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Old 04-24-2014   #26
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
when you can mesh this bandpass re-location with the Unity design and get 250 hz out of ID full bodies using a PVC connecting pipe and hide your bandpass boxes under the center console, that would be pretty cool...

what, 2 ND91's per side, about 25 bucks in PVC plumbing, and getting 105 db @ 1watt from 250 hz to 18K, maybe it's a pipe dream?
Actually that's exactly what I'm doing.


In a Danley SH-25, the woofers sit about 24" forward of the tweeter. The midranges sit about 8" forward of the tweeter.

Part of the 'secret sauce' is that the mids and the woofers are in bandpass enclosures. The bandpass inserts a delay. That's why Danley can get flat phase response, with the woofers nearly two feet in front of the tweeter.



Here's the bandpass box in my car. About two feet in front of the tweeter


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-24-2014   #27
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


Actually that's exactly what I'm doing.

p://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5610/dssynergy25vi9.jpg[/img]
In a Danley SH-25, the woofers sit about 24" forward of the tweeter. The midranges sit about 8" forward of the tweeter.

Part of the 'secret sauce' is that the mids and the woofers are in bandpass enclosures. The bandpass inserts a delay. That's why Danley can get flat phase response, with the woofers nearly two feet in front of the tweeter.://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDwfpLY_xYs/U1lspcskZTI/AAAAAAAAIOA/c9EidBoVm6A/s800/IMG_20140422_173545.jpg[/img]

Here's the bandpass box in my car. About two feet in front of the tweeter

would you say that the larger the Le of the driver, the more it acts like a low pass filter, and that filter also creates a time delay that is phase-dependent?

and how does this work?

Linkwitz uses analog electronic all-pass to move his tweeter in the Pluto, to the same acoustic center or point source, as the omni midrange.

is this basically the same thing, but you're now having to either correct for, or benefit from the delay added with bandpass acoustic filtering, and that additional delay that is also frequency dependent?

like, does one cancel the other, can you add delay that rises with the time-shifting variable of a band-pass, using a variable delay design, because most time delay is static, or only works in the time domain and doesn't adjust for frequency and wavelength, or bandpass filter scenarios.
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Old 04-24-2014   #28
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by quietfly View Post
That was pretty punny....
you don't want to know what I was going to say about that bandpass box, looking like a sump pump in a bung-hole filled world...


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Old 04-24-2014   #29
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


Actually that's exactly what I'm doing.


In a Danley SH-25, the woofers sit about 24" forward of the tweeter. The midranges sit about 8" forward of the tweeter.

Part of the 'secret sauce' is that the mids and the woofers are in bandpass enclosures. The bandpass inserts a delay. That's why Danley can get flat phase response, with the woofers nearly two feet in front of the tweeter.



Here's the bandpass box in my car. About two feet in front of the tweeter

Few questions more from my end

* How did you calculate the delay to align it 2' from the tweeter
* Based on the pic it looks like the sound is going to get reflected off the door pads before hitting the listener, doesn't this add more delay and early reflections as well.

Thanks,
Venki
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Old 04-24-2014   #30
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by venki7744 View Post
Few questions more from my end

* How did you calculate the delay to align it 2' from the tweeter
* Based on the pic it looks like the sound is going to get reflected off the door pads before hitting the listener, doesn't this add more delay and early reflections as well.

Thanks,
Venki
Here's how you do it:

1) simulate the high frequency driver in hornresp
2) simulate the midrange driver in hornresp
3) Take a look at the group delay curve of the two drivers

Generally, as you go lower in frequency, the group delay gets longer and longer.

The net effect is that you generally want the tweeters as far from you as possible, because they have very little group delay. As frequencies get lower, it's possible to put the drivers close to you without completely wrecking the phase response.

We know this intuitively. Would you rather have your subwoofer close to your seat, or your tweeters? Which drivers will reveal their locations first?


Here's the predicted group delay of the enclosure. In the two octaves between 150 and 600hz, the delay is about two milliseconds, or 27".

I need to post some of the measurements I did this afternoon. I was able to get a Aurasound Whisper and this bandpass enclosure to 'blend' together by manipulating the gap between the drivers. When all was said and done, I got fairly flat response by putting the bandpass enclosure about 6" ahead of the Whisper. (In my car I'm using a lower xover, which is why I can get away with a 2' gap.)


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-25-2014   #31
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
you don't want to know what I was going to say about that bandpass box, looking like a sump pump in a bung-hole filled world...


That was more in line with what i was expecting....
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Old 04-25-2014   #32
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

yeah i have been talking about doing something like this for a while pat.

the big question is, how does it sound in your car. not measurements, but application?

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Old 04-25-2014   #33
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by quietfly View Post
That was more in line with what i was expecting....
when a thread is already filled with semi-rigid filling of bunghole mass, I don't know if adding on is the right thing to do...



but seriously, it's nice that this concept comes around again.

I had the same ideas back in oh.. 2008, maybe?

If someone could easily explain the way an all-pass shifts phase as well as time, so that you could match the response pattern to null either an inductance of the coil that causes rotation, or the delay inherent in a well-devised bandpass, then it is assumed possible to use analog methods to create a time-coherent, phase-coherent, system in the car, using easy, or more likely, odd speaker locations and time-alignment for just left/right concerns.

Knowing how to do this, is a problem. I just don't have the math or the brain it appears, and/or the schooling, I have to be shown what to do, or how to build the circuit and then I'd have to be shown a measurement of the work, so I can believe that it indeed, is actually true, and a working model.

Someone who is familiar with how speakers tend, or trend, like say a 4" midrange with .4 mH of Le, should rotate the phase about 40 degrees starting from 60 hz and crossing the plane at 2400 hz, then...

see, I just don't get all the various parts of the equation. One might say I don't get any of it, but I believe that this all ties together, I think it may be psychosomatic in that general way, or genetic, who knows...

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Old 04-25-2014   #34
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
when a thread is already filled with semi-rigid filling of bunghole mass, I don't know if adding on is the right thing to do...



but seriously, it's nice that this concept comes around again.

I had the same ideas back in oh.. 2008, maybe?

If someone could easily explain the way an all-pass shifts phase as well as time, so that you could match the response pattern to null either an inductance of the coil that causes rotation, or the delay inherent in a well-devised bandpass, then it is assumed possible to use analog methods to create a time-coherent, phase-coherent, system in the car, using easy, or more likely, odd speaker locations and time-alignment for just left/right concerns.

Knowing how to do this, is a problem. I just don't have the math or the brain it appears, and/or the schooling, I have to be shown what to do, or how to build the circuit and then I'd have to be shown a measurement of the work, so I can believe that it indeed, is actually true, and a working model.

Someone who is familiar with how speakers tend, or trend, like say a 4" midrange with .4 mH of Le, should rotate the phase about 40 degrees starting from 60 hz and crossing the plane at 2400 hz, then...

see, I just don't get all the various parts of the equation. One might say I don't get any of it, but I believe that this all ties together, I think it may be psychosomatic in that general way, or genetic, who knows...

Here is how it works:


When you have a loudspeaker in a sealed box with flat response, it's phase is flat. Companies like Dunlavy use that fact to create big speakers like this that basically act like one large full range driver. The Dunlavy SC-IV behaves like a six foot tall full range driver with response from 20hz to 20khz.


Here is a measurement of my bandpass and a cheap Cambridge Sound Works computer speaker. See how the phase of the CSW is flat from 400hz and up?

That's what guys like Dunlavy are taking advantage of. Put a speaker in a sealed box, limit the speaker to the frequencies that it's flat, and you get flat phase.

If you look at the measurement of the CSW, you'll see that the phase begins to rotate. As we go from 500hz to 250hz, it rotates ninety degrees. What Dunlavy does is that he 'hands off' to the next driver in the array when this happens. So a 5" woofer might 'hand off' to a 10" woofer at the point where the phase starts to rotate.

Now, you might wonder, won't that phase rotation cause a problem? Here's the key: the phase rotation at the LOW end of the midrange driver is exactly the same as the phase rotation at the HIGH end of the 10" driver. If that wasn't the case, this wouldn't work. For instance, if you tried to hand off from that 5" woofer to a 10" woofer that was playing up to 1khz, the handoff wouldn't work. This is because the FLAT response of the 10" woofer would mean that it's phase is flat, and we WANT the phase to be ninety degrees out of phase at the crossover point. The 90 degree rotation of the midrange matches up with the 90 degree rotation of the woofer, and the two sum as if they are one large woofer.

This works to infinity. If you wanted to, you could go tweeter-midrange-midbass-woofer-subwoofer. Dunlavy's biggest were tweeter-midrange-woofer.

So far, so good?

By the way, this exact same methodology is used by a bunch of the big names.


All the Thiel speakers work like this


Dynaudio does this too


And so does Vandersteens. (This is what I am listening to right now.)


If you wanted to do the same thing in the car, you would use locations that looks like this. In the pic above, we have a woofer-midbass-midrange-tweeter-midrange-midbass-woofer array.

The curvature is required to time align everything. Basically every loudspeaker must be equidistant from your head.

Dynaudio doesn't do this; you can see that if you look at the step response of their loudspeakers versus their competitors. It's good, but Dunlavy and Vandersteen are better. To my ears, it makes a difference. I heard Dynaudio back-to-back with Vandersteen in 2013, and that's why I bought a pair of Vandersteens. Dynaudio was good, but Vandersteen was noticeably better in the imaging department.



Sorry that was so long winded. In summary, here's how you do it:
1) Only use drivers in a range that they're flat. How you get to flat doesn't matter, they could be flat out of the box, or flat after EQ. But they have to be flat.
2) When their response starts to fall off, the phase will rotate. At that point, 'hand off' to the next driver in the array.
3) To get a really epic step response and the epic imaging that goes along with it, you're going to have to make all of the drivers equidistant from the listener.


The Danley Synergy horns work on a similar principle, but with a twist, due to the 'bandpass' nature of each driver. I'll get to that.



In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-25-2014   #35
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Forgive my newbness, but just a quick question. "Aligning" the the drivers using a time delay and aligning them physically (within reason, I am not talking one driver behind you and one in front, just drivers within say 2ft of each other or so) would amount to the same thing, right? So you could acheive the handing off of the phase with the drivers not mounted perfectly physically?

I am thinking along the lines of having the tubes from the bandpass box poking up from the dashboard, and the tweeters mounted near them and then using digital time alignment to get the phase handoff right?

Also, I love my Vandersteen 2ci, I have yet to listen to a speaker that would make me want to switch.
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Old 04-25-2014   #36
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

I find that people who are really picky about phase coherence love Vandys and yes not too many speakers image like them. I have heard the 2ce pictured above and they had incredible imaging. My issue was with tonality. I found them a bit dark and laid back in the mid range even more so than the dyns.

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Old 04-25-2014   #37
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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I find that people who are really picky about phase coherence love Vandys and yes not too many speakers image like them. I have heard the 2ce pictured above and they had incredible imaging. My issue was with tonality. I found them a bit dark and laid back in the mid range even more so than the dyns.
That is the other reason I really like them. I find most speakers far to bright for my likeing, and a lot substitute brightness for detail. They seem detailed, but it is all the tweeters, the Vandies are very detailed with no brightness at all. I have been fighting with my car system to get the brightness down and detail up. Even the HAT Mirus I put in my Miata recently (second car, just a simple set up for that one) I end up with the trebble on the head unit turned down to -8 out of 10 (whatever that works out too, need to measure sometime).
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Old 04-25-2014   #38
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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That is the other reason I really like them. I find most speakers far to bright for my likeing, and a lot substitute brightness for detail. They seem detailed, but it is all the tweeters, the Vandies are very detailed with no brightness at all. I have been fighting with my car system to get the brightness down and detail up. Even the HAT Mirus I put in my Miata recently (second car, just a simple set up for that one) I end up with the trebble on the head unit turned down to -8 out of 10 (whatever that works out too, need to measure sometime).
I hate bright speakers as well. The speakers I have heard from Klipsch, B&W, Focal, Paradigm, BA etc were all on the brighter side. Wilson is my benchmark for clear transparent sound but since they cost the earth, I settled for my scans :-).

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Old 04-25-2014   #39
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


Here is how it works:

Sorry that was so long winded. In summary, here's how you do it:
1) Only use drivers in a range that they're flat. How you get to flat doesn't matter, they could be flat out of the box, or flat after EQ. But they have to be flat.
2) When their response starts to fall off, the phase will rotate. At that point, 'hand off' to the next driver in the array.
3) To get a really epic step response and the epic imaging that goes along with it, you're going to have to make all of the drivers equidistant from the listener.


The Danley Synergy horns work on a similar principle, but with a twist, due to the 'bandpass' nature of each driver. I'll get to that.


crazy good post, Patrick.

this is advantage in 2-channel home audio, no doubt about it.

I see what bikinpunk is doing with his HT and it looks like Thiel flagship, circa 2008.

I understand the concept of this now without adding any crossover elements into the phase, and I wonder if that is going to be why the 1st order crossover networks these "phase-happy" designers put into the speakers, are so complex?

we still haven't entertained the delay of a large Le driver, with it's roll-off doesn't it also contribute to the phase rotation?

maybe instead of handing off at 90 degrees, the designers add in the roughly 45 degrees of a capacitor or coil, making a 135 degree, to 135 degree match-up?

I'm very happy to see that it is possible within a 3 way set-up, to get near perfect phase, or what? within 20 degrees from 50 hz to 15 Khz?

that would be all right by me?

so sourcing these special drivers that stay flat from near beaming down to almost resonance, or whatever, is it that difficult, or would just throwing one more driver into the mix going 4 way, do the trick with most off-the-shelf product out there in the Vifa PL line, or Peerless/Dayton price range?

and how does your little one-octave of band-pass low-mids, fit into a 3 way scheme without issue?

seems like your arc of drivers are about perfect save for that one little region that sits on top of the Schroeder frequency, maybe the nature of the bandpass can be utilized in corner-loading schemes, to retain the dynamics of the frequency region without causing issues with location?


this is promising on paper, anyway...
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Old 04-25-2014   #40
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

In my last post, I said I'd try to explain how the bandpass boxes change the phase situation.

Tom Danley doesn't post to this forum, but he does post to diyaudio, so I posted the info over there, in the event that he gives us a few hints. Here's the post:

Understanding Synergy Horn Phase - diyAudio


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-25-2014   #41
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by jdsoldger View Post
Forgive my newbness, but just a quick question. "Aligning" the the drivers using a time delay and aligning them physically (within reason, I am not talking one driver behind you and one in front, just drivers within say 2ft of each other or so) would amount to the same thing, right? So you could acheive the handing off of the phase with the drivers not mounted perfectly physically?

I am thinking along the lines of having the tubes from the bandpass box poking up from the dashboard, and the tweeters mounted near them and then using digital time alignment to get the phase handoff right?

Also, I love my Vandersteen 2ci, I have yet to listen to a speaker that would make me want to switch.
Unless I am missing something (and I may be), it would be theoretically "more perfect" to have the midrange and the tweeter very close together, and use DSP delay to line them up.


The driver overlap on speakers like Dynaudio and Vandersteen and Dunlavy is very very high. For instance, in this Stereophile measurement of the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation, the midrange is only 10dB louder than the woofer at 500hz. And at 70hz, the midrange is only 10db quieter than the woofer.


And this speaker is nearly eight feet tall!

The net effect of this is that sound from the Dynaudio just sound BIG.


The big speakers from Wilson and Focal don't do this. Because they use high order slopes, there isn't a hint of midrange coming from the woofer. At five hundred hertz, the output of the Focal woofer will be virtually nil, as much as sixty decibels down. When you hear midrange on a Focal, you're hearing the midrange driver only. On a Dynaudio or a Dunlavy, you're hearing a combination of multiple drivers, due to the shallow slopes.


Again, a lot of this is going to depend on personal taster. Personally, I was floored by the Dynaudio. It had dynamics like my Gedlee Summa, but the soundstage was just huge, like twenty feet wide and as tall as the room. But the thing that really grabbed me was that it had the articulation and intelligibility I've come to love from Synergy horns.


All of this comes at a cost : you have to sit in the sweet spot. If you stand up or crouch down, the imaging is gone. (They still sound pretty good, they just don't image as well.)

So it's basically a choice of whether you can live with a speaker that only images like a champ in one sweet spot, or a speaker that can't quite image as well, but can do it in a wide area (like the Focal and the Wilsons.)


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-25-2014   #42
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

So theory and measurements aside...how does it sound in the car?

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Old 04-25-2014   #43
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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So theory and measurements aside...how does it sound in the car?
Dunno. I have two Synergy Horns that are about 40% complete, a horn loaded sub that's about 75% complete, a bandpass midbass that's about 75% finished and one more that's about 25% complete.

The plan is to demo this at the show in Riverside in May.


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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Awesome....I plan to be there.
Your location saying Manhattan....do you mean Beach?

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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Awesome....I plan to be there.
Your location saying Manhattan....do you mean Beach?
The location is a goof. I actually live in San Diego.

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Oh Patrick, you so crazy
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Oh Patrick, you so crazy

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

I really enjoy reading your posts Patrick. I'm curious what your thoughts are on combining this new found spacial displacement with the OPSODIS setup to get your mid bass outside the vehicle for a more centered sound stage?

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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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I really enjoy reading your posts Patrick. I'm curious what your thoughts are on combining this new found spacial displacement with the OPSODIS setup to get your mid bass outside the vehicle for a more centered sound stage?
Thanks!

The bandpass enclosure described in this thread inserts about 2-3 milliseconds of delay. That works out to about two to three feet. (One millisecond is 13.5")

So, yes, this works nice for Opsodis. With the midbasses to your left and to your right, the angle is right, but the delay is wrong. (Because they're too close.) The delay thats inserted by the bandpass tuning offsets the fact that the locations that are too close.

I posted a thread at diyaudio using these same ideas to figure out how it would work in a three way setup. (Understanding Synergy Horn Phase - diyAudio)

I also did some sims with dual reflex boxes, but that REALLY made my head want to explode. With a dual reflex box you're basically juggling two delays, one for the front of the woofer, and one for the back.

Ported boxes do the same thing, but in a ported box the time difference is much much larger than in a dual reflex bandpass.

If you juggled the length of the ports of a dual reflex it looks like you could get close to flat group delay in it's passband. But it's hideously complex because there's two tuning frequencies, and your crossover filter adds delay too. AND all of that is frequency dependent :O :O

Long story short, flattening the group delay of a dual reflex bandpass is best left to rocket scientists. Then again, Tom Danley DID work for NASA.


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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

I will do some experiments with dual reflex BP (6th order). I've been wondering if you actually can archive flat GD, high efficiency and low distortion. With some processing and enclosure experimentation it might be possible... I'm always up for crazy ideas lol.

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