easily reach 160°F and darker cars will get to 180°F. These are temperatures inside the doors, at the roof, etc. - all of the places sound deadener lives. 120°F should be a walk in the park.

At 5:00, I found this:

The new V1SEČ samples are number 4 and 5 from the left, labeled 6-1-2009. It's a little hard to see here, but there is significant separation on the lower 2/3 of each sample. The older V1SE showed very slight separation at the very bottom and the Dynamat Xtreme looked exactly as it did when first applied.

These details show the damage more clearly:




This is ridiculous. The adhesive formula has been changed. This stuff is guaranteed to fail. If these results hadn't been as conclusive as they were, I would have tried a curved substrate. Since it wouldn't even stick to a perfectly flat surface, that seems pointless. What I did was less taxing than a single day when installed in a car that's parked in the sun.

Using absolutely rudimentary tests, I could tell in 10 minutes that this adhesive was completely different than what I had tested a little over a year ago. This suggests, to me. that ED does absolutely no quality control before shipping. The guy who sent me the samples says that ED told him they couldn't help him because he wasn't a professional installer. It's hard to imagine how that would make any difference at all. Between the two guys reporting failures, 3 rolls were involved.

Sorry for the wordy and detailed descriptions. I've found that if I don't start that way, I end up having to provide it all later.
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Old 06-08-2008   #2
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

That sucks. Guess I'll make sure I dont buy there product than seeing as how it fails, AND they dont replace it with a working solution.

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Old 06-08-2008   #3
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

If they are indeed avoiding taking responsibility for the problem that does not sit good with me. Honestly anyone can sell any item, but it takes a real business minded company to back that product once it leaves its showroom/warehouse/garage.

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Old 06-08-2008   #4
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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Originally Posted by unpredictableacts View Post
If they are indeed avoiding taking responsibility for the problem that does not sit good with me. Honestly anyone can sell any item, but it takes a real business minded company to back that product once it leaves its showroom/warehouse/garage.
I can't vouch for his claim, just reporting what he told me. I started a thread in the General section asking if anyone else has had experiences with this product and ED's response to it. Nobody ever reported back about what, if anything, ED did about the failed V1Č.
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Old 06-08-2008   #5
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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I can't vouch for his claim, just reporting what he told me. I started a thread in the General section asking if anyone else has had experiences with this product and ED's response to it. Nobody ever reported back about what, if anything, ED did about the failed V1Č.
Understandable....not usre why being a dealer/installer has anything to do with a failing adhesive?

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Old 06-08-2008   #6
 
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

I'll be taking off the rear deck where I put some v1SE in a few days and I'll report back with the results. This is certainly unsettling. We'll see how it does in another unbiased install.

It certainly seems like it doesn't matter how cheap their stuff is, its not worth it to buy from a company with the kind of customer service ED has...
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Old 06-08-2008   #7
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Wonderful. I have about 40 sq ft that I received in a trade. Fortunately it does not get very warm here so it should be fine to use.
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Old 06-08-2008   #8
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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Wonderful. I have about 40 sq ft that I received in a trade. Fortunately it does not get very warm here so it should be fine to use.
It only hit 101* today... not too bad! I used this crap in my Ford last year and then pulled the door panels off 2 months later to swap out components and it was peeling at the edges and several smaller pieces had actually fallen all the way off. Sorry Dave- I shoulda told ya!

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Old 06-09-2008   #9
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Wow. Thanks for the write up and pictures. Thankfully I've done most of my Car in Second Skin. *whew*

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Old 06-09-2008   #10
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

That's just terrible! For a company that sells decent amps and subs, the rest of their product line sure is lacking! And the fact that they're coming up with BS excuses to not cover product problems is unacceptable. I hope that someone from eD will chime in on this thread as I for one would LOVE to hear what being a pro installer has anything to do with the adhesive on sound deadener failing/not working at all.
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Old 06-09-2008   #11
 
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Someone needs to post this one their forums and see how fast the thread disappears or if eD will give an explanation.

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Old 06-09-2008   #12
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Since we were "lucky" enough to have another near 100°F day, I thought I'd give the samples another day to see if the problem got worse. I thought it might be possible that the damage I recorded before might have reached some sort of equilibrium. Nope - got worse.

After another 8 hours, the separation is worse and now runs all the way along each side of each sample. No change for the old V1SEČ and Dynamat Xtreme.
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Old 06-09-2008   #13
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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Someone needs to post this one their forums and see how fast the thread disappears or if eD will give an explanation.
The thread would get deleted and your username/IP address would get banned from ICIX in less than 10-15 minutes if you were to post that up over there. eD could be a good company if they would actually sell what they advertise and if they would back up the products that they do sell. Such a shame.

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Old 06-09-2008   #14
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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I hope that someone from eD will chime in on this thread as I for one would LOVE to hear what being a pro installer has anything to do with the adhesive on sound deadener failing/not working at all.

I have no quams with anyone from ed signing up to our forum.
They are welcome here just as anyone else is.
Perhaps they should be invited.
I for one won't sign up to their forum. Don't think I would last very long, but if anyone else wishes to invite an ed rep here I am fine with it. (No spamming or trolling on behalf of DIYMA please)

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Old 06-10-2008   #15
 
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

I thought all sound deadening products were exactly the same, just like the home depot roofing material. Hmmm...
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Old 06-10-2008   #16
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

i have some v1SE and its begun to peel off of my rear deck. It has been hot here in TX and the stuff is mounted upside down.... but I'm a bit surprised by this. Some could be installer error as i did not use any tools to put it down with. But come to think of it niether did my friend who used dynamat extreme in his doors and they have no issues with adhesion.... hmmm.
we'll see how it holds up over summer.
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Old 06-10-2008   #17
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

i will be using dynamat etreme in my dooes when it comes time to install....
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Old 06-10-2008   #18
 
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Mine fell off miserably when I used them last time.
Never will I use them.

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Old 06-10-2008   #19
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

hey Don,

see if you can get a chance to try out some V1UE, i am curious as well as how well it fairs against the Se, i myself have not used an ounce of Se for umm two years? whenever the UE came out, i switched over completely...and like i have said, i have yet to see any major failures using the stuff...

i heosntly have no reason to stay wtih Edead if it starts to fail but i honetsly havent seen it, juts to give you an example, when i ripped out my old system, my spare tire well, which was dmapened with a combination of V3 liquid, V1se (long time ago) and UE (about 1.5 years ago), looked like hte picture below, this is just pulling it out, and as you can see, i dont see much of it coming unglued? and only the floor portion was pinched against the subbox, the rest was just open, so if it wanted to come off, it could, and over the last two years, we certainly had 110 degree weather for prolonged periods of time..

just curious thats all
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Old 06-10-2008   #20
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

Quote:
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hey Don,

see if you can get a chance to try out some V1UE, i am curious as well as how well it fairs against the Se, i myself have not used an ounce of Se for umm two years? whenever the UE came out, i switched over completely...and like i have said, i have yet to see any major failures using the stuff...

i heosntly have no reason to stay wtih Edead if it starts to fail but i honetsly havent seen it, juts to give you an example, when i ripped out my old system, my spare tire well, which was dmapened with a combination of V3 liquid, V1se (long time ago) and UE (about 1.5 years ago), looked like hte picture below, this is just pulling it out, and as you can see, i dont see much of it coming unglued? and only the floor portion was pinched against the subbox, the rest was just open, so if it wanted to come off, it could, and over the last two years, we certainly had 110 degree weather for prolonged periods of time..

just curious thats all
If anybody wants to send me an 8" square of recently purchased UE or V1Č, I'd be happy to test it and compare the results to the tests I did last year. PM me for my address.

The problem with the V1Č was immediately obvious - the adhesive bond strength was extremely weak and the Mylar facing had a very strong intrinsic curl. Oddly the v1Č Mylar was 3.5 mils thick vs the V1SEČ's 1.5 mils. With the adhesive removed, a 1" square piece of V1Č' Mylar curled up to the thickness of a toothpick. The V1SEČ curled up to the thickness of a drinking straw. The UE used a 4.5 mil Mylar with less curl than either of the other two. Since the V1SE's adhesive formula has apparently changed, I guess it is possible that UE is different now too.
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Old 06-10-2008   #21
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

One more note on the Mylar vs. aluminum foil debate. Everything I've seen convinces me that that foil is superior - both in terms of vibration damping and the ability of the product to act as a barrier. These features are difficult to quantify. There can be no doubt that foil and Mylar behave differently in use. Foil deforms to the contours of the underlying surface to which it is applied. Once it's installed, foil doesn't fight to resume it's original shape.

If you want to use liquid and mat, aluminum foil is again the better choice. The logical way to combine these products is to apply the mat and then apply the liquid on top of it. The liquid will reinforce the constraining layer - improving that response. It also lets you apply the butyl adhesive, which is impervious to moisture, directly to the sheet metal instead of to the porous surface of the cured liquid. If you haven't let the liquid cure completely (takes up to 30 days), you risk trapping moisture between the mat and the substrate.

ED actually recommends applying liquid and then mat on top of it. I can not find a single supporting reason to do this. The problem is that liquid doesn't adhere to plastic very well. eDead is faced with Mylar (plastic). A shortcoming of the product requires you to follow their procedure. There's no advantage for the user.
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Old 06-10-2008   #22
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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I have no quams with anyone from ed signing up to our forum.
They are welcome here just as anyone else is.
Perhaps they should be invited.
I for one won't sign up to their forum. Don't think I would last very long, but if anyone else wishes to invite an ed rep here I am fine with it. (No spamming or trolling on behalf of DIYMA please)

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Old 06-10-2008   #23
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

i still need to send you samples of the stuff i have. I can't remember which i bought. i'll check online brb. i have v1^2 not the se. i'll send samples to test.
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Old 06-10-2008   #24
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

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Old 06-10-2008   #25
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: DFW Texas
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Default Re: eDead V1SEČ - Be Careful

I talked with an ED rep via their online chat tool on their site before lunch. He said that they test the mat in temperatures up to 900 degrees with a heat gun and haven't had any problems like the ones in this post.

I'm not for or against this product. I've only used second skin stuff and have had nothing but great results so I have no reason to switch.
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