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Old 12-02-2016   #76
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Yeah I've been tinkering with a way to do this with open source, and I think I have it sorted out:

First, we create a mono signal

Next, we create a 'hard left' and a 'hard right'. These two signals are the left channel and the right channel but with the center removed.

If we were doing three channel, we could stop at this point and call it a day. At this point we've turned stereo into three channels.

To get five channels, we create two new channels that are a blend of the ORIGINAL left and the 'hard left' channel. And then repeat the process with the original right and the 'hard right' channel.

We can adjust the ratio in those two channels to increase or decrease the separation from the centre channel.

As noted in the docs, this turns flat two channel into something that's shaped like a horseshoe.

And as noted in the Penteo docs, we're not changing the phase or adding delay. Due to this, it's possible to turn the five channel back into two channels.

Hopefully I'll have the script knocked out tonight. SOX is not user friendly.

Penteo 5.1 composer is only $199 and it works very well!
Just a thought! 😎
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Old 12-03-2016   #77
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage



This script needs to be cleaned up. Seems to be working.

Here's how to run it:

1) Install Sox as mentioned in the previous post
2) Using notepad, create a script using the code listed below. I named my script "prologic2.bat"
3) put the script in your path, or in the same directory as your music files
4) and then run it like this:

prologic2.bat myfile.wav

Sox can deal with a number of file formats, so your music doesn't have to be in WAV. It could also be in mp3 or flac. I've only tried it with stereo files, so I'm not sure how it would behave with a mono or six channel file.

Here's the script:

echo resample to 48kHz and lower volume to avoid clipping
sox -S -c 2 %file% -r 48k stereoInput.wav gain -h

echo create mono channel
sox -S stereoInput.wav -c 1 mono.wav remix 1,2

echo create left channel
sox -S stereoInput.wav -c 1 left.wav remix 1

echo create right channel
sox -S stereoInput.wav -c 1 right.wav remix 2

echo create hard-left channel
sox -M left.wav mono.wav left-plus-mono.wav
sox -S left-plus-mono.wav -c 1 hard-left.wav remix 1v0.5,2v-0.5

echo create hard-right channel
sox -M right.wav mono.wav right-plus-mono.wav
sox -S right-plus-mono.wav -c 1 hard-right.wav remix 1v0.5,2v-0.5

echo create new-left channel
sox -S left-plus-mono.wav -c 1 new-left.wav remix 1v0.5,2v-0.25

echo create new-right channel
sox -S right-plus-mono.wav -c 1 new-right.wav remix 1v0.5,2v-0.25

echo create LFE channel
sox -S stereoInput.wav -c 1 lfe.wav lowpass 120 remix -

echo merge channels
sox -S -V -M new-left.wav new-right.wav hard-left.wav hard-right.wav mono.wav lfe.wav multichannel.wav

echo normalize + make sure it's 16bit
sox -S -V -G multichannel.wav -b 16 normalize.wav

echo convert to AAC
qaac normalize.wav


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-03-2016   #78
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

I know the last few posts were confusing and dry, but I pondered the Penteo and Dolby ProLogic II schemes, and I have some good news:

We can get REALLY close to what they're doing, using nothing but MiniDSP.

This simplifies things a great deal:

1) it means you don't need a Windows tablet for a source
2) it means you don't have to chase down a dodgy processor off of EBay to do ProLogicII
3) it means you don't need to install a home theater receiver in the trunk of your car
4) it means you don't have to process your entire music library using a $500 VST plugin
5) it means you can turn two channel into five channels in real time, using something as simple as an iPod or a head unit as a source


The 'trick' is to look and see what the ProLogic II matrix is doing:

1) the left channel is untouched
2) the right channel is untouched
3) the center channel is a sum of the left and the right

We can do ALL of that in MiniDSP. No problemo.

The only tricky part are the surrounds. Dolby/Fosgate use a mix of the left signal, mixed with an inverted copy of the right, with a 90 degree phase shift. The Posts from Penteo imply that they're doing something like "L-R", but with no phase shift. (This is why Penteo can turn their matrix back into stereo, with no phase anomalies.)

I'm thinking we can do a simple "L-R" signal for the surrounds. "L-R" is just what it sounds like, it's what you get if you nuke the common sounds out of a combined signal. It blows a big hole in the center of the stage. Increasing the volume of the "L-R' component makes the stage wider. This trick is wildly abused by musicians already.

So...

I'm thinking about a simplified surround setup, as illustrated in the pic above. Five discrete channels, produced by MiniDSP, in real time. No tablets, laptops, car PCs or processors.

I think the 'key' to getting this right is understanding how stereo works. Basically the entire system will need to be designed specifically for five channel, in particular the center speaker will need to be a beast, because we want it to handle some abuse, and also be directional enough to minimize interference with the left and the right speaker.

For anyone taking notes, here's the Dolby ProLogic II Matrix. This isn't speculation, this is right out of their documentation:




In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-03-2016   #79
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

I will just leave this here for consideration. Seems to get some good reviews..

Surround Master

Manual

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Old 12-04-2016   #80
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Thank you!

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-04-2016   #81
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage



It's amazing how quickly projects come together when I use off-the shelf parts. My old standby, the Pyle PH612S, works like a charm as a center channel. Be sure to lop off the sides, to make it a better match for the windshield. It took less time to put this together than it took to type this post. TWELVE BUCKS




Of course it's a Synergy Horn


For anyone playing along at home, here's the parts list:

Celestion 4" closed back midrange, $32 at Loudsepakers Plus (same driver as Synergy Horn)
JBL 2408H-1 compression driver. This one used to cost about $80, but it's up to to $150 for some reason. Any ol' ring radiator will work, but this one is particularly well-suited because it's a screw on. If you're up to the task of making an adapter, you could use one of the other BMS drivers. Do NOT use an adapter, they screw up the wavefront


Although this variation is cosmetically the best, I'm going a different route because I want a narrower coverage angle, to reduce the interaction between the left and right channel and the center channel. Stay tuned.

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-04-2016   #82
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I know the last few posts were confusing and dry, but I pondered the Penteo and Dolby ProLogic II schemes, and I have some good news:

We can get REALLY close to what they're doing, using nothing but MiniDSP.

This simplifies things a great deal:

1) it means you don't need a Windows tablet for a source
2) it means you don't have to chase down a dodgy processor off of EBay to do ProLogicII
3) it means you don't need to install a home theater receiver in the trunk of your car
4) it means you don't have to process your entire music library using a $500 VST plugin
5) it means you can turn two channel into five channels in real time, using something as simple as an iPod or a head unit as a source


The 'trick' is to look and see what the ProLogic II matrix is doing:

1) the left channel is untouched
2) the right channel is untouched
3) the center channel is a sum of the left and the right

We can do ALL of that in MiniDSP. No problemo.

The only tricky part are the surrounds. Dolby/Fosgate use a mix of the left signal, mixed with an inverted copy of the right, with a 90 degree phase shift. The Posts from Penteo imply that they're doing something like "L-R", but with no phase shift. (This is why Penteo can turn their matrix back into stereo, with no phase anomalies.)

I'm thinking we can do a simple "L-R" signal for the surrounds. "L-R" is just what it sounds like, it's what you get if you nuke the common sounds out of a combined signal. It blows a big hole in the center of the stage. Increasing the volume of the "L-R' component makes the stage wider. This trick is wildly abused by musicians already.

So...

I'm thinking about a simplified surround setup, as illustrated in the pic above. Five discrete channels, produced by MiniDSP, in real time. No tablets, laptops, car PCs or processors.

I think the 'key' to getting this right is understanding how stereo works. Basically the entire system will need to be designed specifically for five channel, in particular the center speaker will need to be a beast, because we want it to handle some abuse, and also be directional enough to minimize interference with the left and the right speaker.

For anyone taking notes, here's the Dolby ProLogic II Matrix. This isn't speculation, this is right out of their documentation:



Might be a bit OT, but is there anyway with the minidsp that you can send rear channel L-R surround to drivers that also receive a normal signal? It's a bit weird to do this, but in my car I am using some 8" Type Rs to cover 30-150hz. They are stuffed in the rear quarters and fed a stereo signal. They can play higher than 150hz, but it can't be the main signal because it will start to pull the stage back. So can the subs be utilized further with a combined signal of normal stereo and some version of fill or surround?
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Old 12-04-2016   #83
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
Might be a bit OT, but is there anyway with the minidsp that you can send rear channel L-R surround to drivers that also receive a normal signal? It's a bit weird to do this, but in my car I am using some 8" Type Rs to cover 30-150hz. They are stuffed in the rear quarters and fed a stereo signal. They can play higher than 150hz, but it can't be the main signal because it will start to pull the stage back. So can the subs be utilized further with a combined signal of normal stereo and some version of fill or surround?
I can't figure out any obvious way to send L-R to any speaker using a MiniDSP where there are speakers *also* getting left or right signals.

IE, you can use the surround plugin to send L-R, but if you do that, you *can't* send L or R.

Due to that, I have to use *two* MiniDSPs.

I had a couple of ideas of how to work around this:

1) I think if you pre-encode the channels into mono and mid-side stereo, you might be able to turn them *back* into left and right using MiniDSP. If true, then you could produce all four channels with *one* MiniDSP. (left, right, center, and surround)
2) The other idea I had was to *physically* produce L-R in the car itself. To do that, you simply have two drivers in your surround speaker. One driver gets the left channel, the other driver gets the right channel, you invert the second driver, and that gives you "L-R"



As far as doing a *ratio* of L-R, you could do that three ways:

1) using SOX. This would require you to pre-encode everything you play in your car
2) using the miniDSP surround plugin. The catch is that you can't mix, so you'd have to *physically* mix the two, by literally putting the two speakers near each other and varying the ouput of each.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-04-2016   #84
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


It's amazing how quickly projects come together when I use off-the shelf parts. My old standby, the Pyle PH612S, works like a charm as a center channel. Be sure to lop off the sides, to make it a better match for the windshield. It took less time to put this together than it took to type this post. TWELVE BUCKS




Of course it's a Synergy Horn


For anyone playing along at home, here's the parts list:

Celestion 4" closed back midrange, $32 at Loudsepakers Plus (same driver as Synergy Horn)
JBL 2408H-1 compression driver. This one used to cost about $80, but it's up to to $150 for some reason. Any ol' ring radiator will work, but this one is particularly well-suited because it's a screw on. If you're up to the task of making an adapter, you could use one of the other BMS drivers. Do NOT use an adapter, they screw up the wavefront


Although this variation is cosmetically the best, I'm going a different route because I want a narrower coverage angle, to reduce the interaction between the left and right channel and the center channel. Stay tuned.
Shame that a car manufacturer doesn't build something like that into the dash. Probably would add minimal cost to the dash. Plastic dash + plastic waveguide instead of center channel grill.
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Old 12-05-2016   #85
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage





I decided to try a different horn instead of the Pyle PH612. This is the Pyle PH12S. It's coverage angle is about half as wide as the Pyle PH612. This has a few advantages for a center channel:

1) Because the angle is narrower, there will be less interference between the center channel and the left and right speaker.
2) Because the angle is narrower, the on-axis output is higher
3) Because the on-axis output is higher, it makes it easier to crossover from the midrange to the tweeter. Basically the output is higher, so that gives us some flexibility with the crossover point.
4) Because it's deeper, there's room to put the midrange on the TOP instead of the sides. This leaves room to mount woofers on the waveguide, which will allow the center channel to be truly full-range. This will be a three-way Synergy Horn, not a two-way.

On the downside, the horn is bigger, because the depth is larger.


One 'trick' with the mounting plates for the midrange is that I drilled some holes into the horn body. The idea here is that the epoxy will fill in those holes and they'll act like 'anchors' for the epoxy. I learned this from one of my bike forums.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-05-2016   #86
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

The "obvious" way to wire this thing up is using three amps and two miniDSPs. It would look something like this:

amp 1 / mini dsp 1 : left channel, right channel
amp 2 / mini dsp 2 : center channel surround channels
amp 3 : subwoofer

There's a thread that describes how to do this with one amp : Old school passive surround sound

I had high hopes for that, but no dice. I'm using Class D amps and it appears that they'll blow up with this wiring scheme.

This might be a little wacky, but I can't see any reason why you couldn't do the L-R mix right at the loudspeaker.



Polk did this in the SDA, why not do it in our surrounds?

So in this scenario, the setup looks like this:


amp 1 / mini dsp 1 : left channel, right channel, center channel, surrounds
amp 2 : subwoofer

Besides saving $200 in DSP, amplification, and software, it also reduces the number of wires a LOT. That was becoming a real issue in this project. My midbasses are under my seat, and due to that, I don't have a lot of room to hide electronics. Basically my electronics have to fit under my dash, or else I have to run RCAs and speaker wires all the way to the trunk. Which I don't want to do.

To add some detail to how this will be wired:

1) I will use a MiniDSP with the 2x4 advanced plugin. (https://www.minidsp.com/products/plu...dvanced-detail)
While it might not be immediately obvious why you want the "2x4 Advanced" instead of the "2x4", the reason is that the 2x4 advanced can give you a mono channel. I believe that was intended for a sub, but there's nothing stopping you from using it for a center channel.
2) Two of the four channels of MiniDSP will be used for the center. One for the tweeter, one for the midrange
3) One of the four channels of MiniDSP will be used for the left speaker, one for the right

Where things get interesting is that I'll have two additional speakers wired along with the left speaker, and two along with the right. So I'll create the "L-R" channel physically; I'll literally have a left channel in the back with a right channel right on top of it, and the right channel will be wired out of phase. This setup will create an "L-R" signal, but acoustically, not electronically. The downside to this setup is that it's a waste of power, and it requires four surround speakers instead of two. But speakers are cheap; the surround satellites that I intend to use cost under $10 each. So it's still cheaper than buying one more amp, one more MiniDSP, and the software. More importantly, it simplifies everything.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-05-2016   #87
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

I am in the midst of installing and setting up my first 5.1 in a car.

My plan is to use the factory Bose 6-CDHU into an Alpine pxa-h800/RUX combo.

I will have 8x100rms and 2x500rms on tap for power via a pair of JL HD900/5's.

Speakers will be AudioFrog GB10 tweets and GB25 mid's through GB2510c crossovers. Tweets in A-pillar mid's in upper door.

Midbass will be a pair or AF GS693's in the lower front door, band-passed for midbass duty only.

Rear fill will be a pair of AF GS62's in lower rear doors and the center channel will be a single AF GS42 firing up and slightly forward from the dash.

Suwoofer duty will be handled by a single TC Sounds TC1000 15 4ohm dvc with each sub channel going to each coil. Sealed.

Vehicle is a 2010 Nissan Rogue SL.

Any advice you can give of set-up/tuning etc? Any pitfalls to look out for? I'll be tuning with REW and a minidsp mic (I forget the model#). I have never tuned using REW so this will all be kind of new.
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Old 12-05-2016   #88
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by nstaln View Post
I am in the midst of installing and setting up my first 5.1 in a car.

My plan is to use the factory Bose 6-CDHU into an Alpine pxa-h800/RUX combo.

I will have 8x100rms and 2x500rms on tap for power via a pair of JL HD900/5's.

Speakers will be AudioFrog GB10 tweets and GB25 mid's through GB2510c crossovers. Tweets in A-pillar mid's in upper door.

Midbass will be a pair or AF GS693's in the lower front door, band-passed for midbass duty only.

Rear fill will be a pair of AF GS62's in lower rear doors and the center channel will be a single AF GS42 firing up and slightly forward from the dash.

Suwoofer duty will be handled by a single TC Sounds TC1000 15 4ohm dvc with each sub channel going to each coil. Sealed.

Vehicle is a 2010 Nissan Rogue SL.

Any advice you can give of set-up/tuning etc? Any pitfalls to look out for? I'll be tuning with REW and a minidsp mic (I forget the model#). I have never tuned using REW so this will all be kind of new.
I believe Andy and Gary are using relatively similar speakers for their rear surround as the front speakers. They may even be identical.

For Gary's setup, this makes sense; he literally works on movies for a living (check out his IMDB page, it's epic). So Gary can easily demo mixes in the car that are genuine, five channel movie soundtracks.


My application is quite a bit different. I'm not using ANY sources that are legitimately five channel. All of my sources are stereo, turned into five channel.

Due to that difference, the demands on my surround channels are quite mild. I did an analysis of the content of those channels using Audacity, and there'v very very little content in the surround channels.

Here's why that is:
In the Dolby ProLogic II scheme, nearly 100% of the mono signal has been removed from the surrounds. In the MiniDSP scheme detailed above, that rises to 100% removal of the mono signal. I believe Penteo does the same.

Due to the fact that the mono signal has been eliminated from the surrounds, the surrounds can be quite puny.

If possible, I'd put the surrounds somewhere with an unobstructed path to your ears. For instance, I'm putting mine at shoulder level. The reason for this is that these wavelengths are fairly short, and early reflections might cause issue. YMMV

The flip side of this is that the center channel needs to be pretty beefy. In particular, the tweeter of the center channel quickly becomes the weak link in the entire chain. This is because the tweeter frequently distorts before anything else. (This is why I went with a compression driver.)



TLDR: If you're using "real" five channel material for a source, you might consider using relatively large speakers for your surrounds. If you're faking it with Dolby Prologic II or the like, you can downsize the surrounds in a big way, because the mono signal is non-existent or virtually non-existent in the surrounds.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-05-2016   #89
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Just for the record, I do not play movie soundtracks in my car.
I play the 5.1 discreet music recorded for certain motion pictures, that I have access to.
I don't and never will watch movies in my car.
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Old 12-05-2016   #90
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

I know I used to be able to get L-R from a bridgeable amp just by wiring from L+ to R+. Ive done it with amps in the past and ran that signal to the rears. I'm quite certain you could use the same amp and get the center channel by wiring it in a traditional bridged config, L+ to R-. I believe it sounded best with the rears run out of phase with each other. I'm pretty sure that any bridgeable amp can sum or subtract right at the speaker outputs. I dont recall the amp ever getting hot from this type of wiring... I tried this because I used to have an old surround sound home amp and this was exactly how they created the surround outputs. It was litterally a L+ to R+ connection on a stereo amp.

With a c-dsp, you could use the high level inputs. That way you could just invert wire inputs (just flip the polarity from inputs 1 and 2) on 3 and 4 input and then sum in the routing matrix.

Last edited by Rrrrolla; 12-05-2016 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 12-05-2016   #91
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysummers View Post
Just for the record, I do not play movie soundtracks in my car.
I play the 5.1 discreet music recorded for certain motion pictures, that I have access to.
I don't and never will watch movies in my car.
Agreed, I just wanted to point out that the requirements for the surround speakers really depends on whether the source has "real" information in the surrounds, or if it's just derived from a stereo source.

When I was messing around with SOX, I discovered something neat, which is that the AAC file format has support for something like 50(!) discrete channels. Although this is neat, none of the musicians I listen to are using more than two channels. In fact, the music I listen to is basically mono.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-05-2016   #92
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrolla View Post
I know I used to be able to get L-R from a bridgeable amp just by wiring from L+ to R+. Ive done it with amps in the past and ran that signal to the rears. I'm quite certain you could use the same amp and get the center channel by wiring it in a traditional bridged config, L+ to R-. I believe it sounded best with the rears run out of phase with each other. I'm pretty sure that any bridgeable amp can sum or subtract right at the speaker outputs. I dont recall the amp ever getting hot from this type of wiring... I tried this because I used to have an old surround sound home amp and this was exactly how they created the surround outputs. It was litterally a L+ to R+ connection on a stereo amp.

With a c-dsp, you could use the high level inputs. That way you could just invert wire inputs (just flip the polarity from inputs 1 and 2) on 3 and 4 input and then sum in the routing matrix.
I believe that the amp channels in a Class T amp are bridged already. To make things more confusing, my Sure amps are advertised as "T amps", which would imply Tripath. But Tripath has been kaput for years, and my amps have a Texas Instruments chipset iirc.

In the thread here Old school passive surround sound someone mentioned that many A/B amps will produce a bridge signal if you wire them as a passive matrix.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-05-2016   #93
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

This is the 5.1 info from Alpine:

Surround Sound: The Alpine PXA-H800 System Integration Audio Processor supports up to 5.1-channel surround sound from multi-channel and 2-channel sources.

Dolby Digital/DTS: Enjoy true 5.1-channel surround sound just like your home cinema system. You can hear multi-channel sound from movie and music sources in the Dolby Digital and DTS Digital Surround formats. With Dolby Digital, the dynamic range is compressed so that powerful sound can be achieved at regular volume levels. This compression can be cancelled to achieve an energetic sound with even great power, like the sound in a movie theater. This can be set to Standard or Maximum.

Dolby Pro Logic II: The PXA-H800 also provides Dolby Pro Logic II decoding, so you can even enjoy stereo recordings in surround sound. You can choose between a Music or Movie mode. Music mode allows you to adjust the center width which provides the optimum vocal localization by adjusting the center channel position in between the center speaker and the L/R speakers.

Euphony: Euphony makes it possible to enjoy 5.1-channel sound from 2-channel sources. It creates natural surround sound from CD or iPod with wider soundscapes and harmonics. It especially enhances vocal and instrumental quality, for a superior sound field and no listener fatigue.

Rear Mix: This function mixes the front channel audio signal with the audio signal output from the rear speakers, improving the sound in the vehicle's rear seat. This is used in a system where there is no subwoofer and rear speakers can product lower frequency sounds than the front speakers. The Rear Mix can be set to -6, -3, 0, +3, or +6 dB.

Center Bass Split: Turning on this function sends the center channel low frequencies equally to the front left and right speakers. this enhances the overall sound when using a small center speaker. This is used when the center speaker has a small diameter and cannot produce low frequency sounds. You can set the Center Bass Split function to 200, 225, 250, 280, 315, 350, 400, 450, or 500Hz.


These look like some interesting choices…I can't seem to find much info on the 'Euphony' up-mixing.

The bass-split feature looks helpful as well.
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix509 View Post
I will just leave this here for consideration. Seems to get some good reviews..

Surround Master

Manual

That looks interesting, and seems to get decent reviews but appears you would need to add a DSP with 5 inputs that could run simultaneously to be able to time align for a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysummers View Post
Just for the record, I do not play movie soundtracks in my car.
I play the 5.1 discreet music recorded for certain motion pictures, that I have access to.
I don't and never will watch movies in my car.
You should at least catch a drive in theater sometime, especially in CA where the weather is nice enough to do it year round.
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Old 12-06-2016   #95
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysummers View Post
Just for the record, I do not play movie soundtracks in my car.
I play the 5.1 discreet music recorded for certain motion pictures, that I have access to.
I don't and never will watch movies in my car.
Lol, just curious, after spending all day working on movies at the office, can you enjoy going to see a flick on a Fri night?

Quote:
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Old 12-06-2016   #96
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage


Here's the frequency response and distortion of the Synergy Horn posted on the previous page. This is the response of the midrange driver alone.

This performance isn't all that great. I believe the issue is that the ports are a little bit too small. Enlarging them should lower the distortion and flatten the response.

This measurement is with no filtering, except for a 250hz high pass to protect from over excursion.

Here's the response of the compression driver on the Synergy Horn. This is pretty darn good. Distortion is basically nil and the response is great, except for a dip in the very top octave, which probably won't be audible.

This measurement has a first order low pass at 20,000hz. That's to offset the low pass effect of a constant directivity horn, and also to protect the tweeter from over excursion.

Make no mistake about it, this tweeter and horn combination is tough to beat.

With the midranges and the compression driver working in Synergy, it should be trivial to achieve six octaves of response. (300hz-20kzh)
To put that in perspective, the onobtanium horns in Richard Clark's Grand National covered five octaves.

But why stop there?! I got space to burn, and this is going to be a THREE way Synergy Horn. Seven octaves of output from a point source, with efficiency in excess of 100dB.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 12-06-2016 at 02:47 PM..
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Old 12-06-2016   #97
 
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckerfte View Post
Lol, just curious, after spending all day working on movies at the office, can you enjoy going to see a flick on a Fri night?
When you spend 50 to 80 hours of a week on average, in the dark, staring at a movie screen, when Friday comes, your looking for something else to do for fun.
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Old 12-08-2016   #98
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage






I haven't been doing a lot with my 3D printer lately, because my prints have been failing about 90% of the time. (This is something I didn't know about 3D printers; the more you use them, the worse they perform.) But I tried making some satellites out of wood and PVC for this five channel project, and they just looked awful.

So I recycled these 3D printed satellites that I made for a previous project. It turned out really well.

There are a few 'new' tricks here:

1) A few months back I discovered that 3D printed loudspeakers leak like a sieve, and due to that, you MUST make them airtight. I used to use liqud nails for subfloors, a water based adhesive. This time around, I used mortite. The advantage of mortite is that it adds more mass, and it never dries. Basically it behaves like sound deadening material.
2) I've tried using mortite on the *outside* of 3D printed enclosures. Don't do that, it doesn't work. This is because paint won't stick. So this time around, I wrapped the enclosure in fiberglass. This gives you something similar to a constrained-layer-damping enclosure. (To do it properly, you'd add another layer of fiberglass to the mortite that's on the inside of the enclosure.
3) While it wasn't intentional, the fact that the enclosure has no sharp edges means that the fiberglass came out really smooth, which saves me a lot of time sanding and finishing the enclosure. It still needs to be painted though.

Put those two things together, and you have a good looking enclosure that's paintable, airtight, and deadened.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-09-2016   #99
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

The center channel for my system is largely a copy of Bill Waslo's "Small Syns" Synergy Horn. I heard it at Bill's place, and it sounds exceptional.


Bill's speaker is a three way:
1) it uses a Tymphany compression driver for the highs
2) it uses a Celestion TF0410MR for the mids, the same midrange used in the Danley Synergy horns
3) it uses a pair of Faital woofers for the bass. They're 6.5" iirc.

More details can be found in the thread over at diyaudio.

My center channel speaker is set up like this:
1) it uses a JBL 2408H-1 tweeter
2) it uses a Celestion TF0410MR, as above
3) I'm trying to figure out what I can fit for the bass

OK, here's the problem I'm facing right now:

My center channel speaker is starting to fill up the dash in a hurry. Here's a pic of just the horn, you can see how it could cover up the whole center of the dash quickly:



Over at diyaudio, xrk971 documents a way of making a horn using a full range driver at the apex, instead of a compression driver. The advantage of going this route is that it simplifies things, it makes it less expensive, it makes it smaller, it makes it lighter. Here's a pic:



I am wondering if I should go a similar route. My center channel speaker is working nicely, and I am making good progress. But it is getting big.

XRK 971's speaker uses an SB Acoustics SB65 as both a midrange and a tweeter, and a pair of Dayton eights for the midbass.


Here's the measured response of the Celestion TF0410MR on my Pyle horn


Here's the *predicted* response of a Celestion TF0410MR on two different size horns. The first horn is 90 degrees x 90 degrees. (grey curve) The second horn is 45 degrees x 45 degrees (black curve). You'll notice that reducing the beamwidth of the horn raises the ouput level quite a bit, about six decibels. That's equivalent to quadrupling the input power(!) You'll also notice that the *predicted* response rolls off below 1000hz, while the *measured* response plays about an octave higher. This is fairly normal for Hornresp; it tends to exaggerate the high frequency rolloff of a driver.

From the sims you can see that a TF0410 has an efficiency approaching 100dB on a 90 degree horn, and if you reduce the coverage angle to 45 degrees it goes all the way up to 105dB. This is an insane level of output, and way more than I need. This is one of the weird things about Synergy Horns, it's possible to generate and absurd level of output in the midrange. The limiting factor in a Synergy Horn is nearly always the tweeter. The midrange is just loafing. (And that's why I got away with 2" midranges in 2009.)


Here's a comparison of the Celestion TF0410MR versus the SB Acoustics SB65 on the same horn. This shows the following:
1) horn loading the SB65 raises it's efficiency over 10dB
2) Although the TF0410MR is quite a bit louder, the SB65 is pretty darn loud

The key to all of this is the horn loading, basically all of the energy is 'funneled' into a narrow angle. The narrower the angle, the higher the output, for the most part.

So...

I'm now wondering if I could replace my three way with a TWO way. The same bandwidth, just fewer drivers and lower efficiency. (It will still be very efficient.)

Here's a pic of XRK971's horn:




In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 12-09-2016   #100
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Default Re: Five Channel Soundstage

Why would you need a 3 way center?
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