View Poll Results: Do you use rear fill?
Yes 437 41.58%
No 614 58.42%
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Old 05-14-2009   #276
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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You have got to be shitting me!

I actually use it in class when I teach as an example one of the shittiest recordings I have ever heard. even a lecture hall does not even help it. In fact I have YET to take a Waves L2 and put it pinned to the piss on an unmastered recording and get it to sound that shitty.

Listen to the vocals, it's one volume and bandwidth compressed to ride in the mix, there are NO dynamics at all, and that's PRE MASTERING. It is THE definition of whiny shitty vocal. There is so much fail in that album that it makes an excellent teaching tool.

It's just a blur of open ass.
hehehe... no. I seriously have not listened to it much. I've definately never critically listened to it. Maybe I have to find the disc to remind myself.

I feel like i'm giving the impression that I have a tin ear, instead of the impression that I never listen to that disc. lol

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Old 05-14-2009   #277
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

after reading this thread since I was a newb before, I no longer use rear fill at all
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Old 05-14-2009   #278
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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hehehe... no. I seriously have not listened to it much. I've definately never critically listened to it. Maybe I have to find the disc to remind myself.

I feel like i'm giving the impression that I have a tin ear, instead of the impression that I never listen to that disc. lol
don't bother, it will just make you feel bad.

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Old 05-14-2009   #279
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Concert sound.

Sans the people that have a stock stereo and are living here with systems in the closet (the number is growing daily.) ALL of our systems have more power per cubic foot than even the largest touring rigs, and that's the only thing I'm gonna say to make you feel good in this post because it goes downhill from here.

Rear-fill or not, there is absolutelynofuckingway a home, studio, or car system can capture the energy of a live event. I don't care if it's a classical hall, local rock venue, jazz club, shed, or a large outdoor venue. NOTHING can substitute the design the engineering team puts into making the system fit the venue and above all the level of adrenaline the crowd gives, NOTHING can replicate that. A competent engineer plays the crowd, watches them, feels them, plays with their strings, and communicates with the performers in almost a subliminal way. More importantly, so does a conductor for an unamplified performance. They were the first sound guys, they play the hall and crowd too!

I don't care who made the recording, I don't care if it's a board mix, a live mic mix or a combination of both, it won't happen. Even in a small chamber hall with a quiet classical group, there's a sixth sense that we derive from those around us, it's called emotion and there is no substitute for that. That's why mark likes live rock-n-roll, that's why live they PWN (and they are dynamic above all means.) But above al,l emotion rules, and you just can't replicate that anywhere but live, amplified or not, it ain't gonna happen.

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Old 05-14-2009   #280
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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I think the two are very distinguishable. Even in the "good ol' days" of cassettes, I'd hit Newbury St. in Boston and go to all the basement tape stores looking for bootlegs of my favorite bands. In a lot of cases, they'd play songs live that they never released, so I'd be stuck with horrible recordings of songs I loved.


Things really haven't changed much for me. This band I really like just released their new album a few weeks ago, but for six months prior to that I was listening to crappy recordings of their live shows because that was the only way to hear those songs! And you know what? They did some of those songs BETTER live than how they turned out on the album. One song in particular had all the dynamics sucked out of it when they got to the studio.

I also saw this same band two weeks ago (drove 11 hours round trip!) and the live set OWNED. The album? Meh. Some bands just can't capture it in two channel audio with limited dynamic range (thanks in part to the loudness war).

True, I guess I follow what you mean. There are plenty of songs i've heard different recordings of, and I usually prefer one over the other.

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Oh, I agree. But remember, the artist (and an engineer) is responsible for what comes out in the live set too. So when you try to emulate their live gig, you're still doing what the artist intended, to a certain degree. There are also other pressures that artists face when throwing a record together. And certains standards that they try to adhere to, whether right or wrong.
Eh, I haven't seen too many recording engineers at live shows. Usually it's some shitty sound guy who more often than not, botches something. Maybe for larger venues and bands they have the RE on hand.


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Yeah, I think a lot of people are trying to address output concerns with rear fill. Others are just used to rear fill in the car because that comes stock in pretty much every car they've driven since they were 16. I think "VP Electricity"'s post had it right -- people need to try it with and without rear fill, and for a week. You can't turn it off (or on) for only a minute and say "blecch I don't like it". That's not a test. The true tuning and trial/error process comes from attempting changes and listening to the difference for an extended period of time. Only then can you distinguish between whether something's better or whether it's just novelty.
Yeah, the problem is, if they are using the rear speakers to give them some kind of bass response, fading to the front will sound pretty lousy. This in itself is not proof that you like rear fill, just that lack of bass sounds bad. lol.

Same goes for a lack of midbass. Midbass from the back sounds better than no midbass at all.

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Yeah, on a budget, it's probably better to sink money elsewhere first. But sometimes people have extra amplifier channels kicking around, and midrange speakers aren't always expensive.
and nearly everyone has a budget, some higher than others. I'd rather spend more on deadening/sound barriers (no matter how much I already have), or processing, or tuning capabilitys, or electrical supply, or practically anything else. Quite honestly, if someone gave me free rear speakers for my car, i'm 99% sure I would not use them.

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Old 05-14-2009   #281
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Recording engineers generally suck balls live. In fact many of the botched things you may have heard is BECAUSE the band brought the recording guy, with the exception of TSO, they carry their recording guy, but he wears many different hats.

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Old 05-15-2009   #282
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

all this arguing on something that ultimately is a matter of taste. just because i dont like rear fill (or, more precisely, think its a waste of effort/money) doesnt mean i feel the need to preach my dogma to everyone else. but thats just me, apparently...
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Old 05-15-2009   #283
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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all this arguing on something that ultimately is a matter of taste.
Taste and preference are different.

Stereo by definition has a solid image in the recording. It is already defined - we don't get to argue about that.

Recreating that image requires a front stage. It's how our ears work. We don't get to argue about that.

Rear speakers - unless carefully controlled with time delay, crossover, and amplitude - ruin the front stage, and therefore the image, and therefore the stereo effect.

And the rationalization most often put forth is, "but I like it better"?

Fine, like it, this is America, you can like what you want - but don't pretend to be a hi-fi enthusiast. If the only thing you care about is tonality and clarity, but you don't care about imaging, then you sound like a sound reinforcement guy to me.
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Old 05-15-2009   #284
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

VP has it, nailed, dead on.

I hate a rear fill, so much in fact that my ham radio goes thru one of those little Navone Eng amps to my stock rear speakers that's my comms speakers and when they bark i know to turn the rig down and listen. My wife, however prefers rear-fill and simply can't understand how someone can live without it.

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If the only thing you care about is tonality and clarity, but you don't care about imaging, then you sound like a sound reinforcement guy to me.
Hey boob! Some of us care about image placement even live! Our musicians may disagree and we may even still tell them at times we run mono, but they don't have to know right?

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Old 05-15-2009   #285
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

.... Uh, ok, how about a merely-average-sound-reinforcement guy?

Sorry about that... Just another thing that makes you special, Chad.

Hey, I never heard back about that ISO-MAX...
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Old 05-15-2009   #286
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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.... Uh, ok, how about a merely-average-sound-reinforcement guy?

Sorry about that... Just another thing that makes you special, Chad.

Hey, I never heard back about that ISO-MAX...
I'm just giving you a little shit, just goofing around It's weekend-eve!

I'll talk to that guy and see if he has his issue solved, I'm certaint he ISO-MAX will do what he wants it to.

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Old 05-15-2009   #287
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I left my rears in and when i first put subs in, i noticed that the subs distorted the rear speakers(both using same air space of the trunk). So i took them out and everything sounds alot better now
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Old 05-15-2009   #288
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Taste and preference are different.


Rear speakers - unless carefully controlled with time delay, crossover, and amplitude - ruin the front stage, and therefore the image, and therefore the stereo effect.


I would suspect that majority of the people who use rear fill do not use any processing at all. If that was the definition of rear fill I'd certainly run like hell. Those types of installs deserve heavy critique. But a few individuals have piqued my interest based on their theories on how to properly tune the setup and with my nieces staying with me through the summer, it makes sense to try out some of these ideas (werewolf's old threads I think?).

I can't say I'm educated on car audio but I do understand the idea behind hifi. With that...rear fill seems to only makes sense if you're attempting to fix whatever is lacking with your installation in the front. But, ironically, since rear speakers add so much complexity to the setup, simply adding those man hours to reconcile the installation up front would make more sense. Manipulating multipe sound sources doesn't sound like fun or easy. I can appreciate the attitude that's so far against it...

...but is it possible to tune rear fill to support the fronts correctly? Worst case I'll just use different settings for when the kids are in the back seat.

Was this a hot topic prior to DIYMA becoming a sponge for new guys like me?

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Old 05-15-2009   #289
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I posted this a couple times....but in my car as in most I am against the door. The left front is very near my knee. Even the pillar would be in front of my shoulder. I hardly call that to my left, so a left rear can pull the channel back to my left, and not in front of me as without the rear. The right is ok, but the left is in front of me IMO and I don't want a center channel or I might as well put a center dash speaker in and forget the rest. To me it is getting a left and right, not a center and right. This provides a much nicer stage that has some width. I don't seem to have the T/A issues you guys have, though this car the front and rear are very close to the same distance to ear. In fact I shut it off a while back and have been playing with the BBE just to see what it was.

Now I do prefer the sound of headphones the best, due to the wide stage and of course the real ones block other sounds too. But I never have time to use them and just like to make the car sound more like that as a preference/goal/standard/etc., when it comes to the mid/highs. When it works right the left sounds like it is outside the side glass; left is left and right is right.

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Old 05-15-2009   #290
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Taste and preference are different.

Stereo by definition has a solid image in the recording. It is already defined - we don't get to argue about that.

Recreating that image requires a front stage. It's how our ears work. We don't get to argue about that.

Rear speakers - unless carefully controlled with time delay, crossover, and amplitude - ruin the front stage, and therefore the image, and therefore the stereo effect.

And the rationalization most often put forth is, "but I like it better"?

Fine, like it, this is America, you can like what you want - but don't pretend to be a hi-fi enthusiast. If the only thing you care about is tonality and clarity, but you don't care about imaging, then you sound like a sound reinforcement guy to me.
What's interesting is that even though you ended your early sentences with "we don't get to argue about that", you didn't end your statement about being a hi-fi enthusiast with "we don't get to argue about that". That's because...we get to argue about that.

What I'm saying is that your definition of "hi-fi" is probably quite a bit different from a lot of other peoples' definitions. You apparently believe reproducing a stereo image is paramount. Others (some of whom have disappeared from this forum...) have been quite vocal in this forum about their disdain for "stereo".

In other words, we CAN argue about that.
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Old 05-15-2009   #291
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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What's interesting is that even though you ended your early sentences with "we don't get to argue about that", you didn't end your statement about being a hi-fi enthusiast with "we don't get to argue about that".
No, it's not really that interesting.

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What I'm saying is that your definition of "hi-fi" is probably quite a bit different from a lot of other peoples' definitions. You apparently believe reproducing a stereo image is paramount.
Unwarranted assumption. I don't think that producing a stereo image is paramount. I think that IGNORING the stereo image is ridiculous.

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Others (some of whom have disappeared from this forum...) have been quite vocal in this forum about their disdain for "stereo".
l:
So there is more than one person who doesn't like stereo. Great. Get enough of you together and you can get your desire for mono protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I think this sort of position is similar to the "everyone wants to go to heaven, no one wants to die" line... until you buy mono amps and run everything in mono, I'm not taking your stated position seriously.

Now, I will explain where one of my biases is. With customers who listen to nothing but electronic music, especially techno and house and club music, I recommend that they ignore imaging. They need more output and more midbass impact, they don't need image.

But if you only listen to one kind of music, I believe that you will eventually grow out of it. And when you do, you will appreciate stereo.
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Old 05-15-2009   #292
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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No, it's not really that interesting.



Unwarranted assumption. I don't think that producing a stereo image is paramount. I think that IGNORING the stereo image is ridiculous.



So there is more than one person who doesn't like stereo. Great. Get enough of you together and you can get your desire for mono protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I think this sort of position is similar to the "everyone wants to go to heaven, no one wants to die" line... until you buy mono amps and run everything in mono, I'm not taking your stated position seriously.

Now, I will explain where one of my biases is. With customers who listen to nothing but electronic music, especially techno and house and club music, I recommend that they ignore imaging. They need more output and more midbass impact, they don't need image.

But if you only listen to one kind of music, I believe that you will eventually grow out of it. And when you do, you will appreciate stereo.
I can't really make much sense of this post. You vehemently maintain that the stereo image is the bee's knees, but you acknowledge that there are some musical genres that don't place much emphasis on it. Are you willing to accept, then, that some recordings (for whatever reason) rely more heavily on the stereo effect than others? And that if a customer's tendency is to mostly listen to the ones that don't rely on it as heavily, then he might be better off prioritizing things differently from what another customer might?

Really, my only point in this entire thread can be boiled down to four words: "To each his own." Lots of you are getting way too up in arms trying to defend the notion of a single approach to car audio. I think you'd do yourselves a favor by thinking outside the box a little more. My two cents anyway.
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Old 05-15-2009   #293
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I don't think anyone here is running rear fill because they beleive mono is better.

99% of forum users that are arguing for rear fill without proper processing are simply looking for more volume, or compensating for something missing from their front stage.

The people that consciously want to elimate stereo separation are few. In fact, a lot of the arguing for rears was in favor of more channels of separation being desireable, not less.

People just don't seem to get it that if you add rear speakers, you are not getting any more, or different sound than properly done front speakers. The sound is just eminating from the wrong side of the car, and is a complete duplicate of what's already coming from the front of the car.

The people running rear fill often think they are acheiving a surround type effect.

Nothing could be further from the truth. You are in fact destroying any sense of depth, imaging, or surround that is available from a 2ch recording.

It comes down to educating people and letting them hear the difference with a "trained ear".


Also, more often than not, the people eliminating rear fill are already "Thinking outside the box" Those that are proponents of rear fill are often stuck in their box, so stuck on what they are used to that they are unwilling to try front stage only.

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Old 05-15-2009   #294
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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I think you'd do yourselves a favor by thinking outside the box a little more.
That's how I feel too. I'm pretty certain that F and R speakers are "the box", though
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 View Post
I don't think anyone here is running rear fill because they beleive mono is better.

99% of forum users that are arguing for rear fill without proper processing are simply looking for more volume, or compensating for something missing from their front stage.

The people that consciously want to elimate stereo separation are few. In fact, a lot of the arguing for rears was in favor of more channels of separation being desireable, not less.

People just don't seem to get it that if you add rear speakers, you are not getting any more, or different sound than properly done front speakers. The sound is just eminating from the wrong side of the car, and is a complete duplicate of what's already coming from the front of the car.

The people running rear fill often think they are acheiving a surround type effect.

Nothing could be further from the truth. You are in fact destroying any sense of depth, imaging, or surround that is available from a 2ch recording.

It comes down to educating people and letting them hear the difference with a "trained ear".


Also, more often than not, the people eliminating rear fill are already "Thinking outside the box" Those that are proponents of rear fill are often stuck in their box, so stuck on what they are used to that they are unwilling to try front stage only.
This is the classic strawman argument though. You're talking about your conception of what many of the rear fill proponents out there like. And you might be right about what a lot of people ARE trying to achieve. But you're not actually addressing the stuff that people IN THIS FORUM have said regarding rear fill. I can't really argue with what you say in the above. I agree, a lot of folks are using it to try to compensate for some other shortcoming. But some aren't. And it might be more useful to address THOSE people instead, you know?
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Old 05-15-2009   #296
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

But i thought i was, by talking about people who prefer mono...
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Old 05-15-2009   #297
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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But i thought i was, by talking about people who prefer mono...
So did I.

See, this is classic misuse of the "strawman argument" defense. lol


Seriously. I don't see too many in this thread as of late arguing that we should be running rear fill with proper processing.

I think the recent contributors to the other side of the argument are doing exactly as I say they are.

Sorry, no attacking strawmen for me...

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Old 05-15-2009   #298
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Personally...I don't plan on trying it unless I have the ability to process. If you don't process the sound it's kind of like reaching around your elbow to scratch your ass?...

I've heard too many people do it improperly and it makes me want to drop out of the car door sideways while going down the interstate. I can not stand it when people throw in aftermarkets with NO idea of how horrible their install sounds.

It's even worse when you help them out...only to come back two weeks later and find they've changed all the settings again. (sigh).

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Old 05-16-2009   #299
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 View Post
So did I.

See, this is classic misuse of the "strawman argument" defense. lol
I was talking to you, not him. I quoted your post and everything. So I don't know where the confusion is coming from.

Quote:
Seriously. I don't see too many in this thread as of late arguing that we should be running rear fill with proper processing.

I think the recent contributors to the other side of the argument are doing exactly as I say they are.

Sorry, no attacking strawmen for me...
Ok, well I'll let you continue talking to those people. Don't bother addressing my points or anything. Have fun.
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Old 05-16-2009   #300
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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I was talking to you, not him. I quoted your post and everything. So I don't know where the confusion is coming from.



Ok, well I'll let you continue talking to those people. Don't bother addressing my points or anything. Have fun.
What points have you made? That mono is preferable? That stereo is ghey?

I'm missing your big picture here. The fact that you still run front stage (in stereo I assume) and no rear fill says that your argument is pretty empty.

Until you go on trying to change the worlds recording process, and eliminate stereo, it's time to let it go. Stereo is here, mono is not. People prefer channel seperation, and imagining cues so much that surround has evolved to 5.1 channels, and then some! This gives people imaging cues coming even from behind them! So if you beleive that mono is superior in some regard, you would be in the minority.

People that prefer stereo to mono, have no business using unprocessed rear fill. Processed rear fill that does not sound like it's coming from the rear is a whole different animal. I really don't think anyone here was discussing that too much.

So what other points have you made that i missed?

I saw someone else bring up the fact that the left speaker is right on top of you, so "it's not really left". In actuality, which T/A and the signal it plays, it's still seperated enough from the right to be a left speaker. If you were at home listening to your stereo, and you sat in the middle, but reached over to a table off to the left to grab your drink, at what point does that left speaker stop being left? It doesn't, it's still playing the left sound.

Fill me in man. What wisdom of yours am I not addressing?

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