global warming

[dogstar]

Climate is changing, do I think it is the product of humans? Maybe.

But what happened during all those other ice ages/thaws that scientists figure came before?
We weren't around to cause them, but something did.

[Rudeboy]

Originally Posted by dsg74

In the 70s we were heading for an Ice Age, less then 20 years later they began this global warming thing. In the last couple years studies have shown that parts of the polar ice caps are increasing in size, record levels in fact. Before that they were melting, and probably still are in spots. Truth is nobody really knows what is happening.

There have been tremendous advances in the science over the last 20 years. Improved understanding over time should be expected and embraced. It wasn't all that long ago that it was accepted as fact that the oceans could take as much sewage as we could produce without negative consequences.

The polar ice caps are not increasing in size unless you do what the people promoting that idea did - take two data points out of context. The area covered in ice was larger in 2008 than it was in 2007 but both years had less ice coverage than the 20 year average. Only area increased in 2008, total mass probably didn't. We know what will happen if enough ice melts. Taking comfort in a one year anomaly is like deciding that smoking cigarettes is safe because grandpa smoked a pack a day and lived to be 85.

There's no doubt that politics has played a big part in public understanding of this topic. We should be asking ourselves why those with a financial stake in denying the problem have invested so much money in propagating ideas like the growing ice cap canard instead of making their case with real science.

Originally Posted by dsg74

"Global Warming" is now called "Climate Change". We are either heading for an ice age or away from one. Man can maybe slow it down or speed it up a little, but we sure can't stop it.

There's no doubt that climate change has been going on as long as there has been a climate. Except for catastrophic events like massive volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes, these changes have been gradual. The problem isn't that "Man can maybe slow it down or speed it up a little", but that we are speeding it up a lot. Slowing it down will be much harder.

Originally Posted by bass_lover1

Meh, it's a load of crap.

You know what's funny, the top 5 warmest years on record are prior to 1950 and the most recent on the top 10 list is from 1998. This is the coldest winter we've had in Florida for probably 10 years. They actually forecasted snow about two weeks ago! It hasn't snowed here in like 20 years.

IMO "global warming" is fear mongering the uneducated into baaaaaing like sheep and following along.

I'm sure you understand that unusually cold local weather is just as likely to be a consequence of global warming as unusually warm weather, more frequent and more intense storms, etc. More heat = more energy = more than just balmy days in February. Just thought I'd point this out in case you weren't being ironic.

Originally Posted by dogstar

Climate is changing, do I think it is the product of humans? Maybe.

But what happened during all those other ice ages/thaws that scientists figure came before?
We weren't around to cause them, but something did.

Natural cycles and catastrophes.

[tRidiot]

Originally Posted by jowens500

When I was at CES a couple years ago it was snowing on the strip and they had their first sustained freeze in over 32 years. Does that qualify as global warming?

"Climate Change"

[fej]

Rudeboy normally I agree with you, but I think you are reading one sides BS that is passed off as research, which in reality is only computer modeling based on hypothesis, not a shred of scientific fact.

If you need proof that the "Global Warming" epidemic has been created as nothing more than a scare tactic and business machine, check out this article 22,000 Scientists Disagree With UN Global Warming Push In Pursuit of Happiness, where highly respected and decorated Scientists are attempting to distance themselves from this charade. (The article is pretty slanted, but I can certainly find others that are not with the same core reasoning and facts)

The Climate Change name has been coined because of the increasing ice caps and the cooling trend of the past 10 years that the planet has actually experienced, which points actual scientific fact in direct opposition to the "Global Warming" catch phrase.

This is fear mongering coming from a real piece of work in Al Gore who in his own twisted way, is thinking he is making a difference. Unfortunately most of Washington has little interest or the ability to even comprehend real science, so they jump in like sheep to follow the "green savior". Which is what Gore and his people are hoping the general public will do.

IMO no one, and no amount of science can truly predict what changes or stage the planet is in, we can only use what information we can gather from research into the past, which no one was here for, and no written history documents, to hypothesize what MAY happen in the future.

I do worry about the sustainability of the path we are on as a planet, and believe me the US is the greenest civilization on the planet compared to any other nation of near equal or larger size, and it is not close.

Part of me also wonders if we as a world actually have the ability to influence what happens to the planet, or we are just another small era of the billions of years and thousands of eras that the planet has already experienced, with little "real" impact.

[msmith]

The fact that it's cold outside in any given place or that there are temporary cold snaps does not disprove the fact that AVERAGE TEMPERATURES ARE RISING AT AN UNUSUAL RATE.

[chad]

One may note on the weather that many if not most of the record high temps were established in the late 1800's and the early 1900's. Some also forget that the SUN (you know that big whiteish/yellow thing in the sky that provides our radiant heat) is also VERY dynamic and at times puts out more heat than at other times.

[Mooble]

Here is the interesting thing. You realize that BOTH are entirely possible and there is no contradiction.

We most likely have been warming up the planet through our actions. This cannot be conclusively proven to be wholly our fault, but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence.

We are also due for an ice age based on past cycles, although the evidence to show that this is happening right now is sketchy (a couple of growing glaciers do not offset the entire lack of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean. Glaciers are much more dependent on PRECIPITATION, not temperature. Big deal. So it snowed more on Mt Ranier. That doesn't mean it wasn't warmer)

Anyway, as I said both are entirely plausible. We have been warming up the planet which may offset the impending ice age by some degree. Ironically, heating up the planet may benefit humanity. We are responsible for one, the other is a product of an imperfect orbit of our planet and variations in solar output.

Before you make fun of scientists, realize that there is no contradiction in both an ice age and global warming. The ice age just won't be as severe this time since we've been heating the place up with greenhouse gases.

[chad]

I'm not trying to elude the fact that we are changing the environment, I think that's painfully obvious. I'm saying that things have trends and cycles and that these trends and cycles CANNOT dictate the amount of damage that mankind has done due to the fact that there IS NOT a constant in the level of heat output.

[saMxp]

Sure, some of the science used to extract trapped gases in glaciers and polar icecaps and determine temperature trends over tens of thousands of years does leave room for error. But the measurement of CO2 gases over the past half a century is pretty reliable and the rate of increase is pretty astounding. Nature has trapped all of this carbon in various stores and we're releasing it into the atmosphere at an alarming rate.
Is it possible that these astounding CO2 levels are completely insignificant when overlaid upon the earth's natural cooling/warming cycles? Sure, I suppose. It'd pretty much impossible to definitely say one way, or another.
But we all know that the absence of proof is not the proof of absence. I'm not saying we should start implementing drastic legislation such as "Carbon Taxes" (which are so ludicrously prone to corruption I don't even want to think of it), but it is definitely time to start thinking about how we can reduce Carbon emissions to slow this alarming trend.

And, as said before, if for no other reason - sustainability is a huge enough reason. Unless you seriously don't have a single concern for future generations, we need to think about what we're going to do when oil runs out. Because that fact is undeniable. It may not be in our generation or the next, but it will happen.

[Dr.Telepathy SQ]

Originally Posted by Calum

... To every other country I've been to this isn't a debate. It's not contested, or argued about. It's a foregone conclusion. I'm still shocked that people in the US don't 'believe' this yet.

Because it's America!!

Honestly, our so called "freedom" has maybe caused more harm than good. We're very narrow-minded,can often only see past what impacts me and me only. We believe everything should come down to political line and we hide behind our "college education, occupations, material gains" to justify ourselves as "educated". It's all about race,class,and gender. We have a serious social class structure and few dare to think outside of the box. It's nothing more than fear. There is not a middle ground here. If you think anything outside of the box, than you're labled "liberal" and that means you're willing to accept anything and everything in their eyes.
We would rather argue with each other than help anyone else. We love to have limited knowledge about certain subject matter, but yet quick to offer an opinion about everything.

I'm older and I'm often sadden by some of the narrow-minded comments given here by the younger generation. Sometimes I'll read something very stimulating posted by a few members , but other times not so.

[chad]

Originally Posted by Calum

... To every other country I've been to this isn't a debate. It's not contested, or argued about. It's a foregone conclusion. I'm still shocked that people in the US don't 'believe' this yet.

Originally Posted by Dr.Telepathy SQ

Because it's America!!

Honestly, our so called "freedom" has maybe caused more harm than good. We're very narrow-minded,can often only see past what impacts me and me only. We believe everything should come down to political line and we hide behind our "college education, occupations, material gains" to justify ourselves as "educated".

Really? Every other country? Greed drives us to produce much of our goods overseas where it's cheaper and there is not as many environmental limitations. What are overcrowded smog belching cities doing overseas to prevent the issue that we are"arguing about" here. Dunno what "every other country" was but I can tell you that there are just as many if not more who simply don't give a shit, and we are not one of them, they don't care enough to even argue

[Dr.Telepathy SQ]

Originally Posted by chad

Really? Every other country? Greed drives us to produce much of our goods overseas where it's cheaper and there is not as many environmental limitations. What are overcrowded smog belching cities doing overseas to prevent the issue that we are"arguing about" here. Dunno what "every other country" was but I can tell you that there are just as many if not more who simply don't give a shit, and we are not one of them, they don't care enough to even argue

Preach the good word Chad.............


Greed,Greed,more Greed.

Example, I'm so tired of going to the store and I can't even buy apples from Washington State, has a damn sticker saying "proudly picked from ______...insert your favorite exporting nation.

I'm dead set on the fact that Wal-Mart is evil

But this is about global warming though...back on topic. It all doesn't matter as long as I can get the newest Blue Ray player for $100

[saMxp]

Originally Posted by fej

If you need proof that the "Global Warming" epidemic has been created as nothing more than a scare tactic and business machine, check out this article 22,000 Scientists Disagree With UN Global Warming Push In Pursuit of Happiness, where highly respected and decorated Scientists are attempting to distance themselves from this charade.

I can understand wanting to distance ones self from political motivation. But there are some pretty sketchy conclusions being drawn in this document. For example, they make the point:

The US temperature trend is so slight that, were the temperature change which has taken place during the 20th and 21st centuries to occur in an ordinary room, most of the people in the room would be unaware of it.

So most humans are incapable of detecting changes as small as 1deg C. This means what?

[tRidiot]

+ YouTube Video

[chad]

Originally Posted by Dr.Telepathy SQ

But this is about global warming though...back on topic. It all doesn't matter as long as I can get the newest Blue Ray player for $100

E--Fekin Zachary! Because we have this concept that we are having "America warming" and not global warming and that somehow our asses can single handedly change it when in fact IF we are truly dealing with global warming and IF it is indeed caused by mankind then we CERTAINLY need to turn our attention to the schmucks we hire to make our stuff. Our efforts alone won't do a damn thing, the world is 70 something percent water and you think that the polluted water in Asia does not make it here you are fekin insane and think the world is flat and the other countries are simply a figment of your imagination. Until it's seen as a global situation NOBODY really has room to talk, be it us or the EU countries that are actually AHEAD of us in the elimination of contamination.

Wanna know why Yamaha grands often have a deeper finish than a Steinway? Because the polymers they use there to paint them is ILLEGAL here!

[jtroy]

Originally Posted by bass_lover1

Meh, it's a load of crap.

You know what's funny, the top 5 warmest years on record are prior to 1950 and the most recent on the top 10 list is from 1998. This is the coldest winter we've had in Florida for probably 10 years. They actually forecasted snow about two weeks ago! It hasn't snowed here in like 20 years.

IMO "global warming" is fear mongering the uneducated into baaaaaing like sheep and following along.

Just by bringing this up shows you truly dont understand how the earths atmosphere works even on a basic level.

The earth takes in heat at the equator and its transported via the oceans to the poles

[chad]

Originally Posted by jtroy

Just by bringing this up shows you truly dont understand how the earths atmosphere works even on a basic level.

The earth takes in heat at the equator and its transported via the oceans to the poles

Mother of god I hope you are joking because if not......

[saMxp]

Originally Posted by chad

E--Fekin Zachary! Because we have this concept that we are having "America warming" and not global warming and that somehow our asses can single handedly change it when in fact IF we are truly dealing with global warming and IF it is indeed caused by mankind then we CERTAINLY need to turn our attention to the schmucks we hire to make our stuff. Our efforts alone won't do a damn thing, the world is 70 something percent water and you think that the polluted water in Asia does not make it here you are fekin insane and think the world is flat and the other countries are simply a figment of your imagination. Until it's seen as a global situation NOBODY really has room to talk, be it us or the EU countries that are actually AHEAD of us in the elimination of contamination.

Wanna know why Yamaha grands often have a deeper finish than a Steinway? Because the polymers they use there to paint them is ILLEGAL here!

You're not supposed to point this out! We like to be blissfully ignorant of the full cost of our standard of living. It is un-American to have this level of responsibility. Let's keep things simple. I feed my addiction for the latest gadgetry on the cheap from China, and I still get to pretend I'm being eco-friendly!

[Mooble]

Since when did anecdotal evidence start trumping empirical data? I'm also really quite surprised by the views displayed here. I know the younger generation is supposed to be pretty conservative, but this is an eye opener for sure.

Do you all believe that the Earth is too big for humans to affect? Is that it or do you just not think we are responsible for THIS change? Do you also believe that fossil fuels will never run out? Do you think we will keep finding more and more oil or is the oil bubble just a myth to sell hybrids?

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by fej

IMO no one, and no amount of science can truly predict what changes or stage the planet is in, we can only use what information we can gather from research into the past, which no one was here for, and no written history documents, to hypothesize what MAY happen in the future.

Err...that's not true at all. Just because we don't understand precisely how something works right now doesn't mean we never will. If you can understand the mechanism behind such things, then you can predict the future (coupled with the amount of uncertainty, ie. noise, that naturally goes along with any system). This is the essence of the laws of physics.

Of course, it doesn't appear we're anywhere near a mechanistic understanding of the planet, but you never know what insights might emerge in the near future..

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by saMxp

And, as said before, if for no other reason - sustainability is a huge enough reason. Unless you seriously don't have a single concern for future generations, we need to think about what we're going to do when oil runs out. Because that fact is undeniable. It may not be in our generation or the next, but it will happen.

Who's to say that those future generations would depend on combustion anyway? It may be in the natural order of things for people to want to buy stuff that's small and efficient. Or for factories and such to have to use smaller footprints and cheaper maintenance.

In the Jetsons, everything was nuclear wasn't it?

I want the car suitcase by the way.

[saMxp]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Who's to say that those future generations would depend on combustion anyway? It may be in the natural order of things for people to want to buy stuff that's small and efficient. Or for factories and such to have to use smaller footprints and cheaper maintenance.

In the Jetsons, everything was nuclear wasn't it?

I want the car suitcase by the way.

Sure, it's possible that they will sustain fusion reactors and feed the grid with such an abundance of power that its not worth even pumping oil out of the ground. But do we really just continue at our rate of consumption, and assume we'll eventually find a better way?

[Mooble]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Who's to say that those future generations would depend on combustion anyway? It may be in the natural order of things for people to want to buy stuff that's small and efficient. Or for factories and such to have to use smaller footprints and cheaper maintenance.

In the Jetsons, everything was nuclear wasn't it?

I want the car suitcase by the way.

Gasoline is the largest use of oil, but a huge portion of it goes into plastics and fertilizers. Long before oil runs out, it will be far too expensive to use for powering combustion engines so that's really irrelevant. We will run out of it whether we stop using combustion engines tomorrow or not, it would just take longer.

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by saMxp

Sure, it's possible that they will sustain fusion reactors and feed the grid with such an abundance of power that its not worth even pumping oil out of the ground. But do we really just continue at our rate of consumption, and assume we'll eventually find a better way?

To a certain extent, I think you have to make some hard assumptions. Sure, you don't want to completely take a "cross that bridge when we come to it" approach, but at the same time you don't want to spend so many resources on something that is likely to never be an issue.

Whatever happened to the plans of using deep sea temperature gradients as an energy source anyways? I read about that 5 years or so ago and haven't heard much recently.

[saMxp]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

To a certain extent, I think you have to make some hard assumptions. Sure, you don't want to completely take a "cross that bridge when we come to it" approach, but at the same time you don't want to spend so many resources on something that is likely to never be an issue.

Whatever happened to the plans of using deep sea temperature gradients as an energy source anyways? I read about that 5 years or so ago and haven't heard much recently.

Agreed. That's the strongest criticsm of political Global Warming pundits that want to impose severe legislation for an issue that may turn out to not be an issue at all. But there are things we can do, and if we put our heads in the sand and ignore the potential problem, then our grandchildren will have a heck of a lot harder time dealing with them than we.
There are a lot of great ideas for alternative energy. Shoot, nuclear would solve most of our problems if the government kindly removed their skulls from their nether regions. And there are even more reasons to pursue these means than sustainability. Foreign dependence, and the 300,000,000,000.00 USD streaming overseas are reason enough!