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Old 04-19-2012   #1
 
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Thumbs down Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Sheesh... what's next? Big brother gonna monitor how loud your stereo can get while driving??


Government to mandate “black boxes” on passenger vehicles by 2015.


I can see a whole new (hacking) industry spring up immediately after the first car so equipped rolls off the assembly line.

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Old 04-19-2012   #2
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

These are not new, cars have had them for years. In the event of a crash/airbag deployment, it can be determined the speed of the vehicle, whether or not seatbelt(s) were in use, etc.

I guess the concern is who has or can get access to that data, but honestly I'd be more concerned about the information that systems such as OnStar are collecting.
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Old 04-19-2012   #3
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

I was reading about this quite a bit in the last few days. It looks like they are trying to work GPS and live data into these ''black boxes''. Not that there is much we can do about it unless we work in masses.

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Old 04-19-2012   #4
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jperryss View Post
These are not new, cars have had them for years. In the event of a crash/airbag deployment, it can be determined the speed of the vehicle, whether or not seatbelt(s) were in use, etc.

I guess the concern is who has or can get access to that data, but honestly I'd be more concerned about the information that systems such as OnStar are collecting.

I'm well aware of OBDII and its potential. This goes beyond that, to the point of having real-time logging and tracking capabilities.

Onstar is easy to deal with... pull the fuse. You don't think the EDR systems mandated in this legislation won't be so intertwined with the ECM that it's not easily defeatable?

Your point about who has access to the data is the HUGE elephant in the corner of the room... The legislation says it's "property of the owner", until such time as some governmental entity decides to use it against you, that is...

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Old 04-20-2012   #5
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Its a huge infringement on human rights, I very much doubt it would get through, doesn't the constitution protect your liberties-ie freedom of movement?

For GPS to work it needs a signal, some metal sheet over the aerial and they're scuppered, easy enough for anyone to do when they want to go off radar.


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Regardless, I agree with Baron

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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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Its a huge infringement on human rights, I very much doubt it would get through, doesn't the constitution protect your liberties-ie freedom of movement?
I guess you haven't followed news from the US since the 19430's when the federal government started shredding the Constitution.
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Old 04-20-2012   #7
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

lol, no human rights and idiots can still carry guns, great work


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Old 04-20-2012   #8
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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Originally Posted by The Baron Groog View Post
lol, no human rights and idiots can still carry guns, great work


"Idiots" carrying guns are our last line of defense against a tyrannical government.


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Last edited by Freedom First; 04-20-2012 at 07:30 AM.. Reason: Grammar correction
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Old 04-20-2012   #9
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If the government was so concerned about safety why are they allowing car manufacturers to build faster more powerful vehicles. The HP rating on the average family sedan has more than doubled in recent years. Buying a car with 300 isn't a big deal anymore. Most cars on the road can accelerate from 0-60 in under 6 seconds. In the 80's odometers read 85, then jumped to 120 in the early nineties, 140 after that and we're seeing 160 on average vehicles now. Yes the speeds are governed but they still do slightly less and the governor can be disabled. The speed limits have not changed so why do we need such powerful vehicles, especially since 99% of the cars on the road will never see a track. IMO, when a vehicle enters an off ramp a sensor should be tripped on the vehicle regulating its maximum speed depending on the speed limit of the given highway. To alleviate the huge dui problem install blow machines in all vehicles. Statistics prove speeding and driving under the influence are responsible for most accidents. Can it be the the government wants faster cars on the roads because they produce a lot more revenue.

IMO if the government was so concerned about safety some of these issues would be addressed. Of course the revenue created by speeding tickets and dui's is way too great to turn our backs on. Ill admit I get speeding tickets quite often and I can't remember the last time I went to court and they didn't reduce the charge for a lesser one. They weren't concerned about me accruing points to get my license suspended but the attitude is more like we better keep this guy on the streets he's a good money maker. A couple months ago I went to court in a very small town EVERYONE was charged with parking on pavement instead of speeding and I estimated the court made over $75k that night. Since the economy took a turn for the worse years ago most cops don't have they're 10mph lee way zone anymore. So ill now get a ticket driving less than 10 over the limit.

Anyway the point of my post was to show if the government was so concerned about saving lives more proactive steps would be made. Things are only OK when the government can get they're cut. For example alcohol and gambling. If there's money to be made that takes priority over all else even human life.

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Old 04-20-2012   #10
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Freedom First-I know

Duro78: there's no safety reason for the GVT to do this, they may glaze it as that, but in reality it will be used for "big brother" purposes and so they can sell the information they gleen about you-very valuable!


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Regardless, I agree with Baron

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Old 04-20-2012   #11
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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Originally Posted by duro78 View Post
If the government was so concerned about safety why are they allowing car manufacturers to build faster more powerful vehicles. The HP rating on the average family sedan has more than doubled in recent years. Buying a car with 300 isn't a big deal anymore. Most cars on the road can accelerate from 0-60 in under 6 seconds. In the 80's odometers read 85, then jumped to 120 in the early nineties, 140 after that and we're seeing 160 on average vehicles now. Yes the speeds are governed but they still do slightly less and the governor can be disabled. The speed limits have not changed so why do we need such powerful vehicles, especially since 99% of the cars on the road will never see a track. IMO, when a vehicle enters an off ramp a sensor should be tripped on the vehicle regulating its maximum speed depending on the speed limit of the given highway.
Instilling such things as above would be asinine.

Why are cars more powerful? Probably because thats what CAR ENTHUSIASTS want. I am a car nut myself, and LOVE the fact that we are getting more power in any car.

The speed limiting a vehicle like listed above when entering an on ramp is nuts. I would find a way to disable such a thing in a heart beat.

The same goes with this "black box". Im sure there will be a way to tune it out of the ECM/PCM or disable it. If there is a will, there is a way...

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Old 04-20-2012   #12
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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Originally Posted by GLN305 View Post
I was reading about this quite a bit in the last few days. It looks like they are trying to work GPS and live data into these ''black boxes''. Not that there is much we can do about it unless we work in masses.
As the recent SOPA saga demonstrated, working in masses doesn't work. It's true, it leveraged the congress to throw out the SOPA bill, but through collusion and backdoor agreements they implemented SOPA anyway... "voluntarily."

This black box is a tool for the insurance companies to increase premiums and reduce payouts. The government can couch it in terms of "safety", but no, it's about money.
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Old 04-20-2012   #13
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Quote:
Originally Posted by duro78 View Post
If the government was so concerned about safety why are they allowing car manufacturers to build faster more powerful vehicles. The HP rating on the average family sedan has more than doubled in recent years. Buying a car with 300 isn't a big deal anymore. Most cars on the road can accelerate from 0-60 in under 6 seconds. In the 80's odometers read 85, then jumped to 120 in the early nineties, 140 after that and we're seeing 160 on average vehicles now. Yes the speeds are governed but they still do slightly less and the governor can be disabled. The speed limits have not changed so why do we need such powerful vehicles, especially since 99% of the cars on the road will never see a track. IMO, when a vehicle enters an off ramp a sensor should be tripped on the vehicle regulating its maximum speed depending on the speed limit of the given highway. To alleviate the huge dui problem install blow machines in all vehicles. Statistics prove speeding and driving under the influence are responsible for most accidents. Can it be the the government wants faster cars on the roads because they produce a lot more revenue.

IMO if the government was so concerned about safety some of these issues would be addressed. Of course the revenue created by speeding tickets and dui's is way too great to turn our backs on. Ill admit I get speeding tickets quite often and I can't remember the last time I went to court and they didn't reduce the charge for a lesser one. They weren't concerned about me accruing points to get my license suspended but the attitude is more like we better keep this guy on the streets he's a good money maker. A couple months ago I went to court in a very small town EVERYONE was charged with parking on pavement instead of speeding and I estimated the court made over $75k that night. Since the economy took a turn for the worse years ago most cops don't have they're 10mph lee way zone anymore. So ill now get a ticket driving less than 10 over the limit.

Anyway the point of my post was to show if the government was so concerned about saving lives more proactive steps would be made. Things are only OK when the government can get they're cut. For example alcohol and gambling. If there's money to be made that takes priority over all else even human life.

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I'm not sure what your point is but I surely hope you do not think cars should be governed as you said. Right now top speed is governed by the tires the car came with from the factory. Speedo means nothing. My car still has an 85mph speedo, was governed to 124mph from the factory and with the governor lifted did 158mph stock. Many cars with 85mph speedos had no problem wrapping it all the way around.

You admit to getting lots of speeding tickets and you think the government should limit top speed instead of exercising a little self control? I have a quick car that does over 130mph in 10 seconds with a top speed in excess of 170mph that I've owned since I was 17 and I've never gotten a speeding ticket in my life, in 19yrs of driving. I want the option to speed if there's an emergency or if there's a fun backroad that's safe to speed on. I don't want that taken away from me by the government because some people can't control themselves. They need to focus on the speeders, not the other people.

DUIs, there should be a zero tolerance policy but why punish the majority of the population by having to blow into a breathalizer to drive their personal vehicles just because a few break the law?

As for the black boxes, we've been able to look at a brief snapshot in time for years if a wreck occurs but never the kind of data and to the extent that they're proposing now and never in real time transmission. I hate that Progressive insurance commercial where they say they will lower your rates if you install a tattle tale on your car. I would rather pay a higher rate. I think all of this is dead wrong. It doesn't matter what their intentions are now or what they say the monitoring is for, over time they will be issuing speeding tickets and who know what else every time your car goes over the speed limit for a few seconds. They will know where you're at, what your habits are, and Freedom First is right, it will be very hard to defeat and still have the car drivable. There are many ways to make "covering it with sheet metal" not only illegal but disabling the car if it's not getting signal.

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Old 04-20-2012   #14
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Originally Posted by rodneypierce View Post
Instilling such things as above would be asinine.

Why are cars more powerful? Probably because thats what CAR ENTHUSIASTS want. I am a car nut myself, and LOVE the fact that we are getting more power in any car.

The speed limiting a vehicle like listed above when entering an on ramp is nuts. I would find a way to disable such a thing in a heart beat.

The same goes with this "black box". Im sure there will be a way to tune it out of the ECM/PCM or disable it. If there is a will, there is a way...
I completely agree with you as Im an enthusiast also but my point was if the government was so interested in saftey more things like that would be in place. In theory according to the laws that are in place under what circumstances is over 300 HP necessary. The highest speed limit of any highway is 75 and hard acceleration can be ticketed as an unsafe start. Like I said I'm an enthusiasts also and love tuning my vehicles but if the government was really concerned about safety IMO the government could easily decrease accident by being more proactive in controlling it. Would I like it no but the end result would be less deaths due to speeding and driving under the influence. If these tickets didn't produce such a substantial amount of money it would of been done a longtime ago.

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Old 04-20-2012   #15
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I'm incomplete agreement but other than having a viable revenue stream from installing a black box the government would have zero interest in it other than monitoring activity of course

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Old 04-20-2012   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
I'm not sure what your point is but I surely hope you do not think cars should be governed as you said. Right now top speed is governed by the tires the car came with from the factory. Speedo means nothing. My car still has an 85mph speedo, was governed to 124mph from the factory and with the governor lifted did 158mph stock. Many cars with 85mph speedos had no problem wrapping it all the way around.

You admit to getting lots of speeding tickets and you think the government should limit top speed instead of exercising a little self control? I have a quick car that does over 130mph in 10 seconds with a top speed in excess of 170mph that I've owned since I was 17 and I've never gotten a speeding ticket in my life, in 19yrs of driving. I want the option to speed if there's an emergency or if there's a fun backroad that's safe to speed on. I don't want that taken away from me by the government because some people can't control themselves. They need to focus on the speeders, not the other people.

DUIs, there should be a zero tolerance policy but why punish the majority of the population by having to blow into a breathalizer to drive their personal vehicles just because a few break the law?

As for the black boxes, we've been able to look at a brief snapshot in time for years if a wreck occurs but never the kind of data and to the extent that they're proposing now and never in real time transmission. I hate that Progressive insurance commercial where they say they will lower your rates if you install a tattle tale on your car. I would rather pay a higher rate. I think all of this is dead wrong. It doesn't matter what their intentions are now or what they say the monitoring is for, over time they will be issuing speeding tickets and who know what else every time your car goes over the speed limit for a few seconds. They will know where you're at, what your habits are, and Freedom First is right, it will be very hard to defeat and still have the car drivable. There are many ways to make "covering it with sheet metal" not only illegal but disabling the car if it's not getting signal.
I was in no way suggesting it should be done or complaining about getting tickets that's on me. Theres no argument that cars have been steadily getting more powerful and capable of higher speeds. VERYONE speeds whether its 2 over or 50 its on the discretion of the officer to ticket the offender. We all do it everytime we drive not only on back roads and when theres no one on the road. My point was if the government was so concerned about safety they would be more proactive in regulating it but they won't because of the revenue it produces. I just made examples I wasn't proposing it should be done because I'm a car enthusiast also.

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Old 04-20-2012   #17
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

@duro78, 10-4 brother.

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Old 04-20-2012   #18
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Build a Faraday cage around the device.

Done.
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Old 04-20-2012   #19
 
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Quote:
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Build a Faraday cage around the device.

Done.
LOL, leave it to Chad!!

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Old 04-20-2012   #20
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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The highest speed limit of any highway is 75 and hard acceleration can be ticketed as an unsafe start.
What happens to the cars when that limit changes (like it did a few short years ago when Montana lifted speed limits on all state roads)? What about when you take your car to other countries with more liberal speed laws?

Regarding acceleration, you only get ticketed when it's not warranted. There are situations where acceleration can be used to AVOID accidents.
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What happens to the cars when that limit changes (like it did a few short years ago when Montana lifted speed limits on all state roads)? What about when you take your car to other countries with more liberal speed laws?

Regarding acceleration, you only get ticketed when it's not warranted. There are situations where acceleration can be used to AVOID accidents.
If the speed limits are raised what is it 5 mph maybe 10 at the absolute most. The mph wasnt my point whether the fastest speed limit on any given u.s highway is 75 or 85 why in theory are vehicles beig manufactered yhat can do double the legal limit, for what. Actually damn near every production car can break 110. Before you say lol some people like to got the track. How many production cars ever see a track less than 1%. How often does a person transport their vehicle to another country? Cars are built for they're purposed market (country) with different emission guide lines. Exactly why its so difficult to import cars made for the Japanese market. Like I said I wouldn't agree with it but bottom line it would save lives. In regards to the acceleration comment why are performance cars highest on list of wrecked cars and the rates so much higher if they're safe. I agree with you acceleration can help in certain situations but the need to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds as a precautionary measure IMO really isn't necessary. If high performance cars are so superior in handling, acceleration and top speed why are they the most wrecked? I love a muscle or sports car as much as the next guy I'm just speaking from a safety standpoint.

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Old 04-20-2012   #22
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

Probably because of the driving habits of the type of people who buy performance cars, moreso than the performance cars themselves.

There's no evidence that speed kills, or that reducing speed (across the board) saves lives. When Montana eliminated their speed limits, traffic fatalities actually decreased (although not statistically significant). Most studies that have investigated the impact of speed have shown that uniformity in speed is far more important than reductions in speed.

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent...

Has the market really been moving towards faster? I thought more efficient and/or bigger has been the name of the game in recent years? You had the SUV craze, followed by the revival of the station wagon (which I think still go under the moniker of SUV), and the advent of hybrid vehicles, etc. I really wasn't aware that the market was going in the direction you're talking about.
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Old 04-20-2012   #23
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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Most studies that have investigated the impact of speed have shown that uniformity in speed is far more important than reductions in speed.
For the longest time the speed limit in Illinois for passenger vehicles was 65MPH and for semis 55... That 10 mile per hour delta was torture sometimes.

They bumped it to 65 for trucks now trucks roll 70MPH, which is good and bad because many are governed at 70MPH so Billy Bigrigger doing 70.25MPH decides to pass Bobby Bigrigger doing 70MPH and pisses everyone off for miles.

You can't fucking win.

Now for speeding. I'm pretty law abiding, I normally roll 5 over.. BUT. It's gets damn windy here, especially N-S wind directions. I travel an E-W road every day. If it's ungodly windy and I'm passing an empty bigtruck that's all over the road.... you can bet your sweeet ass I'm doing it in a hurry.
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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my point was if the government was so interested in saftey more things like that would be in place.
Where does the .gov get the power to legislate any laws concerning safety?

Adaptive Traction Control isn't mandatory but it is on the market as an option. It has been proven to lower the chance of a rollover accident. BMW added it as a standard feature and their rollovers dropped dramatically. When my wife and I were looking for her new daily driver, that was a requirement.

If the market wants more safety features (traction control, air bags, seat belts, etc) then they will create a market for them. Manufacturers will respond based on the will of the market.
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Default Re: Anbody seen THIS??!? Your own personal BLACK BOX...

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lol, no human rights and idiots can still carry guns, great work
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