IM A HARD CORE 3CH FAN. NO REAR FILL EVER. WHY DO YOU THINK EVERY MAJOR WINING CAR IS SET UP THAT WAY. WHAT ABOUT DESTRUCTIVE INTERFEARANCE (YOUR BACK SPEAKERS AND FRONT WILL NEVER DO THE SAME THING AT THE SAME TIME) IM A RETAILER AND TELL CUSTOMERS WHY SPEND 200 ON FRONT SPEAKERS AND 200 ON REAR AND THROUGH A FOUR CHANNEL AT 75x4 ON THEM AND HAVE HO-HUM SOUND. IF YOU SPENT 400 ON THE FRONT AND BRIDGED THAT amp AT 150X2 IT WILL SOUND AWSOME . JEFF MEECE MECP TOP 100 INSTALLER
CAN YOU SAY THAT AGAIN LOUDER, I CAN BARELY HEAR YOU.
The pleasure of what we enjoy is lost by wanting more. - fortune cookie
Sorry about the caps lock everybody! didnt want to piss any body off , my only point about being in retail is its hard to tell people less is more .
dont mistake this site (or some of this site) as being the typical load your car up with speakers just to fill the car with sound people.
When we discuss rearfill we are talking about using acoustic crosstalk/Hass effect/ and propper install to utilize rear fill to widen the stage and get ambiance(sp?) while keeping a localized front stage.
I tried, and on several occasions too and it always pulls the music backwards for me making it unbearable to listen to without messing up the balance in favor of the front comps.........
I have Zapco Iforce's 6.5 inch in the back with a 200 cut0off. I'm not sure why. The installer had put it on a through so the tweeters were in my ears and louder than the Morel's in the front so I low-passed 'em and they haven't bothered me. However, I am here to get it dialed in. I'm on my own so....don't listen to me. Telling me what to do would be more accurate.
I'm not confident this technique can be used to enhance width. Seems to have a greater effect on depth than width.
You would need to listen to my vehicle to be the judge of that.
Ge0
Alpine, Zapco, Scanspeak, Image Dynamics, Critical Mass
Life lesson #1) En boca cerradas no entra moscas! (loose translation: sometimes it is best to keep your fuggin mouth shut and listen)
I'm not confident this technique can be used to enhance width. Seems to have a greater effect on depth than width.
Find some music known to have an exceptionally wide stage. Keep you rear fill set exactly as it is now. Memorize the stage boundaries. Now, flip the phase of both rears 180 degrees. I did this the other night. The stage noticably increased in width and went beyond the boundaries of my vehicle However, this was at the cost of some depth. I really like the depth enhancement so I switched it back for now.
There has to be a way to have your cake and eat it too...
Ge0
Alpine, Zapco, Scanspeak, Image Dynamics, Critical Mass
Life lesson #1) En boca cerradas no entra moscas! (loose translation: sometimes it is best to keep your fuggin mouth shut and listen)
Alpine, Zapco, Scanspeak, Image Dynamics, Critical Mass
Life lesson #1) En boca cerradas no entra moscas! (loose translation: sometimes it is best to keep your fuggin mouth shut and listen)
IM A HARD CORE 3CH FAN. NO REAR FILL EVER. WHY DO YOU THINK EVERY MAJOR WINING CAR IS SET UP THAT WAY. WHAT ABOUT DESTRUCTIVE INTERFEARANCE (YOUR BACK SPEAKERS AND FRONT WILL NEVER DO THE SAME THING AT THE SAME TIME) IM A RETAILER AND TELL CUSTOMERS WHY SPEND 200 ON FRONT SPEAKERS AND 200 ON REAR AND THROUGH A FOUR CHANNEL AT 75x4 ON THEM AND HAVE HO-HUM SOUND. IF YOU SPENT 400 ON THE FRONT AND BRIDGED THAT amp AT 150X2 IT WILL SOUND AWSOME . JEFF MEECE MECP TOP 100 INSTALLER
Please don't make the mistake of thinking that IASCA, MECA or USACi judges have any idea what real music in real spaces sounds like. Because of the confines of the car, perfectly replacing the car's acoustic space with a larger one is only possible for one seating position and one head position if the processor has enough to power to make some really long calculations really quickly. That's coming one day. For now, our best hope is to add the sound of the larger space to the smaller one.
A careful reading of Jeff's post and the link and some thinking will reveal something very important--the dimensions of the car are too small to matter much, once we add the sound of the larger room--we hear the car as the initial sound and the delayed signal (provided it's 20mS or later) as ambience.
The key thing to remember is that the sound of the rear speakers has to be decorrelated from the front. It can't be unprocessed stereo. That's not rear fill, that's rear speakers. The difference signal and the delay help to do that. Providing a front stage that's really wider than the speaker locations requires some additional processing not available for cars yet.
I've competed for the past few years just so I can fight with judges. I love it when they say, "Wow, the stage is deep and the ambience is really cool. The images are well focused and the center image is rock solid. I've never heard anything like that. The only problem is that when I turn my head to the side, I hear something coming from the back. Do you have rear speakers? If you do, you should take them out or turn them off."
To that, I usually reply, "Ever listen to music on something besides a 2-channel system in your living room?"
They usually reply, "I don't have a home system, but my car won IASCA in 1997."
I often reply, "That was 1997. There are more and better tools available today and as a manufacturer of those tools, I'd like to be able to sell them to consumers who want their cars to sound better and who have no interest in fiberglas kick panels, rebuilt dashboards and stilts on their shoes to reach the pedals."
A friend of mine in Italy refers to car audio 2-channelers as the "Car Audio Taliban".
Please don't make the mistake of thinking that IASCA, MECA or USACi judges have any idea what real music in real spaces sounds like. Because of the confines of the car, perfectly replacing the car's acoustic space with a larger one is only possible for one seating position and one head position if the processor has enough to power to make some really long calculations really quickly. That's coming one day. For now, our best hope is to add the sound of the larger space to the smaller one.
A careful reading of Jeff's post and the link and some thinking will reveal something very important--the dimensions of the car are too small to matter much, once we add the sound of the larger room--we hear the car as the initial sound and the delayed signal (provided it's 20mS or later) as ambience.
The key thing to remember is that the sound of the rear speakers has to be decorrelated from the front. It can't be unprocessed stereo. That's not rear fill, that's rear speakers. The difference signal and the delay help to do that. Providing a front stage that's really wider than the speaker locations requires some additional processing not available for cars yet.
I've competed for the past few years just so I can fight with judges. I love it when they say, "Wow, the stage is deep and the ambience is really cool. The images are well focused and the center image is rock solid. I've never heard anything like that. The only problem is that when I turn my head to the side, I hear something coming from the back. Do you have rear speakers? If you do, you should take them out or turn them off."
To that, I usually reply, "Ever listen to music on something besides a 2-channel system in your living room?"
They usually reply, "I don't have a home system, but my car won IASCA in 1997."
I often reply, "That was 1997. There are more and better tools available today and as a manufacturer of those tools, I'd like to be able to sell them to consumers who want their cars to sound better and who have no interest in fiberglas kick panels, rebuilt dashboards and stilts on their shoes to reach the pedals."
A friend of mine in Italy refers to car audio 2-channelers as the "Car Audio Taliban".
Modernize, folks!
YES, SOMEONE GETS IT!!!
Coming from a guy who has achieved very pleasing results using L-R difference signal, time delayed, band limited, decorrelated rear fill.
Ge0
Alpine, Zapco, Scanspeak, Image Dynamics, Critical Mass
Life lesson #1) En boca cerradas no entra moscas! (loose translation: sometimes it is best to keep your fuggin mouth shut and listen)
effects are neat, but 2 channel stereo is still 2 channel stereo.
That is unless you take the time to understand it and implement it the proper way...
Ge0
Alpine, Zapco, Scanspeak, Image Dynamics, Critical Mass
Life lesson #1) En boca cerradas no entra moscas! (loose translation: sometimes it is best to keep your fuggin mouth shut and listen)
Has anybody ever listened to the "Cyborgasm" CDs from the early 90's using Headphones or with a Car Audio System with 2-Channel Stereo "Rear Fill"?
These CDs were produced with what was dubbed "3D Sound". There were two releases in this series. The first was simply "Cyborgasm" and the 2nd was "The Edge Of The Bed: Cyborgasm 2", lol.
The recording technology used was a digitally enhanced binaural mic technique. The CD liner notes or back cover stated that it was intended to be listened to with headphones. I know that a few of Stephen King's AudioBooks such as "The Mist" used this "3D Sound" technology as well and there's also a binaural recording of MOUSSORGSKY: Pictures At An Exhibition (Choral-Concert CD with organ/saxophone/flute/guitar). Label is KlangRaume # 30430 C-39.
With further investigation, I found out that these types of recordings supposedly use Binaural signal processing and/or recording techniques, with loudspeaker crosstalk cancellation, and left and right panning effects.
BTW, Here's just one decent Link to some great Binaural Recordings (not necessarily with "3D Sound"):
I'll probably get flamed for the following, LOL, as the Cyborgasm CD is "Erotica" haha! Hardly what we normally refer to as a SQ Reference disc! IMO, the content of the CDs is pretty ridiculous/cheesy, but the SQ and "effects" are AMAZING, as I describe below.
In the early 90's, when I was installing my second "all-out" car audio SQ system, my next door neighbor was interested in what I was up to, as I was working at all hours of the night and day on my car in my driveway and garage. Once he learned what I was up to, he got interested and brought over a few CDs that he wanted to try out in my system. We listened to a few of his CDs and he couldn't believe how great they sounded, lol. I was smiling, too, lol. It sounded pretty d@mn good without too much tuning.
Then he said, "Hey, wait a minute...I'll be right back!" He came back a few minutes later and said, "I know you'll think this is kinda weird, but you GOTTA check out this CD! I listened to it on headphones and it's a trip, dude!"
So he put this "Cyborgasm" CD in the HU and cue's up a track. Suddenly there's this chick's soft, sexy voice floating around my car and then you hear the "WHOOOOSH" & "CRRRAAAACK" of a bull-whip, lol! As she's working the bull-whip you hear it travel from BEHIND YOU to the Front of the Car and "Crack/Snap" about the location of the Rear View Mirror!!! You really had an overall sense of the size of the room or the "space" because of the ambiance and reflections, too! For instance, you could tell when she walked to one side of the room near a wall or corner, or when she was in the middle of the room, or "close" to you!
At one point in the CD, the woman slowly walks up to you from behind and you hear her footsteps stop just behind you, then she is whispering in your ear!!! Freaked me and my neighbor out, but we were smiling from ear-to-ear from what we had just heard, lol! I was stunned! I had just decided to install the "rear" fill speakers as an afterthought, but now I was stoked that I had put them in, lol. Needless to say, shortly thereafter we were installing a full SQ system in my neighbor's car, haha. But I'll have to say, as amazing as it was, it was a bit awkward sitting in the car with my neighbor listening to that "Erotica" CD, lol! :\
This is all just through 2-Channel Stereo! Not 5.1 or any other type of Surround or simulated Surround-Sound processor! For reference I was using the Sony CDX-C910 head unit through Toslink Optical to the Sony XDP-210EQ "processor" and the 1st Generation of Diamond Audio HEX 600s comps in front and 500s in the rear. IIRC, the rear speakers were attenuated about 6dB (via simple Fader control) and high-passed using the XDP, I think from 160hz or 200hz and up.
Since then I've always kept "Rear Fill" in my installs just to have the option. IME, standard 2-Channel (unprocessed) Rear Fill works in some vehicles pretty well, and not so well in others. I've used it mostly to add a bit of ambiance or "room" effect when needed, but I'd really be interested in implementing the type of processing needed to achieve what Andy, Ge0, and others are discussing here!
I've never had the desire to compete, but I am a musician, as most of my family members are, and I know how a small jazz club or large concert hall should sound when performing on stage, and from the audience as well of course. Sometimes this "ambiance" helps to convey the size or type of the room where the recording takes place. Besides, the kids and other passengers in the rear seats always want to hear the music in the back of the vehicle on road trips, etc.
Sorry for the long and somewhat off-topic post, lol.
But, YES, I DO use unprocessed 2-Channel Stereo "Rear Fill", but on particular recordings I do prefer to listen without it.
Last edited by bbfoto; 06-30-2008 at 05:00 AM..
Reason: grammatical
after doing some research, I am seriously considering using some rear fill to raise my stage... I've got an old set of DLS iridium mids kicking around that I might play with.
I would have to agree with Bbfoto, some cars better than others. Also seems that a speaker with a different response than the front is better. I play with my HT too, some of that processing may work well in a car...but then I'm just not that worried about it. Well not until this system is tuned in better at least. I also prefer stereo sound of headphones, that is largest reason I run rear speakers/fill whatever you want to label it. Why have sound only in front of me when it can be inside my head. In front of me seems more monorail IMO. In the car I have now the rears are a few inches difference in distance than fronts.
Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?
Linear Mode
