...the crusades would have never occurred if it was not for Muslim expansion and aggression, trying to isolate Jerusalem.
(Hmmmm.... kinda like the slow, creeping takeover of the whole middle east, happening today!)
AAAAACtually...
The first crusade started in 1095 ish was issued from pope Urban the second. He (and lots of other Europeans) were pretty peeved that the holy city was not in their hands anymore and as such must have been disgraced. He preached about getting the land back by saying we need to clean it of its current filth etc. Then, he made a bit of an exaggeration in which he stated that the Muslims were attacking Christians there, rape, etc. In what I have read in a few sources, both sides were doing this, so he was not "lying" as some assert, but he certainly stretched the truth on the matter. He rounded up a bunch of people interested in getting the place back with promises of 100 fold riches and life in the afterlife...(sounds like other promises we hear nowadays? mumble mumble virgins mumble mumble). He calls the council of Clermont, and walla. The first crusade STARTED by Pope Urban the Second.
For the record, I got the info from many sources, but here are two books in particular which seemed to have the least bias in them:
Tradition & diversity: Christianity in a world context to 1500
The First Crusade: A New History
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That was SCIENCE and doctors/nurses that got rid of the cancer. Without it there wouldn't have been a chance of survival, dont believe me then dont go to the hospital or doctors when your sick or have something serious like cancer then we'll see if "GOD" saves you or your love ones. Just my .02 cents.
Fricassee, Ricky has a point. God works through means. In my Christian opinion, miracles are the exception rather than the rule. Of course God can use science to accomplish His purposes. God is the Creator, and the order that He created can be understood through science.
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Fricassee, Ricky has a point. God works through means. In my Christian opinion, miracles are the exception rather than the rule. Of course God can use science to accomplish His purposes. God is the Creator, and the order that He created can be understood through science.
I can agree with that.
'84 GN 10.60@ 127mph. Infinity 3.5 coaxials and a cheap Sony HU.
The first crusade started in 1095 ish was issued from pope Urban the second. He (and lots of other Europeans) were pretty peeved that the holy city was not in their hands anymore and as such must have been disgraced. He preached about getting the land back by saying we need to clean it of its current filth etc. Then, he made a bit of an exaggeration in which he stated that the Muslims were attacking Christians there, rape, etc. In what I have read in a few sources, both sides were doing this, so he was not "lying" as some assert, but he certainly stretched the truth on the matter. He rounded up a bunch of people interested in getting the place back with promises of 100 fold riches and life in the afterlife...(sounds like other promises we hear nowadays? mumble mumble virgins mumble mumble). He calls the council of Clermont, and walla. The first crusade STARTED by Pope Urban the Second.
For the record, I got the info from many sources, but here are two books in particular which seemed to have the least bias in them:
Tradition & diversity: Christianity in a world context to 1500
The First Crusade: A New History
AAAAAaaaaactually...
Why was Jerusalem no longer accessible?
This is a major problem with those "crusading" against Christians, and those who are opposed to Israel, today. It's OK for others to be the aggressors, but when Christians or Israel respond, then they're the ones in the wrong.
"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare." ~Mark Twain
This is a major problem with those "crusading" against Christians, and those who are opposed to Israel, today. It's OK for others to be the aggressors, but when Christians or Israel respond, then they're the ones in the wrong.
If you want to claim the moral high ground as yours you have to be ready to accept criticism when the actions you take are immoral, or hypocritical. Personally, I don't believe it is okay for anybody to be an aggressor, but in the case of Israel... well, the path I'm going with this is obvious.
That is why christians are the easiest target, your entire belief system sets you up to be hypocrites and sinners while at the same time skewing your belief to think that anybody but yourself can be wrong.
If you want to claim the moral high ground as yours you have to be ready to accept criticism when the actions you take are immoral, or hypocritical. Personally, I don't believe it is okay for anybody to be an aggressor, but in the case of Israel... well, the path I'm going with this is obvious.
That is why christians are the easiest target, your entire belief system sets you up to be hypocrites and sinners while at the same time skewing your belief to think that anybody but yourself can be wrong.
What about Israel? They only retaliate when attacked and even then they don't always retaliate. They have neighbors that believe they have no right to exist and are trying to do everything possible to make sure they do not exist. How is it ok to try and wipe out an entire country and terrorize them but it's not ok for that country to defend itself?
You have a very limited understanding of Christianity judging by that second paragraph. Those beliefs you listed are made up by yourself, they are not those of Christians.
'84 GN 10.60@ 127mph. Infinity 3.5 coaxials and a cheap Sony HU.
If you want to claim the moral high ground as yours you have to be ready to accept criticism when the actions you take are immoral, or hypocritical. Personally, I don't believe it is okay for anybody to be an aggressor, but in the case of Israel... well, the path I'm going with this is obvious.
That is why christians are the easiest target, your entire belief system sets you up to be hypocrites and sinners while at the same time skewing your belief to think that anybody but yourself can be wrong.
I agree with you Boosted.
@ Freedom: I agree that the Turks (although remember that there are 3 major forms of Islam at this point with enough distinction to be considered separate religions, similar to the distinctions between the Jews, Catholics, and then emerging Christian label) had occupied the land, taking it I am sure by means of attack. However, they were not fighting an entire religion, they were trying to regain what they also considered to be their holy land. Urban flat out declared war against the Turks (specifically Seljuk I believe), which then spread to all Muslims.
I am not saying that the Muslims were in the clear, but I do want to state that their war was not genocidal at the heart of it. This speaks to Boosted's statement of hypocracy; where is it in the bible that an entire ethnicity, race, religion, etc of people should be killed? Oh, wait a second....
1 Samuel 15:2-3
"This is what the LORD almighty says 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as the came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys'"
I am sure similar hypocracies exist in the Qur'an but I do not know it very well. My point is not to lambaste Christians, but to argue that all religion is very similar, and that yes, Christianity was the cause of bad things to many. You can argue about who did what first, but what happened to turn the other cheek? (Playing devil's advocate with that last line)
I would also like to point out two things:
-The land never belonged to anyone, including the Christians. IF it belonged to anyone, it should be the Jews, as they were there before the Christians. Under that pretext, the Christians were aggressors just the same as the Turks. Along these lines, I think I was clear to point out that the Turks (I forget which of the 3 major branches of Islam they were but I think Seljuk) were occupying the land at that time. I am not trying to crucify (intended) the Christians, just prove the point that they initiated the crusades.
-I believe that Israel has as much ownership in the land they control as any country does. They took more than their allotment after the war to expand the same way nearly every nation has; by force and politics. However, I feel that since the US signed on the side of the allotment, not the captured land, we should not support them in the capacity we currently do, especially with their endeavors there.
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What about Israel? They only retaliate when attacked and even then they don't always retaliate. They have neighbors that believe they have no right to exist and are trying to do everything possible to make sure they do not exist. How is it ok to try and wipe out an entire country and terrorize them but it's not ok for that country to defend itself?
You have a very limited understanding of Christianity judging by that second paragraph. Those beliefs you listed are made up by yourself, they are not those of Christians.
See Israel's history, post 1947. Especially the part about them taking over several territories designated for other countries including Palestine. They were given a sovereign nation however decided it was not enough.
Again, I do not critique this, as nearly every nation has done the same. Just do not assume they are perfect innocent angles, that's all.
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What about Israel? They only retaliate when attacked and even then they don't always retaliate. They have neighbors that believe they have no right to exist and are trying to do everything possible to make sure they do not exist. How is it ok to try and wipe out an entire country and terrorize them but it's not ok for that country to defend itself?
You have a very limited understanding of Christianity judging by that second paragraph. Those beliefs you listed are made up by yourself, they are not those of Christians.
These beliefs have been established from a vantage point based outside the fishbowl. It is easy to see what christians say they believe and what they actually believe when you aren't all tied up in the ideology. Can you say you are capable of that perspective... it seems to me that you are fairly entrenched in the situation I have outlined above. I have the benefit of not having the belief syste tied to my personhood therefore I can be an impartial observer. Those are my impartial observations.
Now, about Israel. What about that ship they boarded looking for weapons (which didn't exist) as part of their humanitarian blockade of palestine. You know, the state they are slowly but surely driving into the sea?
They have absolutely no moral standing to do what they are doing. Even our rule of law observes measured response in regards to self defense... Israel NEVER responds with a measured response and therefore they are open to criticism when they respond to what amounts to a pea shooter attack in comparsion to their american supplied weapons of mass destruction.
Now, do I believe palestinians are okay people for firing rockets into israel in hopes to kill innocent israelis... first of all, I guess I have to ask myself the question if ther e ARE any innocent israelis. As far as I know, every person regardless of sex other than the super elite religious figures have to take part in the israeli war machine, whereas in palestine the population by in large is controlled by lawless thugs, a state of inverse hegemony if you can wrap your mind around it. The actions of an extreme (in terms of ideology) few have become represented in the media as the actions of an entire demographic of people.
Where I am not pro hamas, I do understand that a marginalized people will turn to those they believe will support their best interests, in the case of the palestinians, this is clearly NOT israel. So they reach out to the other arab states in the region who, by in large (possibly legitimately, hard to tell with the historical record completely fucked) DO have a problem with israel. The palestinians are completely fucked by their situation. They can't go to their neighbours or they're terrorist enemies, and they can't go to israel because israel has no reason or need to deal with the palestinians.
That is essentially my reason for not fully supporting an israeli state in the region. I don't fully care why the countries in that region aren't getting along, but I do fully care that the overall victims in this situation (palestinians) are in a helpless position with no option but pea shooter attacks.
What about Israel? They only retaliate when attacked and even then they don't always retaliate. They have neighbors that believe they have no right to exist and are trying to do everything possible to make sure they do not exist. How is it ok to try and wipe out an entire country and terrorize them but it's not ok for that country to defend itself?
You have a very limited understanding of Christianity judging by that second paragraph. Those beliefs you listed are made up by yourself, they are not those of Christians.
This is called an "occupation". And militarily speaking, nobody ever wins an occupation.
Re: The "Let's Troll the Atheists" thread!
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