Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :) - Page 8 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

View Poll Results: Which of these would you vote for?
Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 114 10.39%
Image Dynamics iDQv2 243 22.15%
Rainbow Vanadium 38 3.46%
Morel Ultimo 234 21.33%
Focal Utopia 27wx 111 10.12%
Other 391 35.64%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1097. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-30-2010   #176
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
Don't believe I've ever seen a W6 or 7 in IB. With a smaller trunk or the install taking up most of it, I could see it. Problem is the effective cone area isn't that big due to the surround so you'd need 3 where a good pair of IB subs would suffice, for example.

What's a "good" midbass Speaker to you? Quite a broad (and arrogant) generalization of an entire forum. And all my speakers were more than $25 a pair so you need to back up your statements a little more instead of speaking in generalities.

I do my Backing up with my Car!!! Thanks.

I thought I was pretty clear when I said I know of several World class Sounding cars using the w6-w7 some of which running IB, with plenty of trunk room to spare.

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Last edited by mmiller; 04-30-2010 at 07:59 PM..
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Old 04-30-2010   #177
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
Don't believe I've ever seen a W6 or 7 in IB. With a smaller trunk or the install taking up most of it, I could see it. Problem is the effective cone area isn't that big due to the surround so you'd need 3 where a good pair of IB subs would suffice, for example.
Why do you think the effective cone area of a W6 or W7 is significantly less than a standard driver?

12W7 Sd: 542cm^2
12W6v2 Sd: 502cm^2

Fi Q Sd: 481 cm^2
Alpine SWR 1223Sd: 480cm^2
AE AV-12 Sd: 471cm^2
Exodus Shiva-X Sd: 506cm^2
Dayton Ref 12" Sd: 514cm^2

I'd say the 12" JL's are pretty much right in line with the average 12" driver. You certainly wouldn't need 3 JL's to equal a pair of "normal" drivers. The parameters don't exclude either of the JL's from performing well IB either. Reasonble Q, Fs is a tad higher than I might prefer but it isn't unsatisfactory.

There was a long thread on ECA about using a W7 IB and Manville basically said the main "issue" is that the suspension wasn't designed to limit excursion, so you run the risk of mechanically overdriving the Speaker which wouldn't be covered under warranty.
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Old 04-30-2010   #178
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiller View Post
I do my Backing up with my Car!!! Thanks.
In other words, no answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeak9798 View Post
Why do you think the effective cone area of a W6 or W7 is significantly less than a standard driver?

I'd say the 12" JL's are pretty much right in line with the average 12" driver. You certainly wouldn't need 3 JL's to equal a pair of "normal" drivers. The parameters don't exclude either of the JL's from performing well IB either. Reasonble Q, Fs is a tad higher than I might prefer but it isn't unsatisfactory.
How is that possible with the huge surround? Like...physically. I don't know how it's measured...

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Old 04-30-2010   #179
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post


How is that possible with the huge surround? Like...physically. I don't know how it's measured...
The huge surround goes to the outside of the basket on a W7, so the cone area can be maximized.
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Old 04-30-2010   #180
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
In other words, no answer.


How is that possible with the huge surround? Like...physically. I don't know how it's measured...


Like I said... ill put a w7 in my car... Bring it....

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Old 04-30-2010   #181
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

The Only thing I have to say is.... I have a lot of respect for JL Audio, they make very nice Products that Always Perform excellently, with a Great deal of Value for the Money IMo.

JL audio also still supports sanctioned Car audio events, something that cannot be said for 99% of the other Company's anymore.

They deserve some Props man..

someone with the ear for Music of Manville Smith, who has Mentored some of the best Competitors in the game says something sounds good, then i'm gonna take his word for it over some Keyboard know it all. Sorry man.

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Old 05-01-2010   #182
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
How is that possible with the huge surround? Like...physically. I don't know how it's measured...
Sd = (3.1416 * D^2)/4

Where D is the diameter of the cone plus one third of the surround at both ends of the measurement.


As the other user mentioned, the W7 doesn't lose any cone area with the large surround due to it's design, where it extends to the outside of the basket. They did this intentionally, for that exact reason.....no loss in cone area.
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Old 05-01-2010   #183
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREETOP View Post
The huge surround goes to the outside of the basket on a W7, so the cone area can be maximized.
Haha, don't know wtf I was thinking about. I thought about it before I fell asleep and remembered that. Believe it or not, I wasn't drinking
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiller View Post
Like I said... ill put a w7 in my car... Bring it....
Still didn't answer the midbass question...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiller View Post
The Only thing I have to say is.... I have a lot of respect for JL Audio, they make very nice Products that Always Perform excellently, with a Great deal of Value for the Money IMo.

JL audio also still supports sanctioned Car audio events, something that cannot be said for 99% of the other Company's anymore.

They deserve some Props man..

someone with the ear for Music of Manville Smith, who has Mentored some of the best Competitors in the game says something sounds good, then i'm gonna take his word for it over some Keyboard know it all. Sorry man.
Can't you read? I never said they were bad products. I ran a couple versions of JL W3 subs for years. I gave my reasoning as to why W7s are "underrated" around these parts: Big, heavy, deep, expensive.

Like chithead said...if they were cheaper, we'd all have a room full of them. True story...cause they sound very good.

Far as I'm concerned, you're the know-it-all...
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeak9798 View Post
Sd = (3.1416 * D^2)/4

Where D is the diameter of the cone plus one third of the surround at both ends of the measurement.


As the other user mentioned, the W7 doesn't lose any cone area with the large surround due to it's design, where it extends to the outside of the basket. They did this intentionally, for that exact reason.....no loss in cone area.
I must have been thinking about the standard design for mega-surrounds. Dumbass moment

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Old 05-01-2010   #184
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
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its funny how so many Home Audiophile Magazines Give Rave Reviews for the fathom, and Gotham Subwoofer systems... From JL Audio, the Drivers are basically a w7..

Actually they are continually said to be a new Benchmark for all others to follow.. yet for whatever reason on this forum especially they are never mentioned, or respected as a SQ Driver.

Likely because the Shitty 15 Dollar Parts express Midbass can't keep up???

I guess Home Audiophile Magazines that test 100k plus systems don't know anything???

Or Is it that JL among 30 other companies Place a 5000 dollar 1 page add in the Magazine every Month???

These are not Car audio Magazines here folks.. and JL audio is pretty Small Compaired to many Home Audio Speaker Manufacturers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
Could play a part...

And it doesn't really matter what HT products are good since they're not installed in a car. The W7 is big, deep, heavy, and relatively expensive. You need a big-ish amp to run them. It's not that they're bad, it's that they are the counterpoint to what most of us like around here (small box, infinite baffle, stealth installs, minimal trunk space used, etc).

Plus some of us are just cheap bast@rds!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiller View Post
who says a w6 or w7 won't play IB???

I know of several of the BEST sounding Cars.. IASCA top 3 world finalists that run w6's IB.

I think the 1st problem is people on here using Garbage Midbass Speakers, as they play as much or more of an important role for upfront bass, then the sub itself..

The second is Tuning...

The most important is that people on here don't wanna spend more that 25 dollars for a pair of speakers.. Sorry But its the Truth.

These are not Home Theatre Reviews, these are stereo Reproduction Reviews on systems that any of us could only dream of..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan s View Post
Don't believe I've ever seen a W6 or 7 in IB. With a smaller trunk or the install taking up most of it, I could see it. Problem is the effective cone area isn't that big due to the surround so you'd need 3 where a good pair of IB subs would suffice, for example.

What's a "good" midbass Speaker to you? Quite a broad (and arrogant) generalization of an entire forum. And all my speakers were more than $25 a pair so you need to back up your statements a little more instead of speaking in generalities.
Ok guys here is the thing. And there is truth to what both of you are saying.

1. Mid-bass does play a huge roll in getting upfront bass with rear mounted sub. Mid-bass to sub-bass transition is one of the hards to get right without have rattles and tactile energy transfer in the said vehicle. So not just the speaker are important installation is just as important. I have some of the best bass I have ever listen to from less expensive subs, but care was truly taken to maximize the install to the highest degree.

2. Price well this is one of the topics the DIYMA was built on. Finding the best product for the least expensive price. Notice the key word least expensive not Cheap. Cheap IMO is a strong word which tends to lead to the Cheaply designed drivers. There are tones of great products on the market that can be had to offer great performance that are within in everyones budget.

BUT HEAR THIS:

Just understand that because a driver says it has copper shorting rings and the such and you say these driver have the same feature as the more costly drivers does not mean they are on the same level as the more costly drivers. The purity and quality of the parts used comes in to play. Like grade of copper used in the motor and shorting rings. Grade A+ copper is going to cost more then grade C. different cone materials adds or subtracts cost. Aluminum, yes there is different grades of aluminum, and if something is add to it and the process used to make the aluminum cone, all these things make a difference in cost.

Now those that difference in cost, seen in the performance of the drivers, both when technical measurements are taken and/or when installed and subjective listening opinions are given? Some times yes and sometimes NO! But as as humans think like this most of the time. Man I can go buy a new Hyundai Genesis and get all the features of that comparable Mercedes Benz, but man that is a Mercedes Benz. Then we wonder are we just paying for the Mercedes Benz name or is there something special about that Benz that makes it cost 10 grand more. Most of the time you can dig deeper and found allot of that add cost and way it's there.

Ok sorry for the Rant, back to topic?

Here is my/the thing, the sub-woofer is the least important speaker in the system. It only plays what?, 3-5 octaves in most Car car audio systems. In all my years of playing with the most expensive subs and some of the most least expensive subs. Enclosure design has played more of a difference then the subs themselves.

Now don't get me wrong there are some that just out perform the others no matter what you do. And honestly 90% of them have been what us around these parks would call expensive.

3. Where/what is the sub installed in. Is it in a hatch back, Suv, in the side panels of a couple, under the front seats, in the fire wall, in the top center dash, in the kick panels, in the front doors. All this plays a roll in how it will be EQ'ed/Crossed Overred. Also this plays a part on how low you will have to run your mid-bass drivers.

I have found that with subs mount as far forward as you can get them, the easier it is to get the mid-bass to sub transition correct. Also with the sub as far forward as possible, the higher you can cross your mid-bass drivers to get the all important upfront bass feel. Ya Ya if the sub is in front of you it is up front. But 95% of us can't get a sub upfront. So guess what we do, look for mid-bass drivers that can be ran very low, Ok some of us. And that leads us to what, larger drivers. I for one don't like my mid-bass drivers crossed below 60hz, but that is just me. Hell one of the best sounding cars I have ever heard had it mid-bass crossover at around 70hz, Ya his subs where under the front seats, but that is my point.

Some say for mid-bass there is no need for anything bigger then a 6.5-7" driver, some say it has to be an 8". There are some who has used a 5.25" in a 2-way that will kick most of the 6-8" in a 3-way ass back and forward.


4. Are drivers like the W7, Morel Ultimo, Falstaff, Ali very costly yes. Do they offer outstanding performance when used correctly HELL YES! Can you get great sound using less cost sub, HELL YES! I will say this the Falstaff is just about my fav sub as all times, but I have yet to hear the Ultimo as from what I read about it is as a very similar sound to the Falstaff. I also very interest in hearing the BM MKIII.

Ok enough of me for now. I know after i post this I going to go back and find all kind is mis-spellings and the such, but man I don't feel like proof reading all of this now.

O ya, maybe I'm just crazy and don't know what the H**L I'm taking about. I just go on what I have learn, tested, and heard and used in the real world!

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Old 05-01-2010   #185
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Why does everyone think you need gobs of Power to run a Tweet?
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Old 05-08-2010   #186
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Anybody tried the FI.Q?
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Old 05-17-2010   #187
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

for low output wide bandwidth i personally believe that XBL^2 is the way to go.. although your not going to hear a huge difference with such low output the XBL topology is capable of producing much more heard room for a given input..

high output is a different story thought..
i vote the new shiva x

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Old 05-18-2010   #188
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Also maybe look at the ultra subs, supposed to be very nice
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Old 05-31-2010   #189
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

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Also maybe look at the ultra subs, supposed to be very nice
ROFLZ
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Old 05-31-2010   #190
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Got to audition the IDMAX this week. I am VERY impressed with it. Sad to say I'll be using a Focal 33A in my install, but if I ever come across the right amount of Power to make the IDMAX shine, I'll definitely be swapping them out.


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Old 06-01-2010   #191
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Shiva x-2
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Old 06-02-2010   #192
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

you are missing the incriminator audio flatlyne

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Old 06-24-2010   #193
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Okay, talk about wanting to argue....how many times did I say they were good subs! I am looking for the best of the best....thats all....sorry not to agree with you.....but since Car audio mag (not in business anymore) said it is the best, I guess it must be (even though my ears - and most ears on here - don't agree). A corvette is a great sports car, would you say it is the same category as a McLaren or Lamborghini?
Two nonsense statements. There is no best of the best other than your subjective best unless you only buy speakers by how they measure. And as far as a vette being in the category as a mclaren or lambo I would argue performance wise yes. And I surely would not mention a lambo in the same breath as a Mclaren. Other than possibly the Mclaren I would ask do you think a lambo is in the same performance category as a GTR?

Basically I think all of the elite nonsense should be disregarded when your talking about a Speaker playing such limited octaves as a you are asking your sub to play when its clear that the install and application will have a 1000X more influence on output than just the sub itself. Just my .02 cents

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Old 06-24-2010   #194
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Well since this thread is back TTT I'll ask the question:

Where is this elitist bias toward Morel, Dynaudio, Focal, Rainbow, and ID even justified? Certainly not the objective performance as there are countless subwoofers on the market that will lay all of them to waste.

Morel and Dynaudio haven't pushed the technology envelope since the 1980s. Very few people cried when Dynaudio yanked their drivers off of the DIY home audio market because they were problematic and required too many components to smooth out the response curve and there were tons of better options for less money coming from Vifa, SEAS, Peerless, and others. If somebody likes the warm sound of 2nd order distortion, their stuff will fit your preferences to a T and that's just fine. But passing them off as some ultimate technological marvel and the best thing to hit the market in years is just smoke and mirrors. The subwoofers have no objective advantage over a JL W7, a JBL WGTI, a Shiva-x, or even a Peerless XXLS except in terms of output potential in the case of the XXLS. The only thing carrying them is a perception from a time that was long ago and without major changes in design philosophy and engineering teams, will never be again. Some people enjoy harmonic distortion and Power compression, and that's fine, just don't expect me to jump on the wagon when you're ironing it all out in a subjectivist "golden eared" slugfest

I'll choose something with a modern motor design and that performs based on my specific design goals, the elitists are free to argue about how these oversized and overglorified midbass drivers are better than a W7 or a JBL GTI or others all they want to
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Old 06-27-2010   #195
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

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Originally Posted by Dangerranger View Post
Where is this elitist bias toward Morel, Dynaudio, Focal, Rainbow, and ID even justified?
It's called ears. As proven in the midrange test, all the technological breakthroughs and specs don't mean everything when it comes to speakers. Implementation (tuning, install, etc.) is the most important, but it just seems funny how people who haven't heard something can comment on how it sounds based on a spec sheet. I love that quality about many on this forum. BTW, why would you call any of the subs listed here oversized midbass drivers?
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Old 06-27-2010   #196
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

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Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
It's called ears. As proven in the midrange test, all the technological breakthroughs and specs don't mean everything when it comes to speakers. Implementation (tuning, install, etc.) is the most important, but it just seems funny how people who haven't heard something can comment on how it sounds based on a spec sheet. I love that quality about many on this forum. BTW, why would you call any of the subs listed here oversized midbass drivers?
Bingo!

I've heard the technologically marvelous subs and still own a couple of them and they can't perform the way my Ultimo does. Technology doesn't mean shit to my ears. Who the hell would advocate buying drivers based solely on a spec sheet anyway? All subs do not sound alike, nor can they be made to sound alike by tuning the enclosure. Therefore, it only makes sense to actually listen to what you are buying.

What the hell makes me elitist? I've heard 20+ subs (used 4 different ones in my own car) and chose to use an Ultimo because it's the best one I've heard for my musical preference? Get over your technical hard-on.

Pioneer 880PRS, Tru SSLD6, Morel Supremo Piccolo, Hertz ML 1600, Morel 12" Ultimo, Tru Copper C7.4, Clarion DPX11551
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Old 06-28-2010   #197
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Listen, if it doesn't have a high end name, and thousands of people own it, it can't possibly sound that great.

It needs to be something you can't pick up in any corner Car audio shop for it to sound "elite"...
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I agree with Mooble. After much subjective testing, I ended up with the Morel Ultimo. It just blends so well and hits hard while being very articulate. That's almost an impossibility to do both well. I was in audio sales for over 10 years and have designed home audio Speaker systems for a long time as a hobby, so I have a bit of a background as to what a good Speaker should be able to get right.
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Old 06-28-2010   #199
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

definetly the hertz ml3000 im selling!
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Old 07-02-2010   #200
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

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Originally Posted by KLoNe View Post
PG Ti12d Elite

i call this the 15 killer . i love this sub very much and it is very diverse(spl cone and mo bass cone). it can handle massive power, throws down with authority and is an accurate sub(compared to most...). only downside is you need massive Power and a giant box for this sub.
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