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Old 03-27-2012   #51
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

has anyone seen "A noble lie" ?

I think there is a movie coming out this year about 911

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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Old 03-27-2012   #52
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron Groog View Post
Interesting read, but I'd have to agree with some of the naysayers:

He may be a pilot, but is not a civil/aeronautical engineer and Lears are a Ferrari to a Boing's juggernaut. Anyone ever seen how thick the aluminium of a plane's wing is? It's thicker than the steel in a girder, much thicker. Also tempered aluminium is weight for weight stronger than steel-just more expensive so buildings etc don't get made from it.

Planes defo hit the building, I didn't read the full article, but there's no arguement with the video footage/1000s of witnesses.

Steel does become malleable at much lower temperatures than quoted by M-Dub, add to that the pressure of the rest of the building sitting atop it and that temperature will drop. In Japan they consider 400deg C too hot for structural steel to handle:

"Steel loses strength when heated sufficiently. The critical temperature of a steel member is the temperature at which it cannot safely support its load. Building codes and structural engineering standard practice defines different critical temperatures depending on the structural element type, configuration, orientation, and loading characteristics. The critical temperature is often considered the temperature at which its yield stress has been reduced to 60% of the room temperature yield stress.[6] In order to determine the fire resistance rating of a steel member, accepted calculations practice can be used,[7] or a fire test can be performed, the critical temperature of which is set by the standard accepted to the Authority Having Jurisdiction, such as a building code. In Japan, this is below 400°C[citation needed]. In China, Europe and North America (e.g., ASTM E-119), this is approximately 1000–1300F[8] (530-810C). The time it takes for the steel element that is being tested to reach the temperature set by the test standard determines the duration of the fire-resistance rating. Heat transfer to the steel can be slowed by the use of fireproofing materials, thus limiting steel temperature. Common fireproofing methods for structural steel include intumescent, endothermic and plaster coatings as well as drywall, calcium silicate cladding, and mineral or high temperature insulation mineral wool blanket."



anyone here know if a 767 can reach speeds as quoted in the official story and the official height?


that was something that caught my attention.


Reason I say that is because I read another story that also said that the "plane" that hit the pentagon could not have been 6ft off the ground and made it to the pentagon without hitting a bunch of other things nearby across the street.

there were some other things mentioned but I dont recall.


I personally never thought "planes didnt" hit the buildings . I have always thought that it was a set up.

when I saw this I wondered if it could have been a couple drones or something. I mean if it wasnt a 767 then what was it?



So does anyone know if the plane could actually do speeds stated at that level?

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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Old 03-27-2012   #53
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Jax, I believe there were a bunch of light poles that would have had to be knocked down in its direct path. And they were still standing I do believe.
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Old 03-27-2012   #54
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Ok, as long as we are entertaining delusions, let's explore WHY, and by WHOM, would this have been done ( in your OWN OPINIONS and words, please!). Think: follow the money. Who would have benefitted from the obvious collapse of the US economy that was sure to happen? To what ends? What agency would have authorized this, who would have paid for it, and who would continue to pay thousands that would have had knowledge of the operation? Do any of you have a CLUE of the logistics and prep work a demolition of this nature would require, let Alone the flight operations? Would the pentagon have gone far as to sabotage itself in a false flag operation?
Again, occam's Razor.
Think about it a bit.
I blame the simple imaginations of folks that really yearned to be screenwriters, and were given a platform for their fantasies with Al Quaida's actions. Nothing more.
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Old 03-27-2012   #55
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
has anyone seen "A noble lie" ?

I think there is a movie coming out this year about 911


its much like the 911 story. lots of people and what appears to be odd behavior and other things that dont make sense.

of course people here think I am insane...lol


Oklahoma City Bombing | Murrah Federal Building 1995 | A Noble Lie

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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Old 03-27-2012   #56
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

WHY? Oil. Bush.
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Old 03-27-2012   #57
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by rideit View Post
Ok, as long as we are entertaining delusions, let's explore WHY, and by WHOM, would this have been done ( in your OWN OPINIONS and words, please!). Think: follow the money. Who would have benefitted from the obvious collapse of the US economy that was sure to happen? To what ends? What agency would have authorized this, who would have paid for it, and who would continue to pay thousands that would have had knowledge of the operation? Do any of you have a CLUE of the logistics and prep work a demolition of this nature would require, let Alone the flight operations? Would the pentagon have gone far as to sabotage itself in a false flag operation?
Again, occam's Razor.
Think about it a bit.
I blame the simple imaginations of folks that really yearned to be screenwriters, and were given a platform for their fantasies with Al Quaida's actions. Nothing more.

false flags are real.

Al-Queada is a CIA/M6 born group of whacko idiots.



why? to bring about such things as the Patriot Act for one...since 911 we have had legislation upon legislation all geared towards Americans...and not against the "typical muslim radicals"...you know the ones that were responsible for 911 supposedly.


what agency ? CIA or FBI or both. just like all the rest of the crazy theories. They are all crazy. JFK , Oaklahoma, 911...and all seem to have federal agencies all up in the mix.


thousands of people? who said thousands of people even had a clue? everything is departmental.

in any big company with many workers you only know what you need to know or are told in order to do your part.

thousands of people didnt have to know what was going on.


Pentagon was barely scratched.


this exact scenario was propsed in the 60's to do the exact same thing. Its call Operation Northwoods.

JFK wouldnt allow it.


If I remember correctly somewhere it was stated that the CIA or FBI at one time stored all their papers in building #7 .

I also recall reading that millions of dollars were lost that day in #7.

I could be wrong and not remembering it.

I dont live to prove 911 was fake. I hadnt looked at this stuff in a long time.


I got to go for now. late for work.

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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Old 03-27-2012   #58
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

That is illogical. To what end, again? Securing an oil source to achieve continued financial dominance? I call bull. That 'action' would have (did) cause a complete collapse of our economy for DECADES. It would have beet simple to manufacture a plausible excuse to invade Iraq, he clearly did not care about public opinion. Christ, his daddy did it with no repurchases ions. Makes absolutely NO sense. Besides, Iraq wasn't exporting enough oil to offset the US lives lost, the hit to the airline industry, etc.
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Old 03-27-2012   #59
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Here is how I see 911....

1) As far as the building falling down...We all have seen STEEL buildings burn to the ground due to heat from a NORMAL fire. Then, think of the catastrophe fires where some plant of ignitables goes up and burns everything with heat that can be felt from very far away. So, if one factors in the structural...

A) Dammage from the crash
B) Dammage from the explosion
C) Dammage from the tons of burning jet fuel

From that alone several floors were going to be compromised in a very short time...and once the collapse started...who knew what would happen? The fire chiefs I guess did not think it would fall...or else they would have got all their guys out of there and away from the structure. What does the data from computer sims vs. other real life events(planes into buildings)tests show?

2) For a long time I thought all of the conspiracy theory stuff was all crap, I felt 911 did happen as we saw it.

3) The war that went into full scale after 911 was one of the larget political scams ever! So, if 911 was the start of a conspiracy then the war was the middle and the end. I think there is MUCH more to talk about regarding this than 911.

4) So, based on the war....I am not so sure the facts surrounding 911 are clear.


I have yet to read the article, but I will.....

Last edited by WLDock; 03-27-2012 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 03-27-2012   #60
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

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I blame the simple imaginations of folks that really yearned to be screenwriters, and were given a platform for their fantasies with Al Quaida's actions. Nothing more.

even if people were wanna be screenwriters...too many things are unexplained.

Do you know where al-queda came from?

Do you know that right now Al-queda is in Libya thanks to USA and also in Syria?

Its a little strange that everywhere there is a conflict there is Al-Queda.

Clinton stated coupld weeks ago we had some sort of partnership with them ..the same ones that are hidding under your bed..

BOO!

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Old 03-27-2012   #61
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

[QUOTE=rideit;1590495]That is illogical. To what end, again? Securing an oil source to achieve continued financial dominance? I call bull. That 'action' would have (did) cause a complete collapse of our economy for DECADES. It would have beet simple to manufacture a plausible excuse to invade Iraq, he clearly did not care about public opinion. Christ, his daddy did it with no repurchases ions. Makes absolutely NO sense. Besides, Iraq wasn't exporting enough oil to offset the US lives lost, the hit to the airline industry, etc.[\quote]

finishing what his daddy started.....

You think the government gives two shits about any of our lives lost? Your kidding me right?
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Old 03-27-2012   #62
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by rideit View Post
That is illogical. To what end, again? Securing an oil source to achieve continued financial dominance? I call bull. That 'action' would have (did) cause a complete collapse of our economy for DECADES. It would have beet simple to manufacture a plausible excuse to invade Iraq, he clearly did not care about public opinion. Christ, his daddy did it with no repurchases ions. Makes absolutely NO sense. Besides, Iraq wasn't exporting enough oil to offset the US lives lost, the hit to the airline industry, etc.

I know. he did if for WMD's which we never found. Nuclear program that was wiped out years ago. ..

we have been making money off the wars but more from poppy than oil.


its illogical for use the be buying oil from overseas and shipping the oil we have to Japan but we do it.


we do lots of things not logical.

did you not hear Panetta say we do what the NATO and UN want?

ok. I need to go for now.

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
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Old 03-27-2012   #63
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron Groog View Post
Interesting read, but I'd have to agree with some of the naysayers:

He may be a pilot, but is not a civil/aeronautical engineer and Lears are a Ferrari to a Boing's juggernaut. Anyone ever seen how thick the aluminium of a plane's wing is? It's thicker than the steel in a girder, much thicker. Also tempered aluminium is weight for weight stronger than steel-just more expensive so buildings etc don't get made from it.

Planes defo hit the building, I didn't read the full article, but there's no arguement with the video footage/1000s of witnesses.

Steel does become malleable at much lower temperatures than quoted by M-Dub, add to that the pressure of the rest of the building sitting atop it and that temperature will drop. In Japan they consider 400deg C too hot for structural steel to handle:

"Steel loses strength when heated sufficiently. The critical temperature of a steel member is the temperature at which it cannot safely support its load. Building codes and structural engineering standard practice defines different critical temperatures depending on the structural element type, configuration, orientation, and loading characteristics. The critical temperature is often considered the temperature at which its yield stress has been reduced to 60% of the room temperature yield stress.[6] In order to determine the fire resistance rating of a steel member, accepted calculations practice can be used,[7] or a fire test can be performed, the critical temperature of which is set by the standard accepted to the Authority Having Jurisdiction, such as a building code. In Japan, this is below 400°C[citation needed]. In China, Europe and North America (e.g., ASTM E-119), this is approximately 1000–1300F[8] (530-810C). The time it takes for the steel element that is being tested to reach the temperature set by the test standard determines the duration of the fire-resistance rating. Heat transfer to the steel can be slowed by the use of fireproofing materials, thus limiting steel temperature. Common fireproofing methods for structural steel include intumescent, endothermic and plaster coatings as well as drywall, calcium silicate cladding, and mineral or high temperature insulation mineral wool blanket."

I always thought it as interesting that the videos were all filmed by professional video producers/directors. Certainly an eyebrow raiser.

Some dudes said "missile" in the videos.

A cruise missile looks a lot like a plane really far up.

I'm not saying planes didn't hit, but there's just too much weirdness around the whole thing to instantly believe it. Like passports of the hijackers popping up barely touched at the pavement of the building. Puuullleease. Also there are all sorts of video oddities and sound anomalies that are just flat out undeniable. All of it deserves close scrutiny but because we are conditioned by media to instantly throw out these details as ramblings of a crazy person, they get thrown out. Just like the steel for the buildings (EVIDENCE) was thrown out and sent to China to be melt down with extreme haste. That was also a weird thing. They completely shut down a crime scene to go through it the most thoroughly they can, but this huge crime gets evidence destroyed almost automatically.

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Old 03-27-2012   #64
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

It's the ECONOMIC disaster that the action wrought that absolutely shreds the conspiracy theorists. It completely destroys the rationales.
I will say this, there are folks on here who would be good marks to sell swamp land in Florida to, or 'no fail' condo sales in Vegas.
The febrile imagination is a destructive condition...
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Old 03-27-2012   #65
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by rideit View Post
It's the ECONOMIC disaster that the action wrought that absolutely shreds the conspiracy theorists. It completely destroys the rationales.
I will say this, there are folks on here who would be good marks to sell swamp land in Florida to, or 'no fail' condo sales in Vegas.
The febrile imagination is a destructive condition...
Economy of whom?

There are many rich that profited even more from this whole thing.

Sachs tried to get TWO times the compensation for the buildings because he claimed there were two separate attacks.

Also, you need to stop that shit you do man. The snide comments slipped in there, that you say in the middle of your posts. You were warned by a moderator on one of your very first few posts about this same very thing. You come across as someone that thinks of themselves above others. Karma takes care of people like that, just remember.

Your vocabulary is impressive and I know you enjoy using it. But the most intelligent people on this Earth say very, very little. It is what you mean, the intent, that counts.

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Old 03-27-2012   #66
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Man, this place has thin skin.
The most intelligent folks say little to friends, acquaintances, and unproductive topics. Which I basically adhere to in the flesh. However, intelligent people often codify their thoughts through writing, and discussion in appropriate mediums, of which I consider forums to be.
My thoughts are generally presented in a clear, concise manner, with appropriately precise language,leaving little room for ambiguity. I find that all to rare in folks that I engage with.
Good natured banter goes with the territory, and can be an avenue to display reciprocal wit. Sorry you choose not to participate, it can be fun!
Later for now.

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Old 03-27-2012   #67
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

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Man, this place has thin skin.
The most intelligent folks say little to friends, acquaintances, and unproductive topics. Which I basically adhere to in the flesh. However, intelligent people often codify their thoughts through writing, and discussion in appropriate mediums, of which I consider forums to be.
My thoughts are generally presented in a clear, concise manner, with appropriately precise language,leaving little room for ambiguity. I find that all to rare in folks that I engage with.
Good natured banter goes with the territory, and can be an avenue to display reciprocal wit. Sorry you choose not to participate, it can be fun!
Later for now.
Keeping this for posterity since you edited it once.


Dude what you perceive as banter is you being a jackass and subliminally belittling those around you, especially those who run counter to your view. Read Eckhart Tolle's books about Ego, and then decide what you sound like.

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Old 03-27-2012   #68
 
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Yer a poopyhead.
Is that better?
Now I gotta go.

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Old 03-27-2012   #69
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

If you're a smarty-pants, then argue through your logic. If you need to argue with JAX, you should do it with the value of your thoughts.

Your over-use of uncomfortably squeezed "intellectualism" will get you nowhere and aren't impressive.

Most of the peeps here are pretty smart and could fluff our egos through vocabulary, but you use this tactic at the risk of being condescending...to everyone.

JAX is a nut, but he is our nut. Have some respect. It becomes axiomatic in what you write.

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Old 03-27-2012   #70
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911


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My phone makes and receives calls, and can tell me the news while I'm dropping a deuce... it works just fine for me.
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the planes not crashing into the towers...at least seeing what looked like planes crashing into them.

If the planes did not crash into the buildings, what happened to the air frames of the original planes? And all of these people flew on/in something that wasn't an airplane?

I'm not saying the possibility of remote guidance or something like that being used to get the planes to hit the desired targets...or discounting preplaced demolition being used.

But if a 767 didn't fly into the buildings, what did?
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Old 03-27-2012   #72
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

I, for one, do call shenanigans. Seriously, I HAVE to wonder why the remnants of this disaster were carted off in the middle of the night as seems to be the case at the very beginning. Why wasn't there a full inspection of crime scene? That's certainly what this was, a crime scene!

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Old 03-27-2012   #73
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron Groog View Post
Interesting read, but I'd have to agree with some of the naysayers:

He may be a pilot, but is not a civil/aeronautical engineer and Lears are a Ferrari to a Boing's juggernaut. Anyone ever seen how thick the aluminium of a plane's wing is? It's thicker than the steel in a girder, much thicker. Also tempered aluminium is weight for weight stronger than steel-just more expensive so buildings etc don't get made from it.

Planes defo hit the building, I didn't read the full article, but there's no arguement with the video footage/1000s of witnesses.

Steel does become malleable at much lower temperatures than quoted by M-Dub, add to that the pressure of the rest of the building sitting atop it and that temperature will drop. In Japan they consider 400deg C too hot for structural steel to handle:

"Steel loses strength when heated sufficiently. The critical temperature of a steel member is the temperature at which it cannot safely support its load. Building codes and structural engineering standard practice defines different critical temperatures depending on the structural element type, configuration, orientation, and loading characteristics. The critical temperature is often considered the temperature at which its yield stress has been reduced to 60% of the room temperature yield stress.[6] In order to determine the fire resistance rating of a steel member, accepted calculations practice can be used,[7] or a fire test can be performed, the critical temperature of which is set by the standard accepted to the Authority Having Jurisdiction, such as a building code. In Japan, this is below 400°C[citation needed]. In China, Europe and North America (e.g., ASTM E-119), this is approximately 1000–1300F[8] (530-810C). The time it takes for the steel element that is being tested to reach the temperature set by the test standard determines the duration of the fire-resistance rating. Heat transfer to the steel can be slowed by the use of fireproofing materials, thus limiting steel temperature. Common fireproofing methods for structural steel include intumescent, endothermic and plaster coatings as well as drywall, calcium silicate cladding, and mineral or high temperature insulation mineral wool blanket."
Gotta comment the bolded.

Wings are a semi monocoque construction, they derive their strength from the ribs, the spars (which I think you are talking about) and the skins. The ribs and the skins are made out of something in the range of .042 - .060 but the spars are about 3/4" box sections of 7000 series aluminum.

It's easy to say this and that about the steel of the buildings, but annealing (taking the strength out of the metal so it can be work hardened or artificially aged) can happen aroun 60% of the melting temperature, the metal in this state is not strong in compression (ductile) and when you put a torsional load on it it will fail.

Not all steel is the same and I would be interested to find out what the alloying agent of the steel was, and the heat treatment. It all makes a massive difference in what it will take to compromise the grain structure of the metal.
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

There are definitely things wrong with the generally accepted series of events. The passport thing.. could have been a coincidence though unlikely it could just be as simple as it appears. The speeds of the aircraft? Who calculated this? The speeds quoted are barely out of the realm of possibility.

The part I have a problem with isn't so much what caused it, but why, and what happened to the evidence afterwards. Maybe it was just pride of the investigators but not knowing doesn't mean something else happened. Without other facts it seems to me the logical conclusion is planes flew into the towers and they collapsed. Anything else is beyond the scope of the information I have available to me.
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Default Re: founder of lear jets son affidavite on 911

Wow. Tin Foil Hat area for sure. too bad we will never know the truth of what really happened, but a few things are for sure:

- the towers construction wasn't meant to withstand a 767 hitting the side.
- plane did hit the towers, several eyewitnesses and videos to prove it
- the towers came down, we all saw it..
- good people died and the mere fact that some of you are trying to talk conspiracy and other BS that goes with it, is beyond shameful. I want you all to go to NY and tell the NY Firefighters that lost so many that 911 was a scam.. Or to the NYPD or the folks that worked the hole trying to find survivors.. Or to the NYPD Chaplain family, that died from a jumper.


Then to the person that brought up CIA/AQ connection. please go back and read the history of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and what the CIA actually did.. they didn't start AQ, they supported the Mujahadeen that was fighting against the Russians, it was our payback for what the Russians had done to us in Vietnam.. OBL started it after that, just like we have supported other folks that helped with our interests abroad, like Ho Chi Minh, Saddam, Noriega, and a few other..

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