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Old 12-16-2008   #1
 
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Default JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Why don't I get any mid-bass out of my 5.25" component speaker? All I get is midrange output. Any ideas? Thanks.
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Old 12-16-2008   #2
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Not very much info to go off of there. How are they mounted, for starters? How much Power is on them?

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Old 12-16-2008   #3
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Sorry about that. It replaced the factory Speaker in the doors of my 1994 Pontiac Grand Prix SE edition. I used an Alpine CDM-7861 indash cd player connected to an audio Control 4.1 EQ. I was feeding the components with a Rockford Fosgate 200@1 mono amplifier. I bought the above because in the marketing literature it spoke of receiving "spanking" midbass. I have had it for about 5-6 years now. I have even put them into fiberglass Speaker pods but they sound the same as if they were mounted in the doors - good, but still no midbass, despite all the adjustments that I make on the eq. All of my tone controls on the eq is set to FLAT.
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Old 12-16-2008   #4
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

More info would be nice.

I've never heard those JLs specifically, but installation and tuning techniques are critical to get adequate mid-bass output from smaller speakers.

If installed in a door, look into sound deadening the panels and sealing off access holes to prevent front and rear waves from canceling out, as well as unwanted resonances.

Play with phase and EQ'ing. Experiment with crossover points and slopes of the mids and sub (if you have one) to better blend the sound.
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Old 12-16-2008   #5
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

You're feeding the components with a mono amplifier???

Are you powering them from the Head Unit, maybe? If so, where are the HP filters set on the head unit channels that Power them?
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Old 12-16-2008   #6
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Sorry... double post

Last edited by msmith; 12-16-2008 at 02:10 PM.. Reason: double post
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Old 12-16-2008   #7
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

The fiberglass pods could result in over damping the midbasses. Maybe try cutting a hole to let the drivers breathe more easily?

It could be that the JL's have no midbass response. Time for a new driver.

There are good reviews of 5.25" component sets from Phoenix Gold RSD and Pioneer Premier on here somewhere.
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Old 12-16-2008   #8
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

I have since moved them to custom-made fiberglass kick panels after looking closely at the door panels with all of those open holes, thinking that my situation would finally be solved. But, I still get no mid-bass out of those components. I am beginning to think that I need the AC EQL on just those components to punch out those midbass sounds, as I have tried everything over the years and nothing has helped. Just looking for some ideas before I make that purchase.
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Old 12-16-2008   #9
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Putting them in less air space (kick panels) will only make it worse. I don't know what you're expecting or what you're getting out of them, but have you checked your crossover settings, phase, etc.?
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Old 12-16-2008   #10
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

is he using a mono sub amp ?

example:
Mono subwoofer amplifier 1500 watts x 1 at 1 ohm
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Old 12-16-2008   #11
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith View Post
You're feeding the components with a mono amplifier???

Are you powering them from the Head Unit, maybe? If so, where are the HP filters set on the head unit channels that Power them?
Yes I am. On a side note, the bass is done with a JL audio 1000/1 amplifier feeding 2 10W6's. I have since purchased a 300/2 amplifier which I have not hooked up as yet, as a possible cure to my solution. It has been sitting in a box ever since.

The 200@1 is connected as follows: 200 watts into 2 Ohms, I believe. I paralleled the component Speaker wires so that the amplifier is seeing a 2 Ohm impedance.

Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by ashlar; 12-16-2008 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 12-16-2008   #12
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

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Originally Posted by a$$hole View Post
is he using a mono sub amp ?

example:
Mono subwoofer amplifier 1500 watts x 1 at 1 ohm
The amp is full range mono or you can make it into a sub amp if you wish. Bandwith is 20 - 20k.
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Old 12-16-2008   #13
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith View Post
Putting them in less air space (kick panels) will only make it worse. I don't know what you're expecting or what you're getting out of them, but have you checked your crossover settings, phase, etc.?
My expectations: to get midbass output out of those speakers. I like the smooth midrange and highs that I receive out of them. They do sound very good. Am I expecting too much in wanting midbass out of them? I chose them because of the marketing literature.

Crossover settings: I have played with them back and forth and the sound remains the same.

Phase: you could have a good point there, as what I thought was the amp's Speaker + was the - and it seems that I had it connected this was for many years. Would that make a big difference?

Is my expectation too high for those components?
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Old 12-16-2008   #14
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar View Post
My expectations: to get midbass output out of those speakers. I like the smooth midrange and highs that I receive out of them. They do sound very good. Am I expecting too much in wanting midbass out of them? I chose them because of the marketing literature.

Crossover settings: I have played with them back and forth and the sound remains the same.

Phase: you could have a good point there, as what I thought was the amp's Speaker + was the - and it seems that I had it connected this was for many years. Would that make a big difference?

Is my expectation too high for those components?
Yes, phase makes a huge difference in terms of low frequency response. Not only does the phase between the two 5.25's matter, but also between the 5.25's and the sub. Reversing the sub polarity can have a huge impact on the midbass. It's also important to not overdrive the sub as this will overwhelm the midbass output and sound muddy.

The installation of the 5.25's also matters... too little airspace will choke the low end and create a bump in the lower midrange. A leaky install will also cancel bass output.

It's very hard to tune your Car via the internet, but you need to find someone with some experience who can give it a listen and maybe help you out.

Also, it is generally recommended to use a stereo amplifier to Power a pair of coaxials.
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Old 12-16-2008   #15
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Thanks.

Could I ask a few more questions, as I am really trying to learn.

Am I to understand that those 5.25's were designed to be used in the doors ONLY? What type of speakers goes into the kick panels? Specially designed ones? Why reverse the sub, when there is a + and - mark to connect the speakers to. I thought it was straightforward in ++ and --. I have experimented with phase reversal switches on sub amps before, but couldn't tell a difference, not in this installation, however.

Finally, is 5.25" component speakers too small for one to be expecting midbass? If the answere is yes, then what do you recommend.
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Old 12-16-2008   #16
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar View Post
Thanks.

Could I ask a few more questions, as I am really trying to learn.

Am I to understand that those 5.25's were designed to be used in the doors ONLY?
Possibly, most Car mid woofers are designed with those locations in mind and will have parameters which would give best results in effective "infinite baffle" alignments.

What type of speakers goes into the kick panels? Specially designed ones?

I'd look for something that has been tested to work well for what you want it to do in a small airspace. Anything you'll see on partsexpress or madisound would have t/s specs that you could plug into winISD and see what sort of response you'd get in tiny sealed box. Also there's more woofers designed for small boxes that are marketed to home theater guys who want small bookshelf type stuff, so that's where I'd start searching

Why reverse the sub, when there is a + and - mark to connect the speakers to.
It has to do with the phase at which the sound waves reach your ears. Since the sub is further away, the waves may be inverted at critical frequencies. You can simply switch the + and - wires right at the amp (if it's a DVC sub, reverse both - and both +'s) Some amps just have a switch or dial you can change phase with. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not. You can simply switch and test to find out what it'll do in your application.

I thought it was straightforward in ++ and --. I have experimented with phase reversal switches on sub amps before, but couldn't tell a difference, not in this installation, however.

Well there's your answer then....but sometimes it can help


Finally, is 5.25" component speakers too small for one to be expecting midbass? If the answere is yes, then what do you recommend.

Could possibly you just expect too much out of such a small driver. What is adequate is totally subjective, but I would definitely try to reverse polarity on one of the 5 1/4's and see if that helps.

I think the Tang Band makes a really beefy 5 1/4" woofer that may do more, but I haven't modeled it so no telling what it'll do in a small box, or even if it will do adequate midrange up high in addition to the low stuff that you're missing. For 6 1/2's I can vouch for the low end of the ID's and the Mpyres. There's probalby plenty more too. Honestly I was talking to a guy out in Cali this summer that had some JL 6.5' components and he was really disappointed with the low end of the mids. He swapped out to Focal and was very pleased.
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Old 12-17-2008   #17
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Thanks to everyone for all the responses that I have received thus far.

In order to get to the bottom of my problem I started from the first advice that I received and decided to work my way down the list. I didn't want to put an otherwise good Speaker in a bad light.

I first took off the door panel and realized that no one's 5.25" component Speaker is going to work in that location and sound the way I want it.

What I did notice was the location to mount the speaker is a plastic mount raised away from the door panel with wide holes on top and bottom of the mounting surface, so that the magnet would not come into contact with window glass when it is opening and closing. Air will be escaping from the rear of the speaker, so that seems to be the source of my problem - no midbass. No brand of manufacturer speaker can work in such an environment and give satisfactory performance without modification.

What are my options? I have two. (1) I can modify the mounting location and seal off the door which I am not prepared to do as I already have custom made kicks or get rid of the JL Audio's as they obviously were not designed to be used in a custom made kick panel. It is easier to put them in the fiberglass kickpanel as I already have them made.

(2) Look for another manufacturer's component set that was designed to be used in a kickpanel environment. Any suggestions? The last poster mentioned ID and I am certainly going to take a look at them and contact them on what I am trying to accomplish. That's just one option.
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Old 12-17-2008   #18
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

This is the owner's manual for the Rockford Fosgate Power Series 200@1 amplifier for those that were somewhat confused that a mono full range amplfier couldn't drive or run components.

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftec...erMono_MAN.pdf
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Old 12-17-2008   #19
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

I'd suggest you try to improve the door mounting locations first. It may be the easiest fix, and if you're still lacking at least you have a good place to start with if you decide to start testing new equipment.
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith View Post
Putting them in less air space (kick panels) will only make it worse. I don't know what you're expecting or what you're getting out of them, but have you checked your crossover settings, phase, etc.?
I just checked but the model I have has a 2-way network with natural low-pass roll-off and 4th order high-pass circuit, so there is no crossover on the bass, just the high pass and the switch on the xover is for "adjustable tweeter output level".
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Old 12-17-2008   #21
 
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hispls View Post
I'd suggest you try to improve the door mounting locations first. It may be the easiest fix, and if you're still lacking at least you have a good place to start with if you decide to start testing new equipment.
I will try that as your advice seems reasonable, but having said that, I have a thought. Even though the door and Speaker mount is as it is, when the actual door panel is put in place, don't I have a sealed enclosure for the Speaker to work in?
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Old 12-17-2008   #22
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
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I just checked but the model I have has a 2-way network with natural low-pass roll-off and 4th order high-pass circuit, so there is no crossover on the bass, just the high pass and the switch on the xover is for "adjustable tweeter output level".
I was referring to the crossover settings on your ampliifier, not the passive crossovers that come with the components.
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Old 12-17-2008   #23
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
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I will try that as your advice seems reasonable, but having said that, I have a thought. Even though the door and Speaker mount is as it is, when the actual door panel is put in place, don't I have a sealed enclosure for the Speaker to work in?
No. You have to have a good separation between the front and back of the speaker cone to get good bass response. Fixing the mounting situation should improve things significantly.
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Old 12-17-2008   #24
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Default Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar View Post
Yes I am. On a side note, the bass is done with a JL audio 1000/1 amplifier feeding 2 10W6's. I have since purchased a 300/2 amplifier which I have not hooked up as yet, as a possible cure to my solution. It has been sitting in a box ever since.

The 200@1 is connected as follows: 200 watts into 2 Ohms, I believe. I paralleled the component Speaker wires so that the amplifier is seeing a 2 Ohm impedance.

Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Well, other than the fact you're giving up all stereo separation the mono amp you're using will work, but I'm pretty sure the 300/2 will be a major sonic upgrade.
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Thumbs up Re: JL Audio Evolution VR525-CS Component Set

I am so glad I consulted with you guys because it is obvious now that I was on the wrong track and have been for quite a long time.

Thanks to all for leading me in the right direction.
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