Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :) - Page 21 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

View Poll Results: Which of these would you vote for?
Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 114 10.39%
Image Dynamics iDQv2 243 22.15%
Rainbow Vanadium 38 3.46%
Morel Ultimo 234 21.33%
Focal Utopia 27wx 111 10.12%
Other 391 35.64%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1097. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-13-2014   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
You sure it's XBL^2? Never heard about that but I guess you might be right ; reading about all those rave reviews...

Can someone confirm the above?

Thanks,
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I have not read it anywhere. Nick from ORCA told me.

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Old 03-13-2014   #502
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I'm still biased toward the DYNAUDIO esotar2 1200 myself.
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Old 03-13-2014   #503
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
You sure it's XBL^2? Never heard about that but I guess you might be right ; reading about all those rave reviews...

Can someone confirm the above?

Thanks,
Kelvin
Post #60. All of the carbon line except the 4" point source uses xbl^2.

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Old 03-13-2014   #504
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Has anyone modeled the XL??? I just did and unless the specs are wrong, this sub models for a 12.467 FT^3 enclosure to be at .707. That is a seriously huge enclosure. This sub looks like it would be "fun" but the specs don't scream SQ.
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Old 03-13-2014   #505
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Has anyone modeled the XL??? I just did and unless the specs are wrong, this sub models for a 12.467 FT^3 enclosure to be at .707. That is a seriously huge enclosure. This sub looks like it would be "fun" but the specs don't scream SQ.

Yeah, that's not right...which spec sheet did you pull?

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Old 03-13-2014   #506
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

The one from Illusion Audio.com

Why would they post an incorrect one and where would the right one be?
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Old 03-13-2014   #507
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
The one from Illusion Audio.com

Why would they post an incorrect one and where would the right one be?

Let me take a look when get to work tomorrow.

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Old 03-13-2014   #508
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Here is the link:
http://www.illusionaudio-america.com...arbonC12XL.pdf
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Old 03-13-2014   #509
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Not sure I buy the XBL^2 for the Carbon, companies usually make it a point to point that out in their literature and sites especially since they have to pay to license the technology they may as well get their money's worth from using it.

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Old 03-13-2014   #510
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Also according to Illusion Audio's website, the C10XL has a QTS of .71 and recommends an enclosure 1/2 the size WinISD states is optimal (.75ft^3 compared to 1.5ft^3). With a QTS already above .707, and an Fs of 42, don't personally see it as an advanced sq sub unless the specs are really wrong.
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Old 03-13-2014   #511
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I've tuned on several systems with the dynaudio sub. I absolutely hated it. It did nothing special. That's why u see them for sale a lot on here. The illusion is the best sub I've owned and tuned on in several vehicles. Jerry, I suggest you do a subwoofer shoutout . I doubt it would beat out the idq honestly


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Old 03-13-2014   #512
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Come on....Really? You see it for sale a lot on here? Lets see, I sold one (but I'm a dealer) and the last one before me????

If you look at the T/S Parameters, the Dyn blows the Carbon out of the water, in every regard. Maybe the enclosure the 1200 was in was the issue, not the woofer itself. The whole point is that the woofer doesn't do anything special, just blends and finishes out the lower end. In a real SQ system, I wouldn't think you would want the sub to stand out. BTW, I have owned the IDQ, played with the Morel, ARC Black, Rainbow, Utopia, on and on and the Dynaudio is by far the best. And you are correct, I doubt the Illusion would beat out the IDQ as well .
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Old 03-13-2014   #513
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bose301s View Post
Not sure I buy the XBL^2 for the Carbon, companies usually make it a point to point that out in their literature and sites especially since they have to pay to license the technology they may as well get their money's worth from using it.
Exactly my point, if you have to license something to make your product better, you at least make a note of it on your website - I searched and so nothing about being an XBL^2 based driver.

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Old 03-13-2014   #514
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

lol. 3 have sold on here since november of 2013. so the 5 that were sold in the last 6 months by Dyn, 3 were re-sold on here. I kid. But seriously, I've tried the Dyn in sealed, ported and IB. IB was the worst sounding of them all. Sorry Jerry, not trying to be a jerk but have you actually heard the Illusion Sub? I didn't see it on your list of subs you have personally played with. Maybe you should become a dealer?

Ts specs are not the end all be all of evaluating how a driver will sound in a particular environment.

And I'll say this about Dyn. They're approach to making drivers and the materials they use are top notch. I had their 5's in my truck recently, and believe their mid-woofers are excellent for door applications, but the subs?? I'll pass.


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Old 03-13-2014   #515
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Come on....Really? You see it for sale a lot on here? Lets see, I sold one (but I'm a dealer) and the last one before me????
There was another guy on here that was selling 2 or 3 of them used.

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Old 03-13-2014   #516
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
lol. 3 have sold on here since november of 2013. so the 5 that were sold in the last 6 months by Dyn, 3 were re-sold on here. I kid. But seriously, I've tried the Dyn in sealed, ported and IB. IB was the worst sounding of them all. Sorry Jerry, not trying to be a jerk but have you actually heard the Illusion Sub? I didn't see it on your list of subs you have personally played with. Maybe you should become a dealer?

Ts specs are not the end all be all of evaluating how a driver will sound in a particular environment.

And I'll say this about Dyn. They're approach to making drivers and the materials they use are top notch. I had their 5's in my truck recently, and believe their mid-woofers are excellent for door applications, but the subs?? I'll pass.

People sell for many reasons, you know that. I don't believe that many have ever been sold to change to a different woofer. I agree with some of the things you posted. I'm not a huge fan of them IB (seem to lack the pop) but sealed, they are tough to beat, IMHO.

Yes, I have actually thought about carrying Illusion (can't seen to get a call back, even though Nick has assured me on a couple different occasions - not butt hurt though...more of an..."oh well"). No, I have not heard one. T/S may not tell all the tale, but really, the T/S aren't all that good, even for the 10". T/S aside, I'm sure in the proper enclosure, they probably sound pretty good. I just don't care for manufacturers that claim "this sub will fit in a .25ft^3 and play with authority to 5Hz and yet the modeling software tells a completely different story.....you know what I mean (exaggerated, of course)? Something I have respected with Image Dynamics and JL Audio. Usually, they are pretty darn close.

It seems like a little bit of "they are the newest, so they are the best" syndrome and I thought I'd voice my opinion and stick up for the brand I like the best. I do sell other brands, but personally I like the Dynaudio e1200 the best.
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Old 03-14-2014   #517
 
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Default Illusion Audio is XBL^2 licensed

Hello,

I can confirm that ALL Illusion audio Carbon models plus the Luccent L5CX and L6CX use a dual magnetic gap XBL^2 motor.
US patent # 7,039,213.
Illusion audio has licensed XBL^2 from Dan Wiggins and David Hyre since 2006.

Here is the XBL^2 patent;
Patent US7039213 - Speaker driver - Google Patents

All Illusion Audio Speaker models were developed using DYNE Analytics MoTIV FEA design software designed by Dan Wiggins and David Hyre.
Depending on application, they use one, two or three Faraday rings to control inductance modulation to lower distortion.

http://www.dyneanalytics.com/product-1.htm

Magnetic FEA models were cross checked with ANSYS Maxwell.
ANSYS Maxwell

Cone resonance and suspension FEA analysis was done with LOUDsoft FINECone.
FINECone

The speakers were measured with Audio Precision, LMS and CLIO to confirm performance.
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Old 03-14-2014   #518
 
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Default Illusion Audio C12XL and C10XL recomended box tune

LspCAD Professional box simulation confirmed with LMS measurements.

C10XL and C12XL have a rigid and highly damped cone made by laminating woven carbon fiber to thick paper. The two materials have complementary bending stiffness, tensile yield strength and damping.
Because inductance is low due to the XBL^2 voice coil and Faraday ring rise time and impulse response are good. High frequency response is smooth with -3dB around 1500 Hz. They work well with a 800 Hz 24dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover to a ribbon tweeter.
XBL^2 motor design with Faraday ring has a BL product and Inductance VS excursion that is relatively flat and symmetrical so 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion are low and intermodulation distortion is low.
This is very important for sound quality !

For Car stereo, C12XL recommended sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.3 cubic foot or 36 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 46 Hz
Qtc system = 0.95
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.7 dB peak at 73 Hz.
Relative to 73 Hz, -3dB is at 41 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 62 volts RMS = 960 watts
50 Hz = 75 volts RMS = 1400 watts

For Car stereo, C10XL recommended sealed net box volume is 0.75 cubic foot or 21 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 51 Hz
Qtc system = 0.87
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.2 dB peak at 95 Hz.
Relative to 95 Hz, -3dB is at 46 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 61 volts RMS = 930 watts
50 Hz = 72 volts RMS = 1300 watts
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Old 03-14-2014   #519
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

1400 watts?! I need a bigger amp!

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Old 03-14-2014   #520
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Default

Golden Ear, are you running sealed enclosures for your subs?

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Old 03-14-2014   #521
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Yes. Both are in 1 cubic foot sealed but I have BlackHole Stuff in the enclosure with the c12xl.

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Old 03-14-2014   #522
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Default Re: Illusion Audio C12XL and C10XL recomended box tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaispice View Post
LspCAD Professional box simulation confirmed with LMS measurements.

C10XL and C12XL have a rigid and highly damped cone made by laminating woven carbon fiber to thick paper. The two materials have complementary bending stiffness, tensile yield strength and damping.
Because inductance is low due to the XBL^2 voice coil and Faraday ring rise time and impulse response are good. High frequency response is smooth with -3dB around 1500 Hz. They work well with a 800 Hz 24dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover to a ribbon tweeter.
XBL^2 motor design with Faraday ring has a BL product and Inductance VS excursion that is relatively flat and symmetrical so 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion are low and intermodulation distortion is low.
This is very important for sound quality !

For Car stereo, C12XL recommended sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.3 cubic foot or 36 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 46 Hz
Qtc system = 0.95
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.7 dB peak at 73 Hz.
Relative to 73 Hz, -3dB is at 41 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 62 volts RMS = 960 watts
50 Hz = 75 volts RMS = 1400 watts

For Car stereo, C10XL recommended sealed net box volume is 0.75 cubic foot or 21 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 51 Hz
Qtc system = 0.87
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.2 dB peak at 95 Hz.
Relative to 95 Hz, -3dB is at 46 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 61 volts RMS = 930 watts
50 Hz = 72 volts RMS = 1300 watts
Thanks for the post and informations. Wonder why your website does not mention the use of XBL^2?

Kelvin

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 03-14-2014   #523
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I just installed two Dynaudio Esotar 1200s in my car, in a trunk baffle.
They are definitely the best sounding subwoofers I've ever had.
They aren't even broken in yet, and I haven't spent much time tuning them yet, either. Looking forward to them sounding even better once I do.

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Old 03-14-2014   #524
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Default

Looks very nice! I won't bash Dynaudio as I'm sure it sounds great. I just am really impressed with the amount of output from the single C12XL compared to Ultimo 12, 12w6v2, Ultimo 12SC. Output for me is similar to the 12w7 without getting sloppy or sounding tubby or boomy.

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Old 03-14-2014   #525
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Default Re: Illusion Audio C12XL and C10XL recomended box tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaispice View Post
LspCAD Professional box simulation confirmed with LMS measurements.

C10XL and C12XL have a rigid and highly damped cone made by laminating woven carbon fiber to thick paper. The two materials have complementary bending stiffness, tensile yield strength and damping.
Because inductance is low due to the XBL^2 voice coil and Faraday ring rise time and impulse response are good. High frequency response is smooth with -3dB around 1500 Hz. They work well with a 800 Hz 24dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover to a ribbon tweeter.
XBL^2 motor design with Faraday ring has a BL product and Inductance VS excursion that is relatively flat and symmetrical so 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion are low and intermodulation distortion is low.
This is very important for sound quality !

For Car stereo, C12XL recommended sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.3 cubic foot or 36 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 46 Hz
Qtc system = 0.95
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.7 dB peak at 73 Hz.
Relative to 73 Hz, -3dB is at 41 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 62 volts RMS = 960 watts
50 Hz = 75 volts RMS = 1400 watts

For Car stereo, C10XL recommended sealed net box volume is 0.75 cubic foot or 21 liter filled with Black Hole Stuff acoustic cotton.
The effective sealed net box volume is 1.0 cubic foot or 28 liter.
Fc system resonance frequency = 51 Hz
Qtc system = 0.87
Relative to 200 Hz there is a +0.2 dB peak at 95 Hz.
Relative to 95 Hz, -3dB is at 46 Hz.
Power input to reach +/- 18mm Xmax.
35 Hz and lower = 58 volts RMS = 840 watts
40 Hz = 61 volts RMS = 930 watts
50 Hz = 72 volts RMS = 1300 watts
Has anyone been able to definitively measure the Qtc with and without the Black Hole Stuff to see if those numbers are accurate? Also, Qtc of .95 is a little high, don't you think?
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