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Old 02-19-2006   #1
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Default close cell foam

question about second skin over kill close cell foam. is the ss over kill the same stuff as the ensolite?
anyone use the over kill and any comments. how effective is the extra layer of close cell foam?

thanks in advance
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Old 02-19-2006   #2
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Default Re: close cell foam

I truly believe that adding ensolit to the raam mat (as the last layer) improved the sound proofing of my truck. Its awesome stuff (the ensolite). I have no idea about second skin...but the ensolite you can get from Rick McCallum...who is awesome to deal with.

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Old 02-19-2006   #3
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Default Re: close cell foam

i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....

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Old 02-19-2006   #4
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek
i noticed more of a difference from one layer of 3/4" closed cell in my doors than i did with 4 layers of deadening....
You are running your mids IB? The foam would be useless if there were an enclosure correct?

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Old 02-19-2006   #5
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Default Re: close cell foam

yes, IB. foam killed an absolute ton of road noise though.

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Old 02-19-2006   #6
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

That's very nice to hear. My taurus is the biggest road noise turd. May work equally well under a carpet then.

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Old 02-19-2006   #7
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Default Re: close cell foam

yeah....i think this summer i'm going to snag some ensolite and do the rest of the car....

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Old 02-19-2006   #8
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Default Re: close cell foam

You can get some closed cell egg crate foam from walmart for $12.xx. Its used to cover the ground under your sleeping bag (in the camping section). I used 1 layer to cover the entire inside outer door and 3 layers behind my midbass. Best $12.xx I ever spent on my system. The 40 sq. ft of dynamat Extreme & Damplifier Pro for my front doors helped greatly too.
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Old 02-19-2006   #9
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Default Re: close cell foam

I think people have a huge mis-conception concerning sound deadening and vibration control.

Products like Raam mat, Dynamat, and spray on eDead are for VIBRATIONAL control

Products like Ensolite and egg crate foam are for SOUND ABSORPTION/CONTROL

They serve different purposes, but when used combined, their affects are great enhanced when compared to the product by itself.

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Old 02-20-2006   #10
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Default Re: close cell foam

Yeah, guess I should have clarified that. I just wanted to let people know about the great deal on the egg crate that you don't have to water proof.
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Old 02-20-2006   #11
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Default Re: close cell foam

If cars were designed right instead of for a price point we wouldn't need either, instead you need both.
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Old 02-20-2006   #12
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGrower
I think people have a huge mis-conception concerning sound deadening and vibration control.

Products like Raam mat, Dynamat, and spray on eDead are for VIBRATIONAL control

Products like Ensolite and egg crate foam are for SOUND ABSORPTION/CONTROL

They serve different purposes, but when used combined, their affects are great enhanced when compared to the product by itself.


It's called mass loading and barrier loading.

Liquids are actually a decent combination of both, but not necessary the best at either. Liquid deadeners do have better barrier loading properties than mat type deadener...but they aren't nearly as effective on their own as foams are. Likewise, liquids do a good job of mass loading, but again aren't as effective on their own as mat deadeners.
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Old 02-20-2006   #13
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Default Re: close cell foam

Another cheap recommendation is using the rubber spray that people use to line the bed of their trucks or the underbody. I sprayed a couple coats on the outer inside door panel before laying down the dynamat extreme. It helped to reduce the rattles of small objects that I couldn't get to with the dynamat.
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Old 02-21-2006   #14
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Default Re: close cell foam

There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking. It is used in industrial situations and laboratory setting, its called Noise Killer and can be found here. Its not cheap though by any means:
http://www.memtechacoustical.com/noi...oisekiller.htm

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Old 02-21-2006   #15
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Where can I get some of this Ensolite?
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Old 02-21-2006   #16
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes26
Where can I get some of this Ensolite?
you came to the right spot...RaamAudio offers it along with his excellent product Raammat bxt. Hit him up, he can help you out.

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Old 02-21-2006   #17
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGrower
you came to the right spot...RaamAudio offers it along with his excellent product Raammat bxt. Hit him up, he can help you out.
... in Canada tho? hmm
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Old 02-21-2006   #18
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes26
... in Canada tho? hmm
I live in Burnaby, BC. I ordered mine last Thursday, got it yesterday. Inexpensive S&H to Canada. Great guy also, I would highly recommend him. I've ordered Brown Bread and B-Quiet in the past minly because they're in Canada but RaaMaa audio does a lot better.
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Old 02-21-2006   #19
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGrower
There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking.


SecondSkin Spectrum and Cascade (V-block ?) does aswell. eDead is supposed to aswell....but I'm not a big fan of their products.


Over on SIN they had an article showing the reduction in interior noise using the Cascade product.
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Old 02-21-2006   #20
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLister
I live in Burnaby, BC. I ordered mine last Thursday, got it yesterday. Inexpensive S&H to Canada. Great guy also, I would highly recommend him. I've ordered Brown Bread and B-Quiet in the past minly because they're in Canada but RaaMaa audio does a lot better.
Thanks. Emailed him, now waiting for reply.
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Old 02-22-2006   #21
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Default Re: close cell foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGrower
There is only one real spray on coating that I know of that works both on mass loading and sound blocking. It is used in industrial situations and laboratory setting, its called Noise Killer and can be found here. Its not cheap though by any means:
http://www.memtechacoustical.com/noi...oisekiller.htm
do you think this may be the same product, just a different name.
http://www.quietsolution.com/Product..._vehicles.html
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Old 02-23-2006   #22
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

There are generic versions of the asphaultic and butyl based solutions. Grace Ice and water guard is the asphaultic, comparable to dynamat original, and Grace Vycor is the butyl based alternative. Just to give some alternatives, you can get 100 square feet of either for 50$ at a roofing supply store. another alternative to ensolite or egg crate foam is jute, fiberous carpet padding.

The key for sound absorption and diffusion is density and air pockets. compressed fiberglass is an ideal sound absorber, but rigid, and well, it's fiberglass, not great for the hands or maleablility in a Car situation. Most cars use a combination of jute or other fiberous materials...

You can see some of the OEM fiberous material that Honda uses:




Compared with the Jute I used:



Here are some pics of honda's factory asphaultic mass loading sheets (the darker patches)



Versus the plastic backed Asphaultic Grace Company, Ice and Water guard I used:



The door is only half way done.

The Jute cost me about 20$ to do the entire car, I used about 60 sqare feet of the Ice and Water Guard, used the rest on my wife's car... I probably spent ~50-60$ on the entire project. I'll bet my marbles it's in pissing distance of some of the more expensive installs... if I was just more patient and did more layers, I think you could exceed because it's less than half the cost.

Some of the more exoteric material provides are thicker by a few mil (1/100th of an inch = 1 mil) but double up for half the price... mass loading is about weight.

As for the jute vs. say ensolite, I won't make any judgements because I have not seen or heard it, same for v-block etc... They're all great products, just don't spend your money on dynamat, it's waaaayyyyy too expensive. We have a great contributor, the guy who does Raamat, I probably would go with his materials myself next time just because he's a good guy and is into the hobby.
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Old 02-24-2006   #23
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Default Re: close cell foam

Ocelaris,

1) Grace Ultra is their butyl based product - Vycor is Rubberized Asphalt. Ultra is quite a bit more expensive. Ultra is 25mils thick so you will need three layers and will not get the benefit of the aluminum foil constraining layer. Three layers of Ultra + foil is considerably more expensive than RAAMmat or similar.

2) Closed cell foam like Ensolite and Neoprene does not absorb and hold water. Products like the jute you are showing are completely inadequate for use in Car doors. It will be a perfect medium for mold, bacteria and mildew. It will also encourage rust. Use it under carpets if you like, but please don't encourage people to use it as a general replacement for closed cell foam.

3) The Honda OEM sound deadening you describe as "asphaltic" is applied prior to the high bake before going to paint shop. That is something on the order of 350 degrees F for 30 minutes. Asphalt would not survive this. The fact that it is black does not make it asphalt. The suggestion that the asphalt roofing underlayment you used is in any way comparable is absurd.

There is more to consider in an asphalt/butyl comparison than just heat tolerance. Butyl's viscoelastic properties are greater than rubberized asphalt's at any temperature and are effective over a much wider range of temperatures.

Asphalt is much more volatile and out gasses carcinogenic fumes.

The aluminum foil layer has significant barrier properties in and of itself.

People also need to consider how much support they are likely to get when they use products off label. Grace Construction is not going to help when their roofing underlayment fails in a car.

When you first made this presentation on the 7thgencivic forum, I accepted what you said. I started doing research, only to discover that I would pay more for Grace Ultra than for a aluminum foil constrained butyl mat designed for automotive use. Eventually my curiosity led me to set up sounddeadenershowdown.com.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you, but please do not mislead people into thinking that you have found a solution that is comparable to some of the better aftermarket automotive products. Choosing to use RAAMmat/Ensolite, Damplifier/Neoprene, Dynamat Xtreme/Whatever is much more than doing a favor to a nice guy on the forum. It is choosing to use products that are superior in almost every aspect to those you chose. It is also choosing to use products with a much lower likelihood of catastrophic failure.

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Old 02-24-2006   #24
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

Look, I appreciate all the research and effort you've done. However it kinda hurts my feelings the rudeness you bring to this debate. And I know it gets heated, I honestly can't remember who you were on the 7thgen forums, but there were some nasty ones... you can see why I'm not going to get into this.

When I got started 4 years ago, there was no choices. You go fight for something you believe in, and take all the crap people will bring down on you for doing something really brave, and see where that gets you... I don't appreciate your condescending attitude, and you haven't done a thing to convince me. You didn't even test the Grace materials in your review?

I'm only in this for the truth, so it doesn't matter to me what's right, and I'm not a condescending or rude guy, but I will make you defend your position until you cry and say uncle...

You did some good work, If you are going to be the resounding voice of what is truth, then I hope for all of us that you have enough courage to question yourself as much as others question you. Because we'll all be listening and believing, and no amount of research will ever prepare you to be a good leader.
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Old 02-24-2006   #25
 
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Default Re: close cell foam

psst... unsubscribed
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