Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :) - Page 9 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

View Poll Results: Which of these would you vote for?
Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 114 10.39%
Image Dynamics iDQv2 243 22.15%
Rainbow Vanadium 38 3.46%
Morel Ultimo 234 21.33%
Focal Utopia 27wx 111 10.12%
Other 391 35.64%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1097. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-04-2010   #201
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
It's called ears. As proven in the midrange test, all the technological breakthroughs and specs don't mean everything when it comes to speakers.
The midrange test didn't prove anything in that sense because the drivers that were chosen subjectively were also the best objective performers given the very specific circumstances of the test. A 6300hz shallow slope LPF combined with a 500hz HPF accomplishes two things: It assures that only a floppy damped cone wideband driver will excel, and the really high 500hz HPF negates any advantages of a motor that's worth a damn. A dinky 2" dome midrange with no spider can do 500hz without sweating with a 4th order slope. Dayton's 2" dome is an example. True midrange is 300hz-3khz.

It's not "ears", it's catering to the application. A properly notched and x/o'd SEAS W12CY would wipe the floor with the Dyn midrange for clarity and resolution in it's intended frequency range. But given the test parameters it wouldn't have considering the breakup node at 10khz, meaning crossing it where 2nd and 3rd order distortion didn't excite the breakup node. Doesn't make it a worse midrange driver, it just makes it worse with what's asked of it given the test parameters.

Honestly I'd call the test a perfect example of just how useless a subjective evaluation really is. That's not discrediting those involved in the test or their abilities, as the tiers were pretty bang on accurate considering the circumstances. But the circumstances were only realistic for a handful of the drivers tested. Basically as useless as a subjective evaluation is to begin with, It becomes even more useless given an infinite number of variables that weren't accounted for, and can't particularly be accounted for given the different types of drivers tested.

Last edited by Dangerranger; 07-05-2010 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 07-05-2010   #202
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerranger View Post
The midrange test didn't prove anything in that sense because the drivers that were chosen subjectively were also the best objective performers given the very specific circumstances of the test. A 6300hz shallow slope LPF combined with a 500hz HPF accomplishes two things: It assures that only a floppy damped cone wideband driver will excel, and the really high 500hz HPF negates any advantages of a motor that's worth a damn. A dinky 2" dome midrange with no spider can do 500hz without sweating with a 4th order slope. Dayton's 2" dome is an example. True midrange is 300hz-3khz.
Neither the Dynaudio or the Scan Speak midrange was a wide band driver. We used a 1st order slope which (by my math) means the driver was actually playing more low end information (maybe not at 250hz, but definitely at 125hz). Again, I even posted that we did play a lot with x-over frequencies and slopes for many of the top drivers (and most popular), just did not publish due to not having time to play with all the drivers - the results would not have varied much and the top 2 would have been identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerranger View Post
It's not "ears", it's catering to the application. A properly notched and x/o'd SEAS W12CY would wipe the floor with the Dyn midrange for clarity and resolution in it's intended frequency range. But given the test parameters it wouldn't have considering the breakup node at 10khz, meaning crossing it where 2nd and 3rd order distortion didn't excite the breakup node. Doesn't make it a worse midrange driver, it just makes it worse with what's asked of it given the test parameters.
Where was this magical Speaker during testing? Easy to say when the test has been completed. Send it and I would be happy to test against the Scans or Dyns at any x-over and slope you would like!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerranger View Post
Honestly I'd call the test a perfect example of just how useless a subjective evaluation really is. That's not discrediting those involved in the test or their abilities, as the tiers were pretty bang on accurate considering the circumstances. But the circumstances were only realistic for a handful of the drivers tested. Basically as useless as a subjective evaluation is to begin with, It becomes even more useless given an infinite number of variables that weren't accounted for, and can't particularly be accounted for given the different types of drivers tested.
You are right, we did have an infinite number of variables and tried to address as many as we could. I wish we have only selected 4 or 5 drivers to compare as we would have been able to test many different ways. We had many people in our ear trying to get us to use a frequency range that would obviously benefit their particular driver (none of which placed in the top 2 tiers) and I do believe you really do understand the enormity of the task we had in front of us and appreciate your kind words. However, I still will never understand anyone who reads a spec sheet or T/S parameters and "knows" off that which Speaker would sound the best. I am not saying a budget brand can not surprise (as some did in our test) and their are applications that can benefit just about any driver, but after everything is said and done, are ears are the final judge and the only thing that matters.
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Old 07-05-2010   #203
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Neither the Dynaudio or the Scan Speak midrange was a wide band driver. We used a 1st order slope which (by my math) means the driver was actually playing more low end information (maybe not at 250hz, but definitely at 125hz). Again, I even posted that we did play a lot with x-over frequencies and slopes for many of the top drivers (and most popular), just did not publish due to not having time to play with all the drivers - the results would not have varied much and the top 2 would have been identical.
Well I guess I'd consider myself old school in my definition of wideband. They're wideband compared to most dedicated midranges as both the Scan and Dyn are designed with damped cones that are intended for extension up to 7khz or so. Midrange by definition is 300hz-3khz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Where was this magical Speaker during testing? Easy to say when the test has been completed. Send it and I would be happy to test against the Scans or Dyns at any x-over and slope you would like!
Actually never saw the buildup to the test, only the results later on down the road, only recently starting posting on the forum again after about a year's worth of break. If I still had my W12CYs I'd have been glad to but lost them when I wrecked my truck Course that's assuming the Dyns/Scans were crossed in the same frequency range, which would be 300-3khz on steep slopes double blind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
However, I still will never understand anyone who reads a spec sheet or T/S parameters and "knows" off that which Speaker would sound the best.
I wouldn't qualify a driver based on a "spec sheet" (whatever said spec sheet is?? manufacturer's?) or T/S parameters either. This is where the right testing comes into play, being independent unbiased testing of things like harmonic distortion, frequency response and CSD. Thiele-small parameters are only really useful to the person that's going to use that specific driver given tolerances but to others observing I suppose it does hint at Build quality and consistency (assuming the tested driver was broken in and tested at a similar timeframe to the manufacturer's in terms of the suspension breaking in).

Given the right specifications, and good testing, you can very easily disqualify the duds. Qualifying the rest is purely based on personal preference. Testing can tell you the absolute brutal truth about a driver, but it can't tell you what you like. You can't hear tests, but tests do tell you what you're really hearing much better than ears do
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Old 07-06-2010   #204
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I know this is probably asking for trouble... but I'm curious to hear what you guys think of the POLK SR12? Keep in mind that I have not heard ANY of the subs mentioned, but am researching different speakers to try out!
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Old 07-22-2010   #205
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

You wanna know what I was amazed by...? The TS-W252PRS from Pioneer. Yes I said it. Yes I mean it. I have heard a few of the subs listed here. Some setup in random awful configs and some done by seasoned vets... That damn Pioneer was quick and accurate and sounded...welcoming. Not warm, not tonally dramatic, just...welcoming.

Keeping coloration out of audio, at the high end, is impossible. We should embrace that all speakers will add a slight amount of character. Obviously, the slighter the better, but it exists nonetheless. Thats what makes opinions so valid and diverse. Some prefer the inevitable coloration to be warm or bright or muted or what not... I personally run a 12W7 because in my Jeep I wanted a decent sounding crusher. For my next vehicle I will be going for something a bit more accurate and refined, like the Ultimo my brother runs or the like.

But honestly, that fricking Pioneer TS-W252PRS sounded pretty bloody good. I can't believe I am saying that. But its true. I haven't run a Pioneer sub since my first 12" FAs in 1997. That sub makes me have hope for them once again.

Be well all... I look forward to absorbing the massive amount of knowledge that seems to be on this site.

Last edited by Kappafied; 07-22-2010 at 06:04 AM.. Reason: Forgot some points
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Old 08-10-2010   #206
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Considering the measurements of the PRS midbasses, it's not too much a shock that the subs are good, too. Pricey, though.
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Old 08-11-2010   #207
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Considering the measurements of the PRS midbasses, it's not too much a shock that the subs are good, too. Pricey, though.
LMFAO
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Old 08-14-2010   #208
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Pioneer Subwoofer Car Stereo Products

TS-W5000SPL
12-Inch Competition SPL
$485.99
12"
5000 Watts Max. Music Power
2000 Watts Nominal Power
Handling Dual Voice Coil Design
(2ohm or 8ohm)
Frequency Response: 18 - 2kHz
Sensitivity: 88dB (1W/1m)
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Old 08-29-2010   #209
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

My vote for JL w7
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Old 08-29-2010   #210
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Honestly there is no SQ sub that we can all agree on. A good example someone mentioned JL W7 and honestly I will take an Arc audio sub over the JL sub any day. People got to understand different subwoofer has different Power rating and enclosure size to.
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Old 08-30-2010   #211
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I made a lot of enclosures for my Phase 12" Limited.
Maybe that's the most important thing you have to do!?
He only needs a lot of Power to start playing. That gave a lot of difference too.
The monoblock I use is 1200Watt / 4 Ohm.
Succes to everybody.
Wil
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Old 09-01-2010   #212
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Fan View Post
i call this the 15 killer . i love this sub very much and it is very diverse(spl cone and mo bass cone). it can handle massive power, throws down with authority and is an accurate sub(compared to most...). only downside is you need massive Power and a giant box for this sub.
I will be doing an install at the end of the year running two off a ARC audio 4000SE

PS: Probably spend as much on deadening as I do on the whole install
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Old 09-02-2010   #213
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Ultimate SQ Sub.


♫ Eclipse Sound Monitor DTA-500x + ICD-500x for sale = ( ♫ Audison 5.1k ♫ Hertz HSK 165XL ♫ IDMax 12 ♫
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Old 09-10-2010   #214
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Hey OP, I couldnt bother reading 9 pages, but if you want upfront bass which blends better, my trick is to tune that sub you have with time allignment. Problem solved
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Old 09-30-2010   #215
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I have used the P9 for a lot of years. Good source unit.
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Old 10-01-2010   #216
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Image Dynamics
Arc audio
USD audio [They stopped making them and don't know why].
Diamond Audio D3 and D6
Sound Stream [before the buyout].

Those are the ones I had good experience with.
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Old 10-01-2010   #217
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Don't think that could fit in my car.

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Ultimate SQ Sub.

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Old 10-03-2010   #218
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Smile Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

My favorites:

Old a/d/s Subs
Morel Ultimo
B&W
Old Velodyne

Best Regards

Wendo
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Old 10-03-2010   #219
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

I have a Focal which I'm very happpy with but if I was to look else where I'd love to try out a Critical Mass driver and also one of these.
http://www.audison.eu/index_main.php?Section=TH10

Last edited by English audiophile; 10-03-2010 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 10-11-2010   #220
 
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

In my experience...

vdo Dayton HPS 12"
Focal Utopia 27wx
Focal Polyglass 27
JL 12W3V3

Not necsessarilly in that order...
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Old 11-23-2010   #221
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Hertz ML3000 or Pioneer TS-W252PRS (for a 10", it sounds amazing)



The Build - Version 2 - Wiring by Stinger (power & speaker), Audison (block) and WestCo (Custom Interconnects)
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Old 11-23-2010   #222
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

For me it would be the following

Boston Acoustics G5
Arc audio [ XXD and ARC series].
Image Dynamics.

Also on one last note everyone will have their own opinion on SQ subs and I strongly there is no best SQ sub because of various factors which I wont go into.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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Old 11-26-2010   #223
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Velo


/thread

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Old 11-26-2010   #224
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Default Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by piyush7243 View Post
Shiva x-2
I'd back this up. Had the opportunity to "borrow" a pair of the previous Shiva-X model for my Car for a short while for a listening test. CLEAN was the first impression that came to mind. If you can afford them, get them.

Brian Steele
www.diysubwoofers.org
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Old 12-05-2010   #225
 
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Cool Re: Ultimate SQ Sub - PLEASE VOTE :)

hi,this is how i run my system,USD audio hlcd & 8''midbass custom pods,with a alpine typeR in a .85cuft box between the front sets, iv a voyager,tried some others,but keep going back to the typeR 1022,just have it xover higher to blend,but would never go without a front bass,no matter what it is,just as long as it sounds good to you, but your play with alot less space,there are alot of hi xmax mini subs availible today,that sound just as good if not better then some 8" & 10" subs,cheers
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