Focal Be tweeters, better on-axis or off-axis?

[snaimpally]

Anyone with experience with the Focal Be tweeters, please advise, are these tweeters better when mounted on-axis or off-axis. I had planned on-axis, but metal domes tend to be a bit overwhelming on-axis so I was thinking of going off-axis. Yes, I know each setup is different and it will depend on various factors - I am looking for opinions from those that have actual experience with the Focal Be tweeters. Thanks.

[kyheng]

Frequency response, your height, internal volume/enviroment will decide this for you..... A person says on-axis is better does not means it will sound good to you....

[FrankstonCarAudio]

Try them in various positions and axis in your vehicle.. then you will have an accurate answer.

[cobb2819]

I'm running mine more on axis in billet pods. I have heard them off axis firing into the windshield. Both sound great, but I prefer the setup I have. If you find yourself in Albuquerque, come take a listen. We an unbolt the pods and change positions.


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[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by FrankstonCarAudio

Try them in various positions and axis in your vehicle.. then you will have an accurate answer.

Well yes, trial and error will of course work and I do intend to try them out in various positions before committing, but I am looking for comments for people who have actually heard the Be tweeters to see if there are strong opinions one way or another.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by cobb2819

I'm running mine more on axis in billet pods. I have heard them off axis firing into the windshield. Both sound great, but I prefer the setup I have. If you find yourself in Albuquerque, come take a listen. We an unbolt the pods and change positions.

Good to know - thanks for sharing. Where can I get some billet pods for the Be tweeters?

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by kyheng

Frequency response, your height, internal volume/enviroment will decide this for you..... A person says on-axis is better does not means it will sound good to you....

Did you read the question? Do you have experience with the Focal Be tweeters? Your response is so vague as to be worthless. Of course there are many factors - I am asking for opinions from people with direct experience.

[cobb2819]

Originally Posted by snaimpally

Good to know - thanks for sharing. Where can I get some billet pods for the Be tweeters?

I am working on that, I've got what I understand to be the only set in the US. If you're interested, drop me a pm, and I'll see what I can do on another set. Mine are running active with a 100x4 @ 4ohm amp, and the off axis reflecting set were running passives with the crossblock. They are, from what I'm finding out, some of the most forgiving and tunable tweeters. I can try and get stuckinok to chime in on this thread. He kind of hates me because of them.







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[stuckinok]

I vouche for cobbs post. I have sat in his car and was blown away from his set up. On axis the tweeters are a great combination of musicality and detail. I mean I was absolutely blown away. Start on axis pand go from there. These are not you usual set of metal domes.

[kyheng]

Well, you are right that I never use any BE tweeters..... Anyway, a tweeter still is a tweeter, it will have its sound signature and will/will not sound good... My last part of the reply should able to clear your doubts....
Just say, if person A says on axis it will sound good while person B says off axis it will sound better, which will you choose? This is back to square 1 that you asked a question that are worthless.....

[denetnz]

I believe the answer to your question depends upon how you set your EQ. Start on axis and EQ to taste.

[subwoofery]

Never used but heard a few times.
People tend to prefer off-axis (45°+) when installed in the sails or high in doors.
Never really heard on-axis but have heard 15° off-axis (away from your ear vertically AND horizontally) in the pillars twice...

Off-axis had the widest soundstage - helping in perceived width
Almost On-axis had the most focussed imaging though. Reflection does bring some zing to the sound though...

Kelvin

[Patrick Bateman]

[font=verdana]

Originally Posted by snaimpally

Anyone with experience with the Focal Be tweeters, please advise, are these tweeters better when mounted on-axis or off-axis. I had planned on-axis, but metal domes tend to be a bit overwhelming on-axis so I was thinking of going off-axis. Yes, I know each setup is different and it will depend on various factors - I am looking for opinions from those that have actual experience with the Focal Be tweeters. Thanks.

I seem to have very good hearing at ultra-high frequencies. For instance, my home speakers roll off at 16khz, and I really notice that tweeters which go much higher sound 'airier'.

Due to this, I also find titanium domes intolerable.

All loudspeakers have peaks in their response, but some are better damped than others. For instance, soft domes are well damped.

Other types of material have a tendency to 'ring', such as metal domes. The frequency that they ring is dependent on the mass. Everything else being equal, titanium domes will ring at a lower frequency than aluminum, and aluminum will ring at a lower frequency than beryllium.



To make a long story short - you can likely listen to a beryllium tweeter either on-axis or off.

If you are sensitive to high frequency peaks like I am, you may find that titanium domes sound cleaner off axis. This is because listening off-axis will roll off the high frequency peak.

The diameter and mass of the dome will make a big difference though. Just because one titanium dome sounds bad to you, it doesn't mean they all will.


But having said that, I definitely have a preference for aluminum over titanium.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by denetnz

I believe the answer to your question depends upon how you set your EQ. Start on axis and EQ to taste.

I have to disagree with this, sorry



When a loudspeaker has a resonance, that resonance can be "EQ'd out", but there will still be two problems which remain.

The first problem is that the cone is ringing due to the resonance. This is no different than hitting a wine class with a fork; the ringing will remain for quite some time, even after EQ. (The EQ electronically changes the signal, but it can't PHYSICALLY alter the driver.)

In the pic above, we see this ringing in the high frequency response of the tweeter. See those two ridges in the top octave?

This is why a lot of tweeters sound awful to people with good high sensitive hearing.

If your high frequency hearing isn't so hot, you might not notice. A lot of this varies from person to person.


The second problem with loudspeaker resonances is the resonance at the Fb of the driver. That resonance delays the signal in time, and it can make the music sound out-of-sync or slow. If you've ever put a subwoofer into a box that's too small, and the sound is 'sluggish', then you know what I'm talking about.

But this isn't just a subwoofer problem; it affects the entire frequency range.

Some people obsess over drivers with very light diaphragms, but it's actually not the weight of the cone that causes these issues. It's a combination of the cone weight, the power of the loudspeaker motor, the weight of the surround, etc... IE, you can use a heavy cone and still have a driver that *doesn't* sound sluggish as long as you offset that weight with motor strength.



Also, one of the reasons that a lot of people like ribbons may be due to the fact that they're virtually resonance free, because the ratio of motor strength to diaphragm weight is off-the-charts with a ribbon or planar.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by stuckinok

I vouche for cobbs post. I have sat in his car and was blown away from his set up. On axis the tweeters are a great combination of musicality and detail. I mean I was absolutely blown away. Start on axis pand go from there. These are not you usual set of metal domes.

Just checked the prices on these - looks like they're close to $2000 a pair?

If anyone wants to save a few bucks you might consider a ribbon.

Here's some food for thought:

Steel weighs 0.29 lbs per cubic inch, titanium weighs 0.17 lbs per cubic inch, aluminum weighs 0.1 lbs per cubic inch, and beryllium weighs 0.07 lbs per cubic inch.*

This is the whole reason that I like the sound of aluminum over titanium, and the reason nobody makes loudspeaker diaphragms out of steel. If you want to make a very very very low-mass diaphragm, berrylium is tough to beat.


BUT...

The mass of a ribbon is absurdly low; it's the whole reason they're so fragile. The mass is so low, you can break a ribbon by simply blowing on it.

Basically, aluminum weighs more per cubic inch than beryllium, but ribbon tweeters use a vanishingly small amount of aluminum, which offsets the mass advantage of beryllium.

Admittedly, they're high maintenance, but if you really love the sound of berrylium, you might consider getting a pair of ribbons.


Having said that, I'm pretty happy with aluminum domes, so what do I know?













* http://www.americanmachinist.com/304...se/21682/Issue

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Just checked the prices on these - looks like they're close to $2000 a pair?

If anyone wants to save a few bucks you might consider a ribbon.

Here's some food for thought:

Steel weighs 0.29 lbs per cubic inch, titanium weighs 0.17 lbs per cubic inch, aluminum weighs 0.1 lbs per cubic inch, and beryllium weighs 0.07 lbs per cubic inch.*

This is the whole reason that I like the sound of aluminum over titanium, and the reason nobody makes loudspeaker diaphragms out of steel. If you want to make a very very very low-mass diaphragm, berrylium is tough to beat.


BUT...

The mass of a ribbon is absurdly low; it's the whole reason they're so fragile. The mass is so low, you can break a ribbon by simply blowing on it.

Basically, aluminum weighs more per cubic inch than beryllium, but ribbon tweeters use a vanishingly small amount of aluminum, which offsets the mass advantage of beryllium.

Admittedly, they're high maintenance, but if you really love the sound of berrylium, you might consider getting a pair of ribbons.


Having said that, I'm pretty happy with aluminum domes, so what do I know?

* http://www.americanmachinist.com/304...se/21682/Issue

I have seen the Be tweeters new for around $1200/pair. However, I got a ridiculously good price on a used Be No6 set, thanks to a fellow forum member, so my cost was nowehere near that.

I have thought of trying ribbon tweeters, but the size is a bit daunting for an automobile, particularly a small hatch like mine.

Focal only sells metal dome tweeters. I have heard some of the lower end ones and they do sound a bit harsh. I think in general metal domes sound better in larger spaces than a car. That said, the Be tweeter is supposed to be unlike other metal dome tweeters.

I am quite happy with my Scan Illum 1" tweeters and only bought the Be tweeters on the reccomendation of a trusted friend who said they were the finest tweeters he had every heard - he has installed, competed, and judged and so has heard just about everything out there.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by subwoofery

Never used but heard a few times.
People tend to prefer off-axis (45°+) when installed in the sails or high in doors.
Never really heard on-axis but have heard 15° off-axis (away from your ear vertically AND horizontally) in the pillars twice...

Off-axis had the widest soundstage - helping in perceived width
Almost On-axis had the most focussed imaging though. Reflection does bring some zing to the sound though...

Kelvin

Klevin,

thanks for sharing - that is useful info. The way my friend has set up my tweeters in the past is that the right tweeter is on-axis while the left tweeter is slightly off-axis, thus each tweeter is pointing towards the top of the opposite door. This provides for a good sized soundstage and imaging.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by stuckinok

I vouche for cobbs post. I have sat in his car and was blown away from his set up. On axis the tweeters are a great combination of musicality and detail. I mean I was absolutely blown away. Start on axis pand go from there. These are not you usual set of metal domes.

Hey, good to hear from you! Still remember listening to your truck with the Peerless HDS tweeters and mids back at Dave's Brownique in Dallas a few years back.

[snaimpally]

Originally Posted by cobb2819

I am working on that, I've got what I understand to be the only set in the US. If you're interested, drop me a pm, and I'll see what I can do on another set. Mine are running active with a 100x4 @ 4ohm amp, and the off axis reflecting set were running passives with the crossblock. They are, from what I'm finding out, some of the most forgiving and tunable tweeters. I can try and get stuckinok to chime in on this thread. He kind of hates me because of them.

Nice!! Me want. You have PM.

[UNBROKEN]

Just to clarify, Focal has plenty of tweeters that aren't metal.
When I was auditioning stuff I listened to the Utopia set and the KRX3 set side by side in demo cars at the same shop.
The Utopia stuff almost seemed too soft for me. I'm old and my hearing is jacked so I guess I prefer a brighter tweeter. The Kevlar teeter in the KRX set fit my tastes better.

[cobb2819]

Originally Posted by UNBROKEN

Just to clarify, Focal has plenty of tweeters that aren't metal.
When I was auditioning stuff I listened to the Utopia set and the KRX3 set side by side in demo cars at the same shop.
The Utopia stuff almost seemed too soft for me. I'm old and my hearing is jacked so I guess I prefer a brighter tweeter. The Kevlar teeter in the KRX set fit my tastes better.

This is why I love the TBe tweeter, because you can do just about whatever you want with it, turn it up and make it bright, or turn it down and make it smooth, detailed, and on the warm side.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by snaimpally

Focal only sells metal dome tweeters. I have heard some of the lower end ones and they do sound a bit harsh. I think in general metal domes sound better in larger spaces than a car. That said, the Be tweeter is supposed to be unlike other metal dome tweeters.

I always thought the Focal Ti-Oxide tweeters sounded pretty good, and it's one of the very few pairs of 'conventional' tweeters that I've held on to.

But the waterfall graph that I posted earlier was from a Wilson Audio speaker that used it, and it didn't look too hot.

Not sure if the dome was damaged, or if there's something else going on there.

Zalytron in New Jersey and speaker City in Burbank CA still stock them btw.

[stuckinok]

Originally Posted by snaimpally

Hey, good to hear from you! Still remember listening to your truck with the Peerless HDS tweeters and mids back at Dave's Brownique in Dallas a few years back.

I still remember listening to your set-up and loving it! You will be happy with the focal tweeters. I absolutely love them in the pics above. Simply stunning and impressive.

[Mitsu1grn]

Greetings!

All Focal speakers that are designed for the car are designed to play OFF AXIS smoother than on axis. Why? Because 95% of all installs are done in a door, dash, or rear package shelf. We sit OFF AXIS to every door or dash in every car. So, every driver designed and built by the Focal engineering staff is built that way.

In my personal opinion I would place the tweeters +/- 15 to 30 degrees off axis to the driver/passenger seats and listen to them. Should be very smooth and very accurate.

Hope this helps!

Nick Wingate
National training coordinator
Focal America

[nigeDLS]

As above, the inverted dome seems to make off axis response very good on all Focal tweeters.

I've heard a few sets, and not been impressed with any, but i think that may be the installs and setups rather than the products themselves.

Someone once told me that Focal tweeters tend to have a peak at around 10k, which makes them overly bright when mounted on-axis, but i'm not sure if this is true or not.

Maybe Nick will comment??