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Old 08-16-2012   #1
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Default How to bring sub presence Forward?

Hey all, I havent been on this site in ages but I recently made some changes in my setup and am having some small issues.

I swapped out my old sub (DIYMA 12) for something I hoped would increase output while leaving quality of sound right where it was (amazing), so I went with 3 JL 6w3's. I'm running this off the sub channel of my HD900/5.

Now the issue I'm having is that my DIYMA was impossible to locate. And by that I mean that no one could hop in my car and say, Oh, your sub is behind me in the trunk. It blended so well and was so transparent that it sounded like the speaker was deep in the dash. However when I switched to the 6w3s I instantly was able to audibly locate the subs a good distance behind me.

Now I figure some of this is in the tuning but after fiddling with my EQ, TA and phasing (alpine h701), I was able to blend with my mids a little better but the sub is still easily 'found'.

Any advice? The vehicle is a 4door Toyota Corolla.

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Old 08-16-2012   #2
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

where are they located in your trunk? If they are right up under the deck right by the seat try moving them back toward the rear of the trunk.

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Old 08-16-2012   #3
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

1. Cross the subs at low as possible, use steep slope (18dB or higher).

2. Make sure the mids and sub are in phase, use T/A and/or phase control.

3. The mids should be playing at equal amplitude at crossover frequency as the subs.

4. Rattling and resonances can draw the attention backwards, dampening will reduce this issue.

5. EQ the subs to flat, peaks in response will draw substage backwards as some frequencies will be higher in amplitude.

T/A at low frequencies will be the primary tool to correct staging, since the brain calculates time differences between the ears (ITD) below 1kHz or so. I would measure the system and check the frequency response, this has likely changed with your new setup.

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Old 08-16-2012   #4
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

I tried a few positions: right behind the seat facing forward, behind the seat facing the trunk, and facing straight up at the underside of the deck but nothing seemed to help. I should admit that I haven't tried different positions since I spent a little time tuning so perhaps I'll try some different locations again tomorrow. Moving them further back in the trunk (towards true license plate) simply isn't a good option for me as this would take up too much valuable trunk space that is needed for the wheel of my mountain bike and kayak paddles.

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Old 08-16-2012   #5
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

I left my TA the same since my last sub blended so well but tomorrow I'll try delaying the front stage a bit more to try to bring the subs more forward. I'm sure your right about the peaks in FR response being a major culprite. These subs are definitely a lot louder than the DIYMA and I haven't quite got the FR as flat as I would like it.

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Old 08-16-2012   #6
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

Don't run them as loud, cross them HIGHER (yeah sounds counter intuitive).

Crossing them a bit higher will allow them to work WITH the front drivers. Often times there's a gap there and an audible disconnect.
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Old 08-16-2012   #7
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

You have recieved some great advice here.

Audible placement of the sub stage is mostly controlled by time alignment and phasing. Simply swaping polarity is not generally enough because xover slopes add to the phase 90 degrees at a time. ie 6=90/ 12=180/ 24=360/ 36=90. These all chage where the bass hit is felt. Too little and you feel it in the back of your chair, too much and it moves to your chest. Getting it just right increases the pressure around your body equally and is not locatable without telltail rattles or bad eq settings. Use polarity+xover phase WITH time alignment to achieve that dry bass feeling.

Try settings you don't think will work untill you find the magic combination.
Test 60hz @36db slope, both in and out of phase and see which direction you need to go from there.

Happy tunning.

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Old 08-16-2012   #8
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Default

Assuming there are no tactical cues, try adding 10 ms to your entire front stage. Leave the sub at zero. So if your left tweet is at say 1.5 ms, make it 11.5. Add 10 to every driver after your time align initially. Worth a try and it's free


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Old 08-16-2012   #9
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

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Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
Assuming there are no tactical cues, try adding 10 ms to your entire front stage. Leave the sub at zero. So if your left tweet is at say 1.5 ms, make it 11.5. Add 10 to every driver after your time align initially. Worth a try and it's free
You can go a little longer if you want although it's (the theory) not ideal for LF. Sure does work sometimes though.

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Old 08-16-2012   #10
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassBaller5 View Post
I swapped out my old sub (DIYMA 12) for something I hoped would increase output while leaving quality of sound right where it was (amazing), so I went with 3 JL 6w3's. I'm running this off the sub channel of my HD900/5.
I assume that you ran the DIYMA 12 in a sealed alignment. Are you running those 6W3s in a sealed or vented alignment?

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Old 08-16-2012   #11
 
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

use low xo point at 24 dB/ oct or steeper, set corectly phasing/ ta, set correct level for sub and midbass.

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Old 08-17-2012   #12
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

One important thing is to sound proof the trunk area very well, and eliminate all rattles. I have some recordings where the kick drum slams kind of hard, the sound is hollow and frequently localized to the rear. The other day I turned up the volume, opened the trunk lid and stuck my head to the trunk. It became clear that it's rattles and various knocks that localize the sound, not the subwoofer. I am still working on this. Another important thing is to have a low distortion subwoofer, since non-linear distortions manifest at frequencies well above what's actually being played on the subwoofer. You may also want to play with crossover settings. In my car using 50Hz@18dB low pass results in smoothest, least offending sounding sub stage, but the kick drum punch is not always there. With 70Hz@24dB HP, the punch seems better, but the subwoofer seems a little less transparent or maybe it's in my head. In any case, find the lowest possible setting you can use. This is of course also a function of your front stage. A lot of speakers will not take it kindly to be high passed at 60-70Hz, so you need the subwoofer to fill those frequencies.
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Old 08-17-2012   #13
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

a really good midbass in the door will help too. get some of the bass ACTUALLY up front and it will sound like it is upfront :P

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Old 08-17-2012   #14
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

I'm going to echo Tactile cues again... lean forward in the seat or drop the seatback. Does the bass move forward?

The human mind, being a natural protector hunter/gatherer WILL move sounds around quite well due to tactile sensations.

If I stood behind you and someone else stood in front of you and as they said hi and I simultaneously poked you in the back you would immediately turn around. We are programmed to do so.

Lowering the crossover point will cause you to turn the sub level up. If it's tactile the problem will get worse.
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Old 08-17-2012   #15
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

thanks for all the help guys. Blending with my mids isnt really a problem. Im running Dyns in my door and have no issues getting 70Hz and up with authority up front. My issues all seem to occur below this xover point down to 30.

My first issue is going to be shrinking my box down a bit. The enclosure i built is a wee bit too small and im having issues with the subs overexcurting. Once i get the box dialed down ill play around with all the suggestions given and let yall know the results!

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Old 08-17-2012   #16
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
I'm going to echo Tactile cues again... lean forward in the seat or drop the seatback. Does the bass move forward?

The human mind, being a natural protector hunter/gatherer WILL move sounds around quite well due to tactile sensations.

If I stood behind you and someone else stood in front of you and as they said hi and I simultaneously poked you in the back you would immediately turn around. We are programmed to do so.

Lowering the crossover point will cause you to turn the sub level up. If it's tactile the problem will get worse.
This subject has been beat to death here but this time there are some interesting responses like the one I just quoted.

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Old 08-17-2012   #17
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ou812 View Post
This subject has been beat to death here but this time there are some interesting responses like the one I just quoted.
Some people are immune to it, and it's not hereditary. My dad SWEARS I have subs up front, as does my brother.. I think I do pretty damn good job of keeping it up front but I can still steer it back in my mind. Just removing the seatback a bit moves it forward. does the same for my wife.

Depending on the person there's a time to mass load the seat. Trucks are worse, I also have a single cab Dakota with the sub inches from my kidneys.. It's always gonna be behind me.

We went over the tactile thing years ago here, was some pretty epic ideas in that thread.
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Old 08-19-2012   #18
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Default Re: How to bring sub presence Forward?



Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
Some people are immune to it, and it's not hereditary. My dad SWEARS I have subs up front, as does my brother.. I think I do pretty damn good job of keeping it up front but I can still steer it back in my mind. Just removing the seatback a bit moves it forward. does the same for my wife.

Depending on the person there's a time to mass load the seat. Trucks are worse, I also have a single cab Dakota with the sub inches from my kidneys.. It's always gonna be behind me.

We went over the tactile thing years ago here, was some pretty epic ideas in that thread.

Care to share the link or name of the thread?

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