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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-22-2013 11:06 AM
avanti1960
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

recently switched off the rear full range, time aligned components. possibly doing an about face on the benefits of rear fill, in my case rear fully active.
the trial centers around the idea that I have been missing out on the best possible SQ and hearing destructive or comb filtering interference. this surfaces as occasional harshness or distortion that i had assumed was caused by not having a high end amplifier.
after a few days of running with muted rear channels and a trial re-tune for front stage only- some observations:
1) seems much easier to tune a front stage only. after a few EQ repositions I had the system sounding better than ever but not fully refined yet.
2) the stage seems narrower but better focused
3) learning not to miss the benefits of rear drivers- an incredible spaciousness and 3-dimensional field of coverage- in favor of better overall sound quality / cleaner sound.

I'll continue to refine the tune and see where it takes me- will front stage only stay or go?
Attempts at using decoupled, delayed band passed rear fill are also possible.

I would love to add a dolby surround processor- turning the rear drivers into surrond logic speakers- but the only outboard processors that include it are significant investments- e.g. MS-8 and the PXA-H800 plus controller. most likely will not happen.
Pioneer used to make an outboard Dolby surround box- this would be a nice cost effective option but currently unavailable.
12-25-2012 05:15 PM
Mike 01Hawk
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I'm running my stockers off HU power, AVH-P4400BH, faded to the front quite a bit. Eh <shrug>
12-20-2012 05:00 PM
momofx
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Rear fill without proper processing depends on the actual vehicle's interior acoustics and most importantly, wether YOU think it sounds good to YOUR ears or not! In my years as an installer, I must say that most people prefer rear fill. When done correctly, it can sound pretty good but then again thats how I feel and another person might think otherwise.

Personal preference - that's why we are all made differently
11-25-2012 09:56 PM
quickaudi07
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobditts View Post
if I had the money, i would love to try and tackle the issue. I dont have the control or processing power to get the desired results with rear fill. im really interested to see (if it ever happens) the tear down of Mr. Biggs vehicle and see how his rear fill setup was accomplished.
I have rear fill. And u cant really tell they are on.... but again im usi g H800

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
11-12-2012 06:05 PM
avanti1960
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

has anyone tried using time alignment to delay the rear speakers and create a concert hall effect?
11-12-2012 12:24 PM
emperorjj1
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT34237 View Post
I listen to Electronic Music which doesn't have a "stage" as this website describes it...

What is Sound Quality and How is it Judged | Tutorials | Team Audionutz

I've been to shows where they did have speakers ALL AROUND YOU not just in the front. Anyone else listen to this genre of music and still enjoy without using rearfill? I want that same "ALL AROUND EFFECT" that I get at the shows.
just use rear fill then. at the end of the day if you like how it sounds then thats all tha matters
11-12-2012 07:22 AM
aranawhite
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I like the rear fill, i know it doesn't image properly but i'm used to surround movies and the rear fill just feels better. I haven't been able to tweak a proper front stage anyway and if it's not right i definitely like the full sound of the rear fill.
11-10-2012 04:13 PM
JT34237
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I listen to Electronic Music which doesn't have a "stage" as this website describes it...

What is Sound Quality and How is it Judged | Tutorials | Team Audionutz

I've been to shows where they did have speakers ALL AROUND YOU not just in the front. Anyone else listen to this genre of music and still enjoy without using rearfill? I want that same "ALL AROUND EFFECT" that I get at the shows.
05-09-2012 01:01 AM
emperorjj1
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

im confused by that statement
05-08-2012 11:09 PM
gtsdohcvvtli
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

hows this for an idea.......

4 door sedan. Rear speakers are in the rear doors

For rear fill, 1 way mid bass driver band passed for mid bass only
02-20-2012 07:58 PM
questi1
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeDeeEye View Post
I have a Sony Mobile ES system and it offers several surround sound options, so I'll be using rear fill to take advantage of that.
Hey, what kind of HU / Processor are you running? I know some of the lower processors like the XDP-U50d have surround options, but i never gave it much thought.
01-21-2012 04:53 AM
Tdx_Kid
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

i totally agree with wrx/sti, plus having a nice front set up can definitely give you the eargasm you desire, having the right set up
i dont use rear fill and dont ever plan on it, but that's my opinion
01-17-2012 08:56 PM
rallypoint_1
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

No rears. My car, a 1990 civic, is small. I used to run rears but always sounded weird. It was messing with the front stage.
12-04-2011 10:52 AM
avanti1960
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I absolutely use it and just recently did an experiment in my vehicle that prompted me to order a 5-channel amp (JL HD900) and upgraded Focal components for the rear doors.

Since the rear speakers (cheap coaxials) are currently driven by the head unit I have basically faded them out of the mix in favor of the front amplified Focal 165 V30s.

However, even with this nice setup (decent sub in rear) I was still missing some of the richness of the original factory setup in my small SUV.

So I lowered the gains of the amp to a minimum and faded in the rear speakers and voila, the richness and fullness returned. More of a rich midbass fill, not a competing high frequency sound stage just some mid bass fill. It sounded really really nice and was what I had been missing all along.
Unfortunately this setup puts you at the mercy of the head unit's power limits, therefore the on order 5-channel amp and speaker upgrade.

Bottom line, I believe some vehicles are tuned to include a set of rear channel drivers, even for the benefit of the front passengers, especially in the cavernous volume of an SUV, even a smaller one.

The rear doors in my vehicle are actually much much better than the front doors in allowing the speakers to produce bass- even when the front doors have been sealed and deadened, the rear doors just allow the speakers to produce extremely higher levels of bass response and I believe the vehicle engineers counted on this in the experience of the total system.
To further prove this point, I had measured speaker distances to my ears among the front, rear and sub woofer drivers to help calculate time alignment.

When I did this I found that in my driving position the front midbass drivers, right and left, are THE EXACT SAME DISTANCE to my ears as their rear door counterparts. Talk about planning and engineering! Thank you Toyota, I can't wait to get my new amp and rear speakers!
12-04-2011 07:59 AM
EeeDeeEye
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I have a Sony Mobile ES system and it offers several surround sound options, so I'll be using rear fill to take advantage of that.
11-26-2011 08:04 PM
quickaudi07 I have morel in the back doors but also I have ms8 for sound processing and I love it. They are a full component set....

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
11-25-2011 01:44 PM
NgoFcukinWay
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

i have the coaxial speakers sitting around in my room, so i'll be going ahead and using them as rear fill so they just don't sit around and collect dust.
10-11-2011 12:46 PM
sq_guru
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I tried both in my PLII system, and again it's personal preference, but I as well as nearly everyone who listened to it agreed that the rear channels made a positive impact on the system.
10-11-2011 09:58 AM
WRX/Z28
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sq_guru View Post
+1

I use low-pass "rear fill" when I have Dolby PLII processing with time alignment. In this case, it's not so much rear fill as it is a multi-channel DSP system.
The biggest problem I have with this, is that the rear's themselves will have their own early reflections, and even with ~20 millisecond of delay, will never truly approach the minor 'ambiance' accentuating effects of a large environment. Also, you will now have two rear 'reflections' in the car, the real one coming from your front stage, and now a 2nd false one attempting to be recreated by your 'rear stage'. Rear speakers, even attenuated and delayed ~20ms, will still be direct sound, and not reflected sound.

The short answer is, there is no method that will account for all of this.

You're adding too many ripples to an already wavy pond... soon it's just going to be a bunch of foam and bubbles from trying to make the pond act like a great lake. IMO, better to just accept that you have a pond, and work with what you have.
10-11-2011 12:37 AM
sq_guru
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
Big difference between a concert hall and car: size of the acoustic space!

And it's NOT just a relative difference ... there's a real, tangible threshold involved, as defined by the Haas Effect. In a car, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will not exceed the precedence effect (about 20msec, if memory serves) ... meaning that natural reflections will only tend to smear and confuse the front stage. In a concert hall, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will exceed the precedence threshold.

So if you delay the rear fill by ~20msec or slightly more, you can create an apparent acoustic space that is much larger ... without confusing or ruining the front stage. This is a good thing Yes, we face the orchestra in a concert hall ... a classic argument against dumb rear fill ... but we also sense that the concert hall is bigger than about 25 cubic feet ... a very good argument in favor of smart rear fill

How to best accomplish it, is perhaps a discussion for another thread. You need a processor with time alignment, and the ability to bandlimit the rears. The difference signal can be formed either actively before the amp (trivial with balanced signals, not even hard with transformers and single-ended signals), or speaker-level after the amp (the classic Hafler matrix was the old, dumb example ... with no time delay, and even only crude attenuation and bandlimiting). But here's an interesting link for further reading:

http://www.mlssa.com/surround/surround3.htm

Of course, you may want to consider the options mentioned above ... Dolby Pro Logic II (invented by Fosgate with an automotive acoustic space in mind), DTS Neo:6, and the new Harman Logic7 processor for the car (which, by the way, is starting to get some very encouraging reviews). All of these options create a multi-channel signal from a 2-channel source, and make very intelligent use of speakers behind your head

I guess my main point is this : all "rear-fill" is not created equal It's important to distinguish what type, before we summarily embrace or dismiss the entire category.
+1

I use low-pass "rear fill" when I have Dolby PLII processing with time alignment. In this case, it's not so much rear fill as it is a multi-channel DSP system.
10-02-2011 10:27 PM
ebrahim
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I did have coaxials in the rear now and then and to be honest prefer no speakers in the rear. What I learned from this is that if you have passengers in the rear they do not like speakers up in the front only but have some in the rear. I learned this when I took out my rears for the day and I had a rear passenger crying because there was no rear speakers and all he heard was the bass.

Now if you did not know people like me if they are any other that love techno music and in all honesty rears are not that big of a deal because if tuned right and when you have subwoofer volume control feature on your headunit then you can always turn the volume of your subwoofer down [low] if you have passengers in the rear.

Hoped this helped.
10-02-2011 10:12 PM
WRX/Z28
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Ulriched View Post
Hahaha...I dont imagine myself sitting with the stage infront of me...im imagining that im in the middle of the stage.....
Well, then you're the performer, not the audience. What instrument are you playing while your in the middle of the stage?

Nevermind, stage security, get this guy back in the audience where he belongs...
10-02-2011 10:11 PM
WRX/Z28
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Just realized how negative I sounded... sorry about that.

Personally I don't see much value in 5.1 music. That's not to say that others don't enjoy it. It's the only useful purpose I can see for rear fill in a car, but then it's not really fill, it's a true independant channel with independant information. The biggest problem in a car is the seperation and placement of your drivers/channels. IMO to truly appreciate 5.1, you need a medium to large sized room with the ability to space your front speakers 10ft apart, and your rear speakers minimum 8ft apart. This is pretty much impossible in the car, unless you own a bus or RV.

Setting up 2ch properly in a car is tricky enough, adding in a center and rears is a nightmare, especially from a tuning standpoint. This is one of the best examples of the KISS theory. Until you master the wheel, stop trying to reinvent it, or improve on it.
10-02-2011 09:59 PM
Lars Ulriched
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 View Post
Surround sound for music is a complete waste. What concert have you ever been to where half the band was behind you? Improperly processed rear fill can and will completely destroy your sound stage. Properly processed, it doesn't add much, but at least it's not as destructive...
Hahaha...I dont imagine myself sitting with the stage infront of me...im imagining that im in the middle of the stage.....
10-02-2011 09:56 PM
Lars Ulriched
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by emperorjj1 View Post
do you actually play or have dts disks? i have a handful of surround sound audio but would like to know where i can get more
Im using a normal CD in DTS format...downloaded from the nets...lots on them if u google....
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