I want to check my calculations. Please critique.

[MarkZ]

Now I see what you guys mean.

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

1. Speakers don't require an enclosure. Baffle? Yes. Enclosure? No, especially when a high pass filter is used.

2. Car companies' desires for high-end branded audio systems refutes your suggestion that consumers don't care about the quality of the audio systems in their cars. Furthermore, plenty of studies about listening preferences suggest just the opposite of your statement.

Note that I didn't mention JBL aftermarket systems in my analysis.
They are the only setups I've actually been pleased with in cars. My rant was more about Bose than anything else.

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by shadowfactory

Clipping an amp never means 'proper output' you idiot, and of course two 12's have 'more output' than one 10, your problem had nothing to do with clipping ever and everything to do with you preference for more bass. Stop blaming your equipment when you don't have the right things in place.

Didn't I tell you to shut up already?

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by ca90ss

I suggest you stop now before further embarrassing yourself.

http://www.irational.org/sic/radio/solder.html

Solder melts at around 190 degrees Centigrade, and the bit reaches a temperature of over 250 degrees Centigrade.

It takes 200-degrees for copper to double resistance which would be 3db power compression. It takes 190-degrees to melt solder. At what point am I to be embarassed now?

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Do you have proof to support this assertion?

Proof:

Power compression question - CARSOUND.COM Forum

Power compression comes from heating the voice coil. As you heat metals, the resistance of the metal increases. Heat copper by 200 deg C, and you double the resistance of the copper. That means you just doubled the DCR of your woofer, which will cause a 3 dB loss in output.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

---------------------------------------

Hi tspence,

I'm sorry for the delay. I was waiting on a reply from one of
our engineers. According to our engineers, we do not test for power
compression in our full range component systems or the coaxial type
speakers. Testing has found the effects to be negligible when listening
to music at the speaker's rated power or lower. The result of serious
power compression caused by excessive heat would cause the speakers to
fail.


Sincerely,
James Pagano
Internet Support Specialist
Harman Consumer Group
Woodbury, NY

How much more proof do you want? I'm sure I can find more if you want it. I'm sure you "know what you guys mean" now, huh? You shouldn't just trust what others tell you without links and proof like I'm posting here. If you disagree with me, then you disagree with the sources of the info I'm posting.

[ca90ss]

Originally Posted by tspence73

Solder melts at around 190 degrees Centigrade, and the bit reaches a temperature of over 250 degrees Centigrade.

It takes 200-degrees for copper to double resistance which would be 3db power compression. It takes 190-degrees to melt solder. At what point am I to be embarassed now?

We're talking about vc temp not speaker terminal temp. Why don't you take in to account tire temperature while you're at it.

[t3sn4f2]

It's magic!. I've also seen it happen on my pots and pans. Those babies get scorching hot but the rubber handle on them never melts. Spooky physics!

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by tspence73

Proof:

Power compression question - CARSOUND.COM Forum

Power compression comes from heating the voice coil. As you heat metals, the resistance of the metal increases. Heat copper by 200 deg C, and you double the resistance of the copper. That means you just doubled the DCR of your woofer, which will cause a 3 dB loss in output.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

---------------------------------------

Hi tspence,

I'm sorry for the delay. I was waiting on a reply from one of
our engineers. According to our engineers, we do not test for power
compression in our full range component systems or the coaxial type
speakers. Testing has found the effects to be negligible when listening
to music at the speaker's rated power or lower. The result of serious
power compression caused by excessive heat would cause the speakers to
fail.


Sincerely,
James Pagano
Internet Support Specialist
Harman Consumer Group
Woodbury, NY

How much more proof do you want? I'm sure I can find more if you want it. I'm sure you "know what you guys mean" now, huh? You shouldn't just trust what others tell you without links and proof like I'm posting here. If you disagree with me, then you disagree with the sources of the info I'm posting.

An "internet support specialist's" word isn't exactly proof. Especially when Dan Wiggins contradicts him in the first thing you wrote. Maybe you can show me the outcome of the so-called test and a description of how it was performed? Or...well, we could just trust the word of the marketing department of a manufacturer.

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by tspence73

I'm telling you and have told you that I will ultimately do things 'my way'. I will listen to suggestions, ideas and guidance but it is my system and I will make the decisions on how to proceed. You may not agree with or accept my logic but I can virtually guarantee you that my system will sound amazing when all my projects are done and the tuning is complete.

If your mind is already made up stop posting for advice.

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by tspence73

Didn't I tell you to shut up already?

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by tspence73

Solder melts at around 190 degrees Centigrade, and the bit reaches a temperature of over 250 degrees Centigrade.

There are like 20 different solder alloys all with different melting points.....

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by shadowfactory

If your mind is already made up stop posting for advice.

When I know everything then I'll stop asking for advice. I'm not the most knowledgable person but I try to apply what I know the best I can. I take advice, think about it and apply it as I think I should. Only here does it seem to be wrong to ask I suppose. So sue me for not taking every piece of advice offered. I'm thankful for what people want to share and some of this info has been good to add to what I'm trying to accomplish. Some of it is optional.

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by tspence73

When I know everything then I'll stop asking for advice.

When you become the omnipotent GOD?

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by tspence73

When I know everything then I'll stop asking for advice. I'm not the most knowledgable person but I try to apply what I know the best I can. I take advice, think about it and apply it as I think I should. Only here does it seem to be wrong to ask I suppose. So sue me for not taking every piece of advice offered. I'm thankful for what people want to share and some of this info has been good to add to what I'm trying to accomplish. Some of it is optional.

The coil can withstand that temp, the wire that connects to the terminal can too, BUT the single strand that connects the coil to the terminal does not get that hot since the heat is generated where the magnetic field is produced which is not part of the single stand going to the coil.

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

The coil can withstand that temp, the wire that connects to the terminal can too, BUT the single strand that connects the coil to the terminal does not get that hot since the heat is generated where the magnetic field is produced which is not part of the single stand going to the coil.

What about heat transference? In time any metal connected to that heat source will conduct that heat, eventually all the way up the speaker wire and to the amp, kicking it into protect. The solder would have long melted before 200-degrees celcius reached up the wire to the amp.

[Rudeboy]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Now I see what you guys mean.

Has to be experience to be believed.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by tspence73

What about heat transference? In time any metal connected to that heat source will conduct that heat, eventually all the way up the speaker wire and to the amp, kicking it into protect.

The heat will escape to its surrounding or the wire will burn up well before it can transfer to the terminal. Pots and Pans!

[Jimi77]

Originally Posted by tspence73

There is usually little to no compression on speakers that play within their stated RMS rating. The RE SE 12's have a 600-watt RMS rating EACH. That marries perfectly to the amp's 1200-watt RMS peak output. THERE IS NO POWER COMPRESSION GOING ON HERE. Please STOP.

Only speakers playing outside their RMS ratings have power compression. Okay if you say so.

Seriously, if you don't what you're talking about (which is almost always), then don't say anything.

Audio and Loudspeaker Design Guide Lines

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul0.../monitors2.asp

Feel the magnet or the cone the next time you've been blasting the system and tell me the VCs aren't reaching well over 120 degrees.

[Rudeboy]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

The heat will escape to its surrounding or the wire will burn up well before it can transfer to the terminal. Pots and Pans!

Wait, you mean I don't need all of my speaker wire fans?

[tspence73]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

The heat will escape to its surrounding or the wire will burn up well before it can transfer to the terminal. Pots and Pans!

In other words, if your coil stays too long at a temperature of 200 degrees celcius, bye bye voice coil. 200-degrees = 3db of power compression. Most speakers will not be a 200-degrees at any time and if it is, it's reaching the thermal limits of the voice coil or it's surrounding components. Hence, it's unlikely my subs are reaching anywhere near 200-degrees celcius with an average of 300-400 watts spread amongst 4 voice coils. Therefore the power compression, if any, is likely less than 1db of loss, hence INAUDIBLE. That was my point. Power compression in my subwoofers at my current settings are not going to be an issue. The argument on that point should be closed now.

[Jimi77]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

But why are people minimizing the impact of 3dB? For subwoofer applications, that's nearly a doubling of perceived loudness. 3dB is a very big deal, IMO.

I'm not minimizing the impact. I'm pointing out that Tspence is calling other people stupid, then goes on to make an inaccurate statement and has now followed it up with another inaccurate statement. Technically even 1 db has some impact. FYI, I believe it's 10db = "twice" as loud.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by Rudeboy

Wait, you mean I don't need all of my speaker wire fans?

It can help push the electrons along if you aim them the right way though.

[shadowfactory]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

It can help push the electrons along if you aim them the right way though.

All my speaker wires are directional so the electrons flow better away from the amp.

[Jimi77]

Originally Posted by Rudeboy

This is exactly why you get the reaction you do - I asked you to explain the thinking that leads you to believe that the passive x-over you have might impart a "sonic signature" that improves the speakers' ability to reproduce music. Instead you dare me to find a suitable place to hide your amp and allow that you might consider running active in the future. I'm not going to figure out where yo can mount an amp and I couldn't care less if you run passive or active. I asked you to provide some evidence for your position, that's all.

Ironically, tspence rejects any advice given that isn't "proven" with some sort of scientific dissertation, yet doesn't hold himself to the same standard.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by Jimi77

I'm not minimizing the impact. I'm pointing out that Tspence is calling other people stupid, then goes on to make an inaccurate statement and has now followed it up with another inaccurate statement. Technically even 1 db has some impact. FYI, I believe it's 10db = "twice" as loud.

No such thing as "twice as loud". It'd be like saying something hurts twice as much.