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Old 04-28-2014   #51
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

I think you are grasping at straws when you are looking at these home speakers. The whole point of what they are doing is aligning the voice coils of the speakers to be equidistant from the listeners ear. If you put the tweeter on the exact same plane as a mid and a woofer, the tweeter response time will arrive at your ears slightly faster than the mid(s) and especially the sub(s).

This is true time correction from a mechanical standpoint coming from the hypothesis that the sound originates from the coil and radiates out. Considering the speed of sound is somewhat slow, it is noticeable and that is why the $$$ manufacturers do it.
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Old 04-28-2014   #52
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakmazter View Post
I think you are grasping at straws when you are looking at these home speakers. The whole point of what they are doing is aligning the voice coils of the speakers to be equidistant from the listeners ear. If you put the tweeter on the exact same plane as a mid and a woofer, the tweeter response time will arrive at your ears slightly faster than the mid(s) and especially the sub(s).

This is true time correction from a mechanical standpoint coming from the hypothesis that the sound originates from the coil and radiates out. Considering the speed of sound is somewhat slow, it is noticeable and that is why the $$$ manufacturers do it.
True. In a sealed box.
Not true in a bandpass box. A bandpass box has group delay that's 2-10x higher than a sealed box, depending on the tuning frequency and the port length.

Also, with first order filters, which I like to use, offset can make quite a difference in response. I've seen dips that were six decibels deep and half an octave wide disappear completely when I moved the drivers by an inch and a half. This is because the two drivers have a great deal of overlap, so if they're 180 degrees out of phase you'll get quite a null.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-30-2014   #53
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


Here's my oddball solution that I designed for my Mazda6.

The enclosure is basically a miniaturized version of the cabinet of a Kef 107/2. The Kef 105/3 also used a similar setup. There are two woofers in the cabinet. One pushes, one pulls, and all the air exits out of the port. Basically a push-pull bandpass box.

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Do you have some other pictures of your enclosure? Maybe an assembly diagram? Is that MDF fiberglassed to PVC pipe?
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Old 04-30-2014   #54
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by HondAudio View Post
Do you have some other pictures of your enclosure? Maybe an assembly diagram? Is that MDF fiberglassed to PVC pipe?
An illustration would help a lot.

Here's how it's set up:

1) There are three chambers
2) The middle chamber has a port
3) The left and the right are sealed
4) The woofer in one chamber is inverted. It's polarity is also inverted. This reduces second harmonic distortion for both drivers.

So a diagram would look like this:

sealed chamber -> woofer -> vented chamber -> woofer -> sealed chamber

It doesn't look like much, but it was actually very time consuming to build. This is because it's basically a miniature subwoofer. So it's like building a sub, only slower, because the tolerances are tight.

If I was going to change anything, I would make it out of PVC end caps and "tees". This would make everything go a lot faster. Drilling the hole in the center piece of the enclosure took about an hour! I had to cut it with a dremel because a hole saw doesn't work well when you're drilling into a curved surface. A PVC "tee" would solve all of that.

Another thing I did that made it slow to build is that the woofers are bolted to MDF plates. I could have glued the woofers to the enclosure, and that would be a heck of a lot faster. But by using bolts and an MDF plate, I can take it apart later if I don't like it.

If someone built this using PVC tees, PVC end caps, and epoxy, it would come together in about an hour. The downside is that the woofers would be permanently bonded to the enclosure, so you better be committed to it


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 05-03-2014   #55
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

hope to see/hear this sat...
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Old 05-07-2014   #56
 
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Your work s great mate . Keep it on . Lots of stuff to learn here .
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Old 11-18-2014   #57
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

This is fascinating...

In the late 80's to early 90's when I first started doing compititions
and moved up into the higher classes, I quickly discovered that my
extreme low budget system would not give me the image judges
expected in that class car. So, I tried everything I could do get that
wide image with placement. I could get it closer but it seemed the
judges were not happy with just a pillar to pillar wide stage. Near
impossible in a CRX until I heard the Sony XES demo car and saw
where they placed various speakers. I became obsessed with TA,
it seemed to be my answer. In the end it did solve my issues.

I still have a very small car, but your solutions are enthralling. I
would love to hear the vehicle once your finished, so, if you make
your way to the Alabama Coast, or panhandle of Florida do send a PM.

I'm wondering if you have ever made or played around with making
a waveguide/horn with say a 4" component, in a kick panel? If it gave
a better image than the standard volcano style panel?

Cheers,
Scott
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Old 11-21-2014   #58
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Patrick-

Interesting work. What consideration has to be taken with regard to port diameter size and relation to the size of the driver being used? Does it also hinge on the passband? I remember also reading about where a speaker was "relocated" to a different area and then a port cylinder was attached to the front of the enclosure over the driver, allowing the port end (wherever it was located) to be the point where the sound would emanate from.

In your experiment here, does the port diameter limit the frequency response range propagating from the port mouth? Are you simply tuning for maximum spl for the given driver over the intended 2 octave passband, irrelevant of the port diameter?


Thanks, interesting stuff.

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Old 11-21-2014   #59
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
Patrick-

Interesting work. What consideration has to be taken with regard to port diameter size and relation to the size of the driver being used? Does it also hinge on the passband? I remember also reading about where a speaker was "relocated" to a different area and then a port cylinder was attached to the front of the enclosure over the driver, allowing the port end (wherever it was located) to be the point where the sound would emanate from.

In your experiment here, does the port diameter limit the frequency response range propagating from the port mouth? Are you simply tuning for maximum spl for the given driver over the intended 2 octave passband, irrelevant of the port diameter?


Thanks, interesting stuff.
Thanks!

These boxes are simply bandpass boxes, so all the regular rules apply.



When we hear the phrase "bandpass box" we usually picture something that's the size of a large suitcase, but there's nothing stopping you from putting a 3" woofer in a bandpass. Which is what I did.


It allows you to put speakers in some weird locations, like under the seat. In this application, a bandpass has some advantages over a plain ol' sealed box:

1) bandpass boxes have lower harmonic distortion than sealed boxes, generally
2) bandpass boxes can have higher efficiency than sealed boxes

Basically if you're careful, a bandpass box can deliver the output of a larger driver in a sealed box.


Having said all that, a shallow 6" in a sealed box would work about as well

I like to take the road less travelled


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 03-20-2017   #60
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

It looks like Alpine patented something like this:

US6868937B2

"A sub-woofer system with a flat horn for use in a vehicle which is capable of achieving an improved sound reproducing performance as well as an excellent space factor by mounting the horn on the floor of the vehicle. The sub-woofer system includes a flat horn having a proximal end and a distal end where the proximal end is connected to a drive unit. The flat horn has a rectangular cross-section and is substantially uniform in thickness throughout while gradually increases in width toward the distal end. The drive unit is positioned under a front seat of the vehicle and the flat horn is placed on a floor of the vehicle, and wherein an end opening of the flat horn at the distal end thereof is positioned close to an inner front wall of the vehicle so that at least a part of the distal end contacts with the front wall."




In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 03-20-2017   #61
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
It looks like Alpine patented something like this:

US6868937B2

"A sub-woofer system with a flat horn for use in a vehicle which is capable of achieving an improved sound reproducing performance as well as an excellent space factor by mounting the horn on the floor of the vehicle. The sub-woofer system includes a flat horn having a proximal end and a distal end where the proximal end is connected to a drive unit. The flat horn has a rectangular cross-section and is substantially uniform in thickness throughout while gradually increases in width toward the distal end. The drive unit is positioned under a front seat of the vehicle and the flat horn is placed on a floor of the vehicle, and wherein an end opening of the flat horn at the distal end thereof is positioned close to an inner front wall of the vehicle so that at least a part of the distal end contacts with the front wall."



Awesome!
Other pics are great to illustrate the horn




Apparently a brutal change in section in the middle is ok.
And isnít it strange that they patented this? I mean it must be super hard to define a sellable solution for all variations of cars

Horny Froggy...
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Old 03-20-2017   #62
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Apparently a brutal change in section in the middle is ok. And isnít it strange that they patented this? I mean it must be super hard to define a sellable solution for all variations of cars
I don't think it is strange to patent at all. There are tons of patents that get filed that never have any real practical application. It is for protection as much as anything.

And in my mind, if it functions well, it could easily be a salable solution. Manufacture of the horn wouldn't be much, if any different, than the plastic ducting used for routing air for HVAC throughout the vehicle. It is very common for the ducting to be unique to a specific vehicle.


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Old 03-20-2017   #63
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
I don't think it is strange to patent at all. There are tons of patents that get filed that never have any real practical application. It is for protection as much as anything.
Iím not an expert on these, but don't they have to at least start the production process for this patent to stay applicable? (2002/5 here)


Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
And in my mind, if it functions well, it could easily be a salable solution. Manufacture of the horn wouldn't be much, if any different, than the plastic ducting used for routing air for HVAC throughout the vehicle. It is very common for the ducting to be unique to a specific vehicle.
Makes sense, but these pieces are sold by the millions with the cars.
Here it would still be a lot of effort for a small target probably.
(see the regular mid-range car horn market).

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Old 03-20-2017   #64
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Iím not an expert on these, but don't they have to at least start the production process for this patent to stay applicable? (2002/5 here)
I'm not an expert either. But I am sure there are thousands, if not millions of patents that never get anywhere near production. There are even companies that develop/purchase patents just to make money from other companies through licensing deals and law suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Makes sense, but these pieces are sold by the millions with the cars.
Here it would still be a lot of effort for a small target probably.
(see the regular mid-range car horn market).
I am sure Alpine patented this in their role as an OE supplier for auto makers. I doubt it had anything to do with their aftermarket division. Similar to what we've seen with a ton of the Harman patents.


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Old 03-22-2017   #65
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Apparently a brutal change in section in the middle is ok.
And isnít it strange that they patented this? I mean it must be super hard to define a sellable solution for all variations of cars
Oddly enough, "hard" bends seem to work better than "moderate" bends in a horn or transmission line. To get flat response you want all of the pathlengths to be equal. If you use verrrry gradual bends, you can do that. (This is why snail-shaped horns work.) But a "hard" 90 degree bend works too.

Unfortunately, sharp bends can generate obnoxious diffraction.

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Patrick couldn't this be called 'how to make your sound stage wider' if the horn exit was between the door and the seat and right below you head? Similar to what you wrote about in this thread:

Crazy Imaging in a Stock System
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Patrick did you ever try something like that? (car or home)
They describe something that is half open and use the floor/carpet as one side panel of the horn. Seems really strange to me, if not solidly fixed it must be quite hard to avoid leakings all the way up to the mouth.
Also what kind of driver size do you think they had in mind? With this lenght it must be a 6 or 8" max no?

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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchyz250f View Post
Patrick couldn't this be called 'how to make your sound stage wider' if the horn exit was between the door and the seat and right below you head? Similar to what you wrote about in this thread:

Crazy Imaging in a Stock System


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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

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Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post


Wow really cool! I think I missed this thread: Ported midbass and creating phantom sources

How is the final result?

Horny Froggy...
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Wow really cool! I think I missed this thread: Ported midbass and creating phantom sources

How is the final result?
Don't know yet. Construction has been a pain in the ass, but getting there.
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Default Re: New Way to Increase Soundstage Depth

I can imagine!
Next step is to fit a shallow 10 in here?

Horny Froggy...
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