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Old 06-16-2011   #226
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

So one vote for RAAM. What about this Fat Mat Mega Mat stuff? Has anyone heard of that?
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Old 06-16-2011   #227
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

LOL, old thread is old.

These days it seems that CCF and Mass Loaded Vynal are very affordable. Probably NOT optimum for SPL Build but for eliminating road noise and dampening it seems very cost effective.

Also update. I picked up some SPL tiles in trade (would have been expensive to buy) and many of them have failed/fell off. Didn't have that issue with HD products :P
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Old 06-16-2011   #228
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Well, like i mentioned my Build is a bit different than what I see most people driving here. LOTS of surface area.










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Old 06-17-2011   #229
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

^^^^^
CCF and mass loaded vynal would by far be your best solution IMO. You could possibly get even more creative. With that much area you'd be into it for 500 pounds and >1000$ to use conventional deadening...I'd hazzard a guess that you'd be over 400$ even with home depot substitutes.
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Old 06-17-2011   #230
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYMA View Post
Please show me how I am wrong.
I am here to learn. Just like many others.
Show me how I am wrong, and I will change my position. I am flexible and will admit when I am wrong.

Last I checked though, when ice is heated to 33 degrees, it melts.
When water is cooled to 32 degrees, it freezes.

Show me differently and I will remove myself from this conversation.
ANT
Sorry but I have to being this old post back up for relevance,

Water only boils at 100C and freezes at 0C at sea level. Waters freezing and boiling points are entirely dependent on atmospheric pressure. If you don't believe me use a pressure cooker. You couldn't get water past a 100C at sea level no matter how much heat you apply it would steam, but if you enclose it in a pressure cooker the temperature and pressure rise and are directly related. Please see the link below :

Water properties: Water Science for Schools: Physical and chemical water properties

The point here isn't to prove the mod wrong its just to show you guys there is a lot more going on at the molecular level than we can take into consideration here. All those who installed materials made for home or other industrial uses don't know how the off gassing will affect them or if the gases or by products are corrosive.

Please refer to this site Welcome to Chinesedrywall.com for information on how Chinese drywall building materials were off gassing and corroding houses and making the people living inside them sick. Its not just that it can fall off in the next year or two, the off gassing from some of the chemicals in there might destroy wiring and corrode essential parts of your Car that aren't visible to you.

Is it worth saving 200-300 dollars maximum in your entire project for the possible risk? I personally rather hold off a project then risk it.
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Old 06-17-2011   #231
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clix`g35 View Post
Sorry but I have to being this old post back up for relevance,

Water only boils at 100C and freezes at 0C at sea level. Waters freezing and boiling points are entirely dependent on atmospheric pressure. If you don't believe me use a pressure cooker. You couldn't get water past a 100C at sea level no matter how much heat you apply it would steam, but if you enclose it in a pressure cooker the temperature and pressure rise and are directly related. Please see the link below :

Water properties: Water Science for Schools: Physical and chemical water properties

The point here isn't to prove the mod wrong its just to show you guys there is a lot more going on at the molecular level than we can take into consideration here. All those who installed materials made for home or other industrial uses don't know how the off gassing will affect them or if the gases or by products are corrosive.

Please refer to this site Welcome to Chinesedrywall.com for information on how Chinese drywall building materials were off gassing and corroding houses and making the people living inside them sick. Its not just that it can fall off in the next year or two, the off gassing from some of the chemicals in there might destroy wiring and corrode essential parts of your Car that aren't visible to you.

Is it worth saving 200-300 dollars maximum in your entire project for the possible risk? I personally rather hold off a project then risk it.
Nobody is using drywall or water here. The industry used asphault based deadeners for a decade and I don't recall any reports of corrosion or people getting sick. I defy you to prove that the butyl based home depot products are ANY different "on the molecular level" than what you are paying 5X the money for.

For 300$ I'll take my chances.
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Old 06-17-2011   #232
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

This is great you defy me?

Read this:
Off-Gassing: Modified Bitumen Fumes | Foam Roofing

That nasty smell from the cheap home depot stuff is bitumen which is carcinogenic.

I am just saying we aren't chemistry majors, and we cant tell the molecular make up of something by looking at it or by what some guy did. Nor does that tell us absolutely everything that was going on and involved.

Last edited by clix`g35; 06-17-2011 at 11:14 AM.. Reason: Adding info
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Old 06-17-2011   #233
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWGuy View Post
Well, like i mentioned my Build is a bit different than what I see most people driving here. LOTS of surface area.











Seriously.. You usually don't see them this clean.
I would never EVER suggest putting p&s in any car, let alone one that would require so dmaned much of it to work.

Your best best (money & performance wise) would be to go get yourself 5-10 gallons of Second Skin Spectrum.
You could spreay it on or paint it on with a brush, and you could do every square inch of that cabin.
When done it would be better than $1500 worth of Peal and Seal, and!!! it would not melt, stink, give you cancer or weigh you down so much.

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Old 06-17-2011   #234
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hispls View Post
Nobody is using drywall or water here. The industry used asphault based deadeners for a decade and I don't recall any reports of corrosion or people getting sick. I defy you to prove that the butyl based home depot products are ANY different "on the molecular level" than what you are paying 5X the money for.

For 300$ I'll take my chances.
You don't need to go to the molecular level. Peel off a piece of adhesive from both and play with them. Flashing tape ad vibration damper may both use butyl as a component in their adhesive, but they are formulated to do completely different things. Many of the relevant material properties are going to be very different. Water from the tap and sewer lines are going to be mostly water - doesn't mean one can be substituted for the other.

Beyond that, constrained layer vibration dampers only work because the foil layer offers significant resistance to the adhesive when it is deformed by vibration and returns to stasis. Flashing tape doesn't have to do this. If it has a foil layer at all, it is very thin and is only intended to protect the adhesive from UV.
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Old 06-17-2011   #235
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clix`g35 View Post
The point here isn't to prove the mod wrong its just to show you guys there is a lot more going on at the molecular level than we can take into consideration here.

I agree that things are hapening at a molecular level that we don't understand and for the most part agree with you 100% on other issues you pointed out. The only one I take issue with is using my quote out of context to prove your point. You'll see in a previous reply I already explain that my reasoning was environmentally dependant. Water/ice is the easiest concept for most people to grasp which is why I used it. The paragraph you quoted was me defending my position in as simple of a was as I could. Not writing a thesis that one should draw any conclusions from.

Though water and ice are subtly effected by environment (couple of degrees in each direction at most), when it comes to asphalt we are not trying to main tain a borderline balance. The stuff need to stay solid (frozen) at any temperature you drive in. So regardless if you are int he mountains or the valley, if it hits 180 degrees on your sheet metal, you have bigger things to worry about than your ice cubes, which I think you agree with.

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Old 06-17-2011   #236
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

I like how people find it relavent to argue with the "mod" as they keep calling him over the properties of WATER/ICE when the thread is supposed to be about deadening...

People, get some Raamat (my favorite), Secondskin, etc... and don't waste your time and money. It might be cheaper to buy up front, but when you consider the cost of cleaning your interior or replacing damaged equipment because of asphalt/tar melting onto it.
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Old 06-17-2011   #237
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

ANT,

Its not about the melting point water, or Chinese drywall.

The point is people here were holding an argument and they were sure water behaved absolutely in this manner.

On the other hand you have an entire industry filled with contractors who were sure that the slightly cheaper stuff was the same, I mean its gypsum board its all the same right? NO this stuff has bankrupted several contractors and cost billions in insurance claims, those houses have to be gutted and rebuilt. People got sick there were serious repercussions.

It's not about your argument in specific I was just using your post as a reference, to attempt to point out that there are more things to take into consideration than how sticky and thick the material is, by providing two other examples of similar situations.

Now maybe you(in general terms you, no one in specific) have a shitty beater and don't care if this eventually leads to rust or more money spent on projects, but there are people here who have nice, or collectible vehicles and want to do the right job use the right material and avoid cancer if possible.

None of this was mentioned and no one looked into the off gassing issues or whats inside these materials. The thought occurred to me that we are all going to lock ourselves in these metal boxes with this material and its fumes consistently on a daily basis and while initial off gassing occurred we will spend hours in there tuning. This is something I think we should take into consideration.
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Old 06-17-2011   #238
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWGuy View Post
Well, like i mentioned my Build is a bit different than what I see most people driving here. LOTS of surface area.










I have got to see more of your bus.
I never ever see them that clean inside I have lived that last 40 years between Phoenix and NorCal.
Details and pics please.
How about starting your own install thread log?
Thanks for sharing,
Bret
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"It's amazing how good things sound in print."-Anon
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Old 06-17-2011   #239
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clix`g35 View Post
ANT,

Its not about the melting point water, or Chinese drywall.

The point is people here were holding an argument and they were sure water behaved absolutely in this manner.

On the other hand you have an entire industry filled with contractors who were sure that the slightly cheaper stuff was the same, I mean its gypsum board its all the same right? NO this stuff has bankrupted several contractors and cost billions in insurance claims, those houses have to be gutted and rebuilt. People got sick there were serious repercussions.

It's not about your argument in specific I was just using your post as a reference, to attempt to point out that there are more things to take into consideration than how sticky and thick the material is, by providing two other examples of similar situations.

Now maybe you(in general terms you, no one in specific) have a shitty beater and don't care if this eventually leads to rust or more money spent on projects, but there are people here who have nice, or collectible vehicles and want to do the right job use the right material and avoid cancer if possible.

None of this was mentioned and no one looked into the off gassing issues or whats inside these materials. The thought occurred to me that we are all going to lock ourselves in these metal boxes with this material and its fumes consistently on a daily basis and while initial off gassing occurred we will spend hours in there tuning. This is something I think we should take into consideration.
IMO if you have 20 grand + into a Car and plan to keep it for a while and cheap out of deadener you're an arsehole. I would like to think that people with that kind of project/budget wouldn't even be looking at this thread.

I personally do drive beaters and put a ton of miles on them so they don't last long. From my perspective it changes what makes sense as far as upgrading things that I can't remove.

Can we get a class action suit against dynamat if we owned the suff when it was asphault based? I would maintain that eating at McDonalds once a month would probably give you cancer faster than using rubberized asphault deadener . I'd furter maintain that your cellphone is likely way more of a cancer risk (unless you're a roofer and handling the stuff 40 hours a week). OR the sun, or a hundred other things... In fact if you live long enough these days you're pretty likely to get cancer. If I worked with the stuff 40 hours a week I'd use a respirator, but I think we may be over-exagerating the risk involved in this application. Considering the chemicals are smelly and volitile I'd think that after the smell is gone, the chemicals are gone. If asphault gave off fumes forever why are we not being "gassed" by the roofs of our houses or the streets?
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Old 06-17-2011   #240
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Well the spaces for dampener are the roof, floor, rear tank compartment, rear sides and door, front floor and front kick section. Maybe front doors, though speakers will not be in them, I cannot coat any exposed metal which would be the bulkhead between the front and rear seats, the rear of the cab around the rear window, front seat pedestal and spare tire area. Those are painted and exposed. These images are of another bus, not mine. Mine is a bit older and is in the shop having some metal work done in the rear. The dimensions and condition are same though. I'll post up a thread about the install when it is back in about 2 weeks. I'm just buying what I need now so I can get the entire Build done in 6 days.

This is my bus taken a year ago before the restoration really started.



and this was the last bus I built and sold.


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Old 06-18-2011   #241
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Well, it is official, I returned the unused roll of Peel & Seal after all of the info provided here. My Car is my baby and like mentioned earlier, no point in skimping on correct material during the home stretch of a build. So I have narrowed down my choices to there 3 brands, any feedback on them specifically?

1. audio Technix 60 Mil
2. RAAMmat BTX II 60 Mil
3. Sound Deadener Showdown 80 Mil
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Old 06-19-2011   #242
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPI-ART COLLECTOR View Post
I have got to see more of your bus.
I never ever see them that clean inside I have lived that last 40 years between Phoenix and NorCal.
Details and pics please.
How about starting your own install thread log?
Thanks for sharing,
Bret
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Did you Media blast your bus? I did one 25yrs ago and I couldn't believe the good steel in it! By the way, I did my Vette and my 1993 Flairside in Raam Mat and Ensolite BXT. It is the lightest material that I could find, it sticks well and stays there, no fumes, and has very noticeably quieted my very loud vehicles. The Vette has Headers w/performance exhaust and the Ford has Flow masters.
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Old 06-19-2011   #243
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Soda Blasted it. It is a very solid and dry bus. Bad spots were the front floor (pin holes) and the rear sides over the wheel wells. (bad welding from the 80's warped them). I have seen both good and bad. The blue bus you see in the pictures below had a floor patched with fiberglass. Pretty sucky to discover that. Other patches were made OVER the rot instead of replacing the bad sections.

I read about Mass Loaded Vinyl and am pretty confused about it still. I understand the concept of using it, but it seems like it is rigid. If that is the case, it would be a complete pain to cut into strips to install on the corrugated floor of the bus
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Old 06-19-2011   #244
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VWGuy View Post
Soda Blasted it. It is a very solid and dry bus. Bad spots were the front floor (pin holes) and the rear sides over the wheel wells. (bad welding from the 80's warped them). I have seen both good and bad. The blue bus you see in the pictures below had a floor patched with fiberglass. Pretty sucky to discover that. Other patches were made OVER the rot instead of replacing the bad sections.

I read about Mass Loaded Vinyl and am pretty confused about it still. I understand the concept of using it, but it seems like it is rigid. If that is the case, it would be a complete pain to cut into strips to install on the corrugated floor of the bus
In the trunk of my Corvette convertible, it is corrugated to some degree. We cut the tin foiled portion into strips with a utility knife and added foam over and over until we built up the the dampening level with the corrugation/floor and covered it level with the tinfoil RAAM MAt then the foam. Man what a difference in the sound and it is not heavy in weight like the other brands. The VWs don't need a lot of weight due to HP and the suspension. A little extra weight can make a major difference in performance. (Lack of performance)
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Old 06-19-2011   #245
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hispls View Post
IMO if you have 20 grand + into a Car and plan to keep it for a while and cheap out of deadener you're an arsehole. I would like to think that people with that kind of project/budget wouldn't even be looking at this thread.

I personally do drive beaters and put a ton of miles on them so they don't last long. From my perspective it changes what makes sense as far as upgrading things that I can't remove.

Can we get a class action suit against dynamat if we owned the suff when it was asphault based? I would maintain that eating at McDonalds once a month would probably give you cancer faster than using rubberized asphault deadener . I'd furter maintain that your cellphone is likely way more of a cancer risk (unless you're a roofer and handling the stuff 40 hours a week). OR the sun, or a hundred other things... In fact if you live long enough these days you're pretty likely to get cancer. If I worked with the stuff 40 hours a week I'd use a respirator, but I think we may be over-exagerating the risk involved in this application. Considering the chemicals are smelly and volitile I'd think that after the smell is gone, the chemicals are gone. If asphault gave off fumes forever why are we not being "gassed" by the roofs of our houses or the streets?
Good point Jon

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Old 06-24-2011   #246
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Please forgive me if this has been covered but...

I have used Home Depot pond liner, 2 layers with adhesive with good results.

Any feedback?
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Old 06-29-2011   #247
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hispls View Post
IMO if you have 20 grand + into a Car and plan to keep it for a while and cheap out of deadener you're an arsehole. I would like to think that people with that kind of project/budget wouldn't even be looking at this thread.

I personally do drive beaters and put a ton of miles on them so they don't last long. From my perspective it changes what makes sense as far as upgrading things that I can't remove.

Can we get a class action suit against dynamat if we owned the suff when it was asphault based? I would maintain that eating at McDonalds once a month would probably give you cancer faster than using rubberized asphault deadener . I'd furter maintain that your cellphone is likely way more of a cancer risk (unless you're a roofer and handling the stuff 40 hours a week). OR the sun, or a hundred other things... In fact if you live long enough these days you're pretty likely to get cancer. If I worked with the stuff 40 hours a week I'd use a respirator, but I think we may be over-exagerating the risk involved in this application. Considering the chemicals are smelly and volitile I'd think that after the smell is gone, the chemicals are gone. If asphault gave off fumes forever why are we not being "gassed" by the roofs of our houses or the streets?
Off gassing doesn't last indefinitely and I never said that. When it off gasses outdoor on your roof it gets defused enough in the atmosphere not to matter, and this is NOT my opinion I posted a link to research showing that Bitumen a chemical in these products is what generates that smell and is cancerous.

Apart from that the smell is NOT something that is ever mentioned when buying the more expensive purpose built deadeners such as Dynamat nor have I ever smelled that, leading me to believe this product might be chemically different, and isn't that the point of this thread? To compare the good stuff to the peal and stick and HD stuff?

1. Purpose Built doesn't off gas same way and might not contain bitumen
2. Purpose built seems to stick better and last longer
3. How does the off gassing change the material?

Can we get a Vender to chime in here with some info?
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Old 07-07-2011   #248
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

I've talked one friend out of doing P&S. Sadly, he just decided to not deal with his audio at all right now. He doesn't want to do research for his needs, he just wants to drive his vw already. Can't fault that I guess. Is far as pond liner goes, I can't imagine that serving any sort of purpose other than making your Car heavy. How would it adhere to the metal?
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Old 07-07-2011   #249
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

does anyone use Herculiner do it yourself or Rino liner? or use rubber flooring 1/8 thick mat that you cut out?and use 3M spray glue?
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Old 07-07-2011   #250
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Buy the real stuff and save yourself some headaches
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