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Old 08-30-2008   #26
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

for those that havn't had any issues with peel n seal and similar products is your vehicle a lighter color by any chance?

my truck is black and it gets pretty hot in centeral arkansas but no raammat failure yet.

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Old 08-30-2008   #27
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ View Post
for those that havn't had any issues with peel n seal and similar products is your vehicle a lighter color by any chance?

my truck is black and it gets pretty hot in centeral arkansas but no raammat failure yet.
That's a good point, but it isn't the entire explanation. All of these asphalt products will melt ~ 180°F - 190°F when new. My light silver car can get to 160°F when parked in the sun for a few hours on a 95°F day here in Maryland. A dark car will add something close to 20° under the same circumstances. That's getting perilously close to disaster and explains many of the short term failures.

What complicates things is that the "rubberized compounds" added to the asphalt to increase heat resistance deteriorate over time and exposure to temps significantly lower than that initial 180°F - 190°F heat tolerance. As the rubber deteriorates, the heat tolerance decreases. This is why the most common failure time frame is 2 - 3 summers out. Once the melt temperature falls to 140° or so, it is pretty hard to avoid. Many people tout the use of a heat gun as part of "proper" installation technique for asphalt. It may be necessary to promote short term adhesion, but the heat actually accelerates the deterioration of the rubber stabilizers.

Interestingly, extreme heat - just below melting, say 160°F or so, for an extended period of time can actually render the asphalt permanently stable by driving out all of the VOC's, leaving the material inert and brittle. This makes it an even less effective vibration damper than it was in its flexible state, but it accounts for most of the cases of long term success, but it is really the luck of the draw.

None of this matters. Even if asphalt were 100% reliable, it would still be a poor choice because it is no more effective per dollar spent than butyl. Since it requires more labor to compensate for its poor performance an difficult installation characteristics, it is an even poorer value. When you consider that is is no where close to reliable, it quickly becomes apparent that it is a terrible choice.

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Old 08-30-2008   #28
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Have any of you tried or heard of Mcmaster Carr? http://www.mcmaster.com/
They carry a huge variety of industrial products. I used some of their Dynamat-like product and also closed-cell foam (I think it was around 1" thick) a few years ago with good results. The thing I like about their catalog is it lists the NRC (noise reduction coefficient) for each product and technical info on each product's composition. Go to "acoustical insulation" and "acoustical and vibration damping insulation" to see some of these products.
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Old 08-30-2008   #29
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

using peal and seal is like masturbating it sounds good at the time but your really only fucking yourself in the end.
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Old 08-30-2008   #30
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Rudeboy is 100% on it.

I use Scosche Accumat AMT060. Butyl and foil. Can't tell it apart from Dynamat Extreme. If anything it may stick better, if that is possible. And I get it for dealer cost.
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Old 08-30-2008   #31
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Fwiw, I used rammatt 2 summers ago in my doors....about 60 sq ft. Pulled one of the mids out to fix a lose wire about a month ago. Looked just like the day I installed it. My car is red and this summer hasn't been bad here in the north but last summer was bad. Again this is only my experience and yours may vary.

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Old 08-30-2008   #32
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

cofair seems to be planning a sound dampening product offering very soon

from web page

Sound Control
Sound Saver™ Products
Sound Saver Sink Silencer™

Coming Soon


Sound Saver Pipe Silencer™

Sound Saver for Home Acoustics
Sound Saver for Auto Sound Systems
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Old 08-30-2008   #33
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seagrasser View Post
cofair seems to be planning a sound dampening product offering very soon

from web page

Sound Control
Sound Saver™ Products
Sound Saver Sink Silencer™

Coming Soon


Sound Saver Pipe Silencer™

Sound Saver for Home Acoustics
Sound Saver for Auto Sound Systems
That's actually been there for a few years (the Coming Soon stuff). It's an odd operation. They list MFM Peel & Seal, use the MFM graphics, include the TM, but never mention MFM. Confusing. I guess the MSDS page shows the products they manufacture or distribute under their own name.

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Old 08-30-2008   #34
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

What about the rubber stuff?

http://www.cofair.com/rubberroof.aspx

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Old 08-30-2008   #35
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buchaja View Post
What about the rubber stuff?

http://www.cofair.com/rubberroof.aspx
Take a look at the MSDS - rubber surfaced asphalt.

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Old 08-30-2008   #36
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

I would totally try this if it doesn't smell too bad.
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Old 08-30-2008   #37
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Dont do asphalt. Nuff said. Go butyl. Don't let that shit melt all over your car.
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Old 08-30-2008   #38
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spliflover View Post
using peal and seal is like masturbating it sounds good at the time but your really only fucking yourself in the end.
Masturbating is a means to an end.

Asphalt products do not deliver the desired end result.....only a gooey mess.

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Old 08-30-2008   #39
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Well, I just did my passenger side front door this afternoon and probably applied somewhere around 20 sq ft of raammat. Will be doing the same tomorrow on the driver side. Glad to hear some others chime in to help defend raammat, as I was pretty certain I had only read that it was pure butyl product.
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Old 08-30-2008   #40
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buchaja View Post
What about the rubber stuff?

http://www.cofair.com/rubberroof.aspx
Yes, that's the stuff I originally started the thread about.

Funny how in the days that ALL the sound deadener was pure asphalt (and stinky) people still hated on you if you got roofing/flashing tape at home depot.

I use a few layers of the all butyl "protectowrap" (also Home Depot) in my trunk and it cut down my rattle/flex considerably, I'm currently running 4KW into a pair of TC-2000's, so it certainly. I expect decent results form this stuff, but will post my experience working with it when I get it in this week.

I live in Massachusetts, and if we get more than 9 days >90 degrees it's an odd summer.
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Old 08-30-2008   #41
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

I'll have to check out that Protectowrap if it's actually butyl....

I've had P&S in my van liftgate and doors for 3-4 years and never a single issue. In fact, I was wary about the complaints about the tar smell but never smelled anything and I'm around Memphis where it's always over 90% humidity and hit 118degrees this summer.
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Old 08-30-2008   #42
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy View Post
I'll have to check out that Protectowrap if it's actually butyl....

I've had P&S in my van liftgate and doors for 3-4 years and never a single issue. In fact, I was wary about the complaints about the tar smell but never smelled anything and I'm around Memphis where it's always over 90% humidity and hit 118degrees this summer.
Protectowrap is for sure all butyl, but it has no foil and is rather thin on it's own, but no smell issues and it's incredibly sticky. * www.protectowrap.com *
(I think this is the stuff I got at home depot) :http://www.protectowrap.com/products...dSellSheet.pdf
They have it at my local home depot...in fact they may easily have something better than the flashing tape they sell at home depot on their site.

Last edited by Hispls; 08-30-2008 at 08:24 PM..
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Old 08-30-2008   #43
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

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Rubberized asphalt is NOT butyl. All asphalt products of this type have rubber compounds mixed in, so this product is ASPHALT.

It sounds like there may have been a problem with some of the RAAMmat some of you received. I also recall that when you've brought it up in other threads, the owner of RAAMaudio has jumped in with offers to make it good. I know in the past, this has included compensation for replacing defective material. It really does suck if substandard product made it out of his door and into your cars, but I have tested many samples of RAAMmat over the years and it has all been butyl with NO detectable asphalt content. Somewhat gooier butyl than Dynamat Xtreme and noticeably gooier than Second Skin and Cascade.

It really distresses me to see people endorsing Peel & Seal, FatMat and other asphalt products for automotive sound deadener use - especially on DIYMA. Anybody reading this thread and considering following this path should do a search. The deficiencies of asphalt have been established beyond any doubt. Here's the real irony. Asphalt is much less effective than butyl. Much less of a proper butyl/aluminum foil product will do the same job as much more asphalt. Asphalt is no cheaper in use, requires much more work to install and is subject to failure. To add insult to injury (actually injury to insult) the fumes are toxic. There is no legitimate reason to use it. People perpetuate this nonsense because it is cheaper per square foot - an almost completely worthless metric.

Some people will insist on using asphalt regardless of the facts so let's look at the logic of using FatMat in particular - as a way to gain some insight into the thought processes of those who endorse this particular product. FatMat is sold as a side line by a roofing supplies distributor. They are an authorized dealer of MFM products, including Peel & Seal.

Peel & Seal and FatMat are indistinguishable except for a cheesy blue logo that gets inked onto FatMat. People complain about it coming off on their hands all the time. I have challenged the owner of FatMat to describe any difference between the two products and he has declined. They measure and test identically. This means that the people who buy FatMat are paying extra to have someone ship them exactly the same material they can buy at Lowe's for less.

Using asphalt in a car is utter foolishness. The way to save money on sound deadening is to use less. There actually are some decent quality butyl/aluminum foil flashing tapes that will work pretty well. Only problem is that they are very thin - 1/3 to 1/2 the thickness of products intended for sound deadening. When you compensate for this, they are no cheaper. Butyl is very expensive. Either the markup isn't as great as some seem to think it is or Industrial suppliers mark their products up as much as sound deadening companies.

I've been looking for cheaper alternatives for years and they really don't exist. You are either going to buy crap at a low price/ft² or you are going to pay a little more. Look at the the ² versions of eDead. People like to believe that these products are comparable to more expensive competitors and that ED is just a bunch of great guys or buys in such volume that they can sell their product for less. No! They buy a product that uses much cheaper Mylar instead of the far superior but more expensive aluminum foil used by the others. They charge less because eDead costs them less and once again you get what you pay for.

I only support people using asphalt based mat since it seems that most manufacturers are selling asphalt based mat and passing it off as buty. I had an issue with Raam Mat, told Rick about it and never heard anything back. I sold the two rolls I bought, made the mistake of trusting another compay that claims butyl and it's indistinguishable from Raam Mat...B Quiet Ultimate was the brand. I have heard many people asking if I tried the mineral spirits test, well cleaning the utilifty knife off took a little bit of Goo Gone aka orange flavored mineral spirits.

As a non scientific guess, Raam Mat and B quiet are asphalt based, get you , your car and everyone helping you covered in the stuff and it comes off with mineral spirits. I think that if someone is buying a particular product that is advertised as butyl, but is obviously something different then they might as well run to Home Depot and know what they are getting. I would rather see someone pay for low end products then pay for mid end products and receive low end products.
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Old 08-31-2008   #44
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLN305 View Post
I only support people using asphalt based mat since it seems that most manufacturers are selling asphalt based mat and passing it off as buty. I had an issue with Raam Mat, told Rick about it and never heard anything back. I sold the two rolls I bought, made the mistake of trusting another compay that claims butyl and it's indistinguishable from Raam Mat...B Quiet Ultimate was the brand. I have heard many people asking if I tried the mineral spirits test, well cleaning the utilifty knife off took a little bit of Goo Gone aka orange flavored mineral spirits.

As a non scientific guess, Raam Mat and B quiet are asphalt based, get you , your car and everyone helping you covered in the stuff and it comes off with mineral spirits. I think that if someone is buying a particular product that is advertised as butyl, but is obviously something different then they might as well run to Home Depot and know what they are getting. I would rather see someone pay for low end products then pay for mid end products and receive low end products.
I really think you've drawn the wrong conclusion from this. Using asphalt is big mistake - whether or not you think you got asphalt misrepresented as butyl.

I can tell you that both RAAMmat and BQ Ultimate are butyl products (BQ Extreme is asphalt). if yours was actually asphalt, that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. When you first contacted me about your concerns, I described a very simple test you could do to determine if the material was asphalt or butyl. If you had done that, we'd have something. As it is, all we know is that the RAAMmat you used was messy and that you are assuming it is asphalt and from that somehow concluding that asphalt is a reasonable choice.

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Old 08-31-2008   #45
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudeboy View Post
I can tell you that both RAAMmat and BQ Ultimate are butyl products (BQ Extreme is asphalt). if yours was actually asphalt, that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. When you first contacted me about your concerns, I described a very simple test you could do to determine if the material was asphalt or butyl. If you had done that, we'd have something. As it is, all we know is that the RAAMmat you used was messy and that you are assuming it is asphalt and from that somehow concluding that asphalt is a reasonable choice.
If it smells like asphalt, runs like asphalt, and leaves an oily residue on the backing paper like asphalt, I'd say it's asphalt. I've used two butyl products (Damplifier and Dynamat X-treme) and they are absolutely nothing like this batch of Raammat. I have used Protectowrap also. Guess what-virtually identical. No one has said that ALL Raammat is crappy asphalt. All these, "I used Raammat 3 years ago and it's good," comments are pointless. No one said it wasn't good then. We are talking about one recent batch. It is probably a fluke, but it needs to be addressed.

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Old 08-31-2008   #46
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooble View Post
If it smells like asphalt, runs like asphalt, and leaves an oily residue on the backing paper like asphalt, I'd say it's asphalt. I've used two butyl products (Damplifier and Dynamat X-treme) and they are absolutely nothing like this batch of Raammat. I have used Protectowrap also. Guess what-virtually identical. No one has said that ALL Raammat is crappy asphalt. All these, "I used Raammat 3 years ago and it's good," comments are pointless. No one said it wasn't good then. We are talking about one recent batch. It is probably a fluke, but it needs to be addressed.
I agree it needs to be addressed, or more to the point, investigated. All somebody has to do is drop a square inch of the stuff in an ounce or two of mineral spirits and show us what color the liquid turns in an hour. Then we'll know what we are dealing with and hopefully get a response from the horse's mouth. Oily residue is reason for concern, but PW sells both asphalt and butyl materials. I'm not here to defend RAAMmat and the last sample I tested was just about 6 months ago.

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Old 08-31-2008   #47
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

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I really think you've drawn the wrong conclusion from this. Using asphalt is big mistake - whether or not you think you got asphalt misrepresented as butyl.

I can tell you that both RAAMmat and BQ Ultimate are butyl products (BQ Extreme is asphalt). if yours was actually asphalt, that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. When you first contacted me about your concerns, I described a very simple test you could do to determine if the material was asphalt or butyl. If you had done that, we'd have something. As it is, all we know is that the RAAMmat you used was messy and that you are assuming it is asphalt and from that somehow concluding that asphalt is a reasonable choice.
I am not concluding that asphalt is a reasonable choice, I just don't want to buy asphalt based sound deadeners that cost more than Peel n Seal. I think everyone should use butyl deadeners, but if you can't afford butly then don't overpay for the alternative.
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Old 08-31-2008   #48
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

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I agree it needs to be addressed, or more to the point, investigated. All somebody has to do is drop a square inch of the stuff in an ounce or two of mineral spirits and show us what color the liquid turns in an hour. Then we'll know what we are dealing with and hopefully get a response from the horse's mouth. Oily residue is reason for concern, but PW sells both asphalt and butyl materials. I'm not here to defend RAAMmat and the last sample I tested was just about 6 months ago.
I am going to get a piece of Raam Mat from Snaimpally as well as use a piece of B Quiet ultimate and put them in Mineral Spirits so we can see what happens. Expect the results Monday evening.
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Old 08-31-2008   #49
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

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I am going to get a piece of Raam Mat from Snaimpally as well as use a piece of B Quiet ultimate and put them in Mineral Spirits so we can see what happens. Expect the results Monday evening.
Now we're having fun

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Old 08-31-2008   #50
 
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Default Re: Home depot "dynamat" for real this time?

protecto wrap also makes defenseal, a liquid latex based waterproofing sealer intended to be used as an anti-fracture membrane under tile. It looks like it can be used as a liquid deadener; I'll have to find a local supply and try it out.
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