View Poll Results: Do you use rear fill?
Yes 437 41.58%
No 614 58.42%
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Old 03-07-2007   #26
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8675309 View Post
I have used rear fill in a large vehicle just to help fill in some of the gap. I usually cross from 3500 down and use some form of attenuation on it. My preference is not to use it at all if I dont have too.

I have a friend that is nuckin futs about rear fill. He thinks you get surround sound with a stereo signal running all speakers. I got him a set of nice comps for his truck and cheap coax for the rear. He put the comps in the rear and the coax's in the front!? He thinks it is the shit. I asked him if he listens to his home or computer speakers turned away from them. His response was I like my sound that way. I want it comming from the back.

What a tard
I guess he's one of those oddballs that likes to go to concerts with his back faced to the stage.

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Old 03-07-2007   #27
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

[QUOTE=werewolf;101641] a delayed, bandlimited, L-R difference signal? QUOTE]


Do you use this method in your car? What equipment do you use? Most of the time the only place you see this is in large areas.

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Old 03-07-2007   #28
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Warewolf isn't Sony's Hall sound mode on home theatre equipment essentially a delayed stereo sound for music. I noticed that on hall mode the rear spekers only get turned on (front on just like stereo) and they have a delay effect. It sound like poop imo but maybe other manufacturers have a way arround this.

In car it would be a nighmare to tune it properly even if you had all the right equipment. rear woofers firing at the rear windshield come to mind. I'm guessing you would also have to have a somewhat matched rear stage/front stage. How would I match my 4 way front....ahh

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Old 03-07-2007   #29
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
Warewolf isn't Sony's Hall sound mode on home theatre equipment essentially a delayed stereo sound for music. I noticed that on hall mode the rear spekers only get turned on (front on just like stereo) and they have a delay effect. It sound like poop imo but maybe other manufacturers have a way arround this.

In car it would be a nighmare to tune it properly even if you had all the right equipment. rear woofers firing at the rear windshield come to mind. I'm guessing you would also have to have a somewhat matched rear stage/front stage. How would I match my 4 way front....ahh
x2 on the hall sound sounding like pooh

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Old 03-07-2007   #30
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I don't think you'd have to "voice Match" front and rear. in a concert hall the reflections are so different from the initial sound. That's what gives each room its own distinct character. I'd try various cheap small mids -

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind....4944&pid=1902
Several of the Goldwoods come to mind.

I knew a guy who used to use his Boss digital Delay pedal (for guitar) in his car. There are plenty of reasonably priced delays for proaudio/guitar. For some fun you could pick up a dan-electro pedal. Some of these are even 12vdc already. I've often thought of putting in an Alesis Nanoverb.

If you use an amps HP set high and add an inductor or passive line level xover to attenuate the highs I'd think you could throw together a neat toy cheap. Maybe I'll do this while I'm still in a junker.
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Old 03-07-2007   #31
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8675309 View Post
I have used rear fill in a large vehicle just to help fill in some of the gap. I usually cross from 3500 down and use some form of attenuation on it. My preference is not to use it at all if I dont have too.

I have a friend that is nuckin futs about rear fill. He thinks you get surround sound with a stereo signal running all speakers. I got him a set of nice comps for his truck and cheap coax for the rear. He put the comps in the rear and the coax's in the front!? He thinks it is the shit. I asked him if he listens to his home or computer speakers turned away from them. His response was I like my sound that way. I want it comming from the back.

What a tard
Wow... is your friend my brother-in-law?

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Old 03-07-2007   #32
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Not to further confuse the topic, but would you say that some rear speaker locations are better than others? For example, would you use rearfill in the rear doors vs the rear deck?


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Old 03-07-2007   #33
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

i completely agree that a well executed rear fill makes the apparent stage wider and deeper or simply bigger overall. i'm really confused by L-R difference signal? are you just being fancy for stereo?

i'm glad you explained the precedence effect... i always had that as an idea of what you had to accomplish with TA but it's good to know specifics now

with all that said i dont run rear fill right now because i dont have the processing power. i have considered it for a while because my stage has no real depth from low mounted drivers imo, and i dont think it will improve when i move my full-rangers up to the pillars.

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Old 03-07-2007   #34
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kappa546 View Post
i completely agree that a well executed rear fill makes the apparent stage wider and deeper or simply bigger overall. i'm really confused by L-R difference signal? are you just being fancy for stereo?

i'm glad you explained the precedence effect... i always had that as an idea of what you had to accomplish with TA but it's good to know specifics now

with all that said i dont run rear fill right now because i dont have the processing power. i have considered it for a while because my stage has no real depth from low mounted drivers imo, and i dont think it will improve when i move my full-rangers up to the pillars.
The "L-R difference" signal is really just that : the algebraic difference between the left and right signals. Sometimes it's called the "ambience" or "surround" component of the original 2-channel source.

Consider a largely mono signal, like voice (in most recordings, certainly not all). A mono signal will have about the same level in the left and right channels ... and will therefore disappear in the difference So immediately we recognize a HUGE difference bewteen standard, L and R rear-fill and a rear-fill signal constructed from the L-R difference : one will have the main vocal in the rear, the other will not Perhaps that alone is a big incentive to resist lumping all rear-fill possibilities together?

Anyway, check the link i posted earlier for more about L-R difference signals, and how to construct and manipulate them without using PL II, Neo:6 or Logic7.
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Old 03-07-2007   #35
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

He's not being fancy for stereo. You should read it as an equation:

(L signal)-(Right signal)=Difference Signal

Or to put it another way: The end state signal is the delta between the Left and Right signals.
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Old 03-07-2007   #36
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Doh... Jeff beat me to it. Sry.
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Old 03-07-2007   #37
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

The only way i can see rear fill implement even half decent in my car.....2dr hatch, scion tC.......would be to run the front stage as is now, but with a small set of full range drivers, TB 3-4"ers come to mind, small, yet put them at 1/3 of the overall front volume. This would add a slight ambience to the car while allowing the frontstage to give all staging cues, etc. That is as long as the rear signal is contoured and eq'd flat as well as the front, to keep the ear from jumping from front to back, dependant on peaks/nulls.

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Old 03-07-2007   #38
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Itís like this you can process your way to heaven. But if a person stands in front of you and talks to you face to face do you want the echo coming from the rear? When a person plays music in front of you it sounds nice. If they play behind you, you turn around and listen. If you went to a live unplugged show do you have a band in front and a second band in the back playing 20 ms behind? No you donít. I am not saying you cannot achieve a good sound stage with rear fill. But I honestly believe that if you spend the time and money in the front you can achieve the best sound stage in a vehicle. The only time I use rear fill is to fill the rear in a large vehicle mainly for the rear passenger.

Just my opinion and my $.02

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Old 03-07-2007   #39
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I'm in the minority, but I like a faint amount of rear fill in my car (and home).

When I turn my head to check my blind spots (etc) I don't want the music volume and clarity to drop. I like the sound to feel omnipresent. I'll sacrifice the perfect stage for that feeling.

In my home studio I have my KRK's toe'd in so they have that perfect sweet spot for mixing and mastering, and it sounds fantastic.... In fact I get shivers down my spine with the right material. But, for my home speakers I often set the receiver on multichannel stereo (5.1 sound). This is a dry preset where all the speakers are playing the same material (slight T/A but no effect), and is best for those times when I'm moving about and can't sit still in that sweet spot.

Its all personal, and I don't mind being the devils advocate.
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Old 03-07-2007   #40
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I'd be a bigger fan of "rear fill" if most music was recorded that way, but since it isn't. I prefer to listen to it as intended, in 2 channel stereo.

Besides, my biggest concern is tonal accuracy, that rates number #1 with me. All the speakers in the world, whether in front or behind you won't help if your system is inaccurate tonaly.
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Old 03-07-2007   #41
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

the only reason i would consider rear fill would be if i had rear seat passengers often.(more than once a week)
and if i did have them, i would most likely use a 6 channel amp. i would use 4 channels for the front stage and 2 for the rear. then i would buy coaxial speakers for the rear passengers.( i would also make sure i could turn off or fade the rear speakers out)
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Old 03-08-2007   #42
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8675309 View Post
Itís like this you can process your way to heaven. But if a person stands in front of you and talks to you face to face do you want the echo coming from the rear? When a person plays music in front of you it sounds nice. If they play behind you, you turn around and listen. If you went to a live unplugged show do you have a band in front and a second band in the back playing 20 ms behind? No you donít. I am not saying you cannot achieve a good sound stage with rear fill. But I honestly believe that if you spend the time and money in the front you can achieve the best sound stage in a vehicle. The only time I use rear fill is to fill the rear in a large vehicle mainly for the rear passenger.

Just my opinion and my $.02
I like it when I can almost feel the artist's spit on my face With staging tweeters and weird background fill I would feel like I'm shopping in the mall to be honest.

I agree it would make for some interesting setups but I could only handle it for a few songs then I would go back to a solid stereo stage. Each with their preferences I guess.

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Old 03-08-2007   #43
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

only for rear seat people or if im watching a movie otherwise they are turned off..

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Old 06-06-2007   #44
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Can I vote yes and no? I currently have one 5 1/4" coaxial in the rear passenger door, and no speaker in the rear driver side door... Hows that for a good stage.

-soon to be running w/ no rear fill-
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Old 06-06-2007   #45
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Old 06-06-2007   #46
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I'm gonna nominate myself as having the best rear fill on DIYMA:

Morel Integra 6.5" Coaxials run off a Phoenix Gold MS275

Who can top that?

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Old 06-06-2007   #47
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellippe View Post
I'm gonna nominate myself as having the best rear fill on DIYMA:

Morel Integra 6.5" Coaxials run off a Phoenix Gold MS275

Who can top that?

I can ..... because I use ZERO rear fill
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Old 06-06-2007   #48
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellippe View Post
I'm gonna nominate myself as having the best rear fill on DIYMA: Morel Integra 6.5" Coaxials run off a Phoenix Gold MS275

Who can top that?
Hmmm. DLS R964 running of two channels on Audison LRx 4.1k. And yes, I like rear-fill very faint in the background and delayed to create reverb.

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Old 07-01-2007   #49
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I use a set of Boston 5.4 components controlled with my fader,I like them there however they are NOT prominent.Since I can do a simple on/off comparison with the rear speakers,I have found I like them there, always have, always will, why am I wrong for liking them? Damn me and my "opinions".
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Old 07-01-2007   #50
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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I use a set of Boston 5.4 components controlled with my fader,I like them there however they are NOT prominent.Since I can do a simple on/off comparison with the rear speakers,I have found I like them there, always have, always will, why am I wrong for liking them? Damn me and my "opinions".
If you get a chance, delay them beyond the Haas Effect (Precedence Effect, about 15~20 msec), maybe even play with L-R difference ... a whole new world will open up to you, beyond simple (attenuated) rear fill
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