And yet, while a young man quietly buys an amp on ebay instead of his local shop, I go to Streetnoyz in San Diego and find their huge garage is full of exotic cars waiting for installs. Looks like high end car audio is a profitable business proposition. In fact, while he wanted $1300 for a set of kickpanels, he charged me $26.50 out the door for a Symbilink transmitter. Figure that one out
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlasSman
Shops are willing to haggle on a small accesory product.....not labor....which affects him...here in the now.....he could have been sitting on that cable for YEARS.
$1300 seem's a little high for kick panels, but not if they're being sanded down smooth to paint, and if the price included paint, resin and all other materials, and if they had to relocate anything that was in the way of the kicks. Keep in mind, Labor on custom fab'd pieces like that is kind of like trying to price out a paint job for your car. You can't always say that a 5k paint job is a rip off, or that the $199 Maaco special is a great deal. There are differences in the quality of the work here.
"Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy." - Sir Isaac Newton
“The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others”
Tibetan Proverb quotes
Not sure how I missed this topic. As from experience of managing a shop for a few years, and now owning an online shop for almost as long, I have seen it from both sides. Online sales are not killing the industry, it is an evolutionary step. The internet has provided people with access to much more information (be it positive or way wrong, but it still gives a much greater wealth of choices and information then a few mom & pop shops or even the all mighty best buy).
The quality of information and install provided in brick and mortar shops have dropped a great deal. Is it the fault of the internet? I am sure plenty believe that, and it can be debated, but it cannot be proven because of too many factors as the industry changes and grows. In a way, online shops may force people to learn more because they want to do the install on their own, and the negative visa-versa POV is true.
More and more companies are moving to over seas build houses to either increase margins or keep margins based on rising material costs. Not sure if the metaphor was mentioned before, but do people think places like Autotrader has killed used car dealer ships?
It is the next step, it is the nature of many facets of life, evolve to survive.
This is what makes "Do It Yourself Mobile Audio" so popular. You start off cutting some MDF to make a subwoofer box in High School and before you know it, you are sitting at your laptop with a reference microphone, trying to figure out how to do impulse measurements.
Who do I have to thank for this advance in my own knowledge? The web. No Brick and Mortar shop would dream of spending any more than a few minutes discussing things with me unless I was willing to spend big bucks. Times have changed.
I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I've never had a job that I enjoyed. Ok, I take that back, I was a male dancer at one point, and bangin chics in the bathroom every night was pretty fun. Oh, shit....ok, then I had a job were I was security for these two smokin hot strippers that would do bachelor parties. They would get but naked and eat each other all night. and then come back to my pad and crash out. Hee hee! Ok, that was a REALLY cool job! Hahaha!!
Ok, shit, I can't argue the "get a real job like everyone else" side of things, so I'll just state why I won't buy from a shop:
1) They usually don't carry what I want, so I have no choice but to order online.
2) If they do have what I want, it's much more expensive than online, and I have to pay sales tax on top of the higher price.
3) I don't NEED a shops services.
4) Alot of shop employees are scum bags! I had about 3 different people tell me that my sales person (15 years ago) was selling my address and license plate number to people who wanted to steal my shit! If I ever see that fucker again, I'll break his fucking arms off!
Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent. X-type Jaguar, iPod, MiniDSP 2x8, /////ALPINE PDX-5, Seas Neo's, Dayton RS180's, Dayton HO 12's
You know what, let me ask this? How the hell do the online stores get the merchandise? From the manufacturer? From a distributor? Are the online stores the distributor?
Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent. X-type Jaguar, iPod, MiniDSP 2x8, /////ALPINE PDX-5, Seas Neo's, Dayton RS180's, Dayton HO 12's
Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent. X-type Jaguar, iPod, MiniDSP 2x8, /////ALPINE PDX-5, Seas Neo's, Dayton RS180's, Dayton HO 12's
[4) Alot of shop employees are scum bags! I had about 3 different people tell me that my sales person (15 years ago) was selling my address and license plate number to people who wanted to steal my shit! If I ever see that fucker again, I'll break his fucking arms off![/QUOTE]
I've heard a LOT of stories about this kind of thing happening, even with expensive alarms with great installs... I know one guy who had his alarm brain mounted to the firewall behind the dash, and paid extra for it so nobody could disable the alarm brain. 3 days later his entire system was stolen, and the alarm brain was stolen from underneath the dash... and who could have known it was there except the people who installed it?
I know people are making the jump from online to China, but they have been making stuff in China before there was an internet. The manufacturers frankly don't make money on retail sales anyway, they make it on selling it to dealers. So an online retailer at 10% over cost and a brick and mortar at 100% over cost still give the manufacturer the same amount of profit if they paid the same price.
Juan
2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon
Pioneer DEH-PRS80
JL Audio Stealthbox
Boston Acoustics GT-2125 X 3
Polk Audio SR6500
There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.
1) People shop at Walmart for a reason. The car audio industry isn't sheltered from big-box store low prices just like your local mom+pop hardware store isn't sheltered from a Home Depot that is 20 minutes away.
2) The age of the retail sales expert is over. If you are good at selling car audio, chances are you're better at selling medical instruments...guess which makes more money?
3) Cars come apart much easier than before and with lots of help online, people can learn to install a pair of speakers and a head unit in their Honda Civic in the amount of time it takes for them to drive to a store and schedule an appointment.
4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.
5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.
6) The money people would have spent on audio gear in the past is now spent on remote-starters, alarms, and GPS units (items that weren't as popular or didn't exist a decade ago). Companies that sell this stuff in addition to audio gear should ride the tide well but local shops that aren't willing to spend 85% of their day installing remote starters are going to fall under the radar.
PPI DCX-730 / DLS A5+A8 / TBI TWEP51 / DLS Iridium 6 / DLS OA12 / Work Log
Not sure how I missed this topic. As from experience of managing a shop for a few years, and now owning an online shop for almost as long, I have seen it from both sides. Online sales are not killing the industry, it is an evolutionary step. The internet has provided people with access to much more information (be it positive or way wrong, but it still gives a much greater wealth of choices and information then a few mom & pop shops or even the all mighty best buy).
The quality of information and install provided in brick and mortar shops have dropped a great deal. Is it the fault of the internet? I am sure plenty believe that, and it can be debated, but it cannot be proven because of too many factors as the industry changes and grows. In a way, online shops may force people to learn more because they want to do the install on their own, and the negative visa-versa POV is true.
More and more companies are moving to over seas build houses to either increase margins or keep margins based on rising material costs. Not sure if the metaphor was mentioned before, but do people think places like Autotrader has killed used car dealer ships?
It is the next step, it is the nature of many facets of life, evolve to survive.
There are a few car audio specific manufacturers that I feel are doing a great job and I support them consistently. These are the companies that are taking the time to design/build their own drivers, put the necessary research into their product and take the design as far as possible. I make a big point to buy from these companies when they have a product that meets my needs and when I do I buy their equipment authorized from a dealer.
The biggest thing that turns me off of the car audio market today is the subpar quality of *most* products offered for the money, and it's made that much worse due to the lack of objective testing for "high end" car audio products. If the information isn't posted, I automatically assume it isn't what it's cracked up to be. If I want to prove I built a high performance engine, I know I'd rather show somebody a dyno sheet than blabber on about engine modifications and their supposed benefits. Do you think Adire Audio, RE, and other companies that got started by the internet and word of mouth would actually have gotten as popular as they did had they not posted BL curves and dumax reports of XBL^2 woofers compared to the best of the best that the car audio world had to offer? The truth is the majority of car audio equipment can't run with today's home/pro audio middle of the line drivers and the manufacturers know it. A trip through the SEAS Prestige or Peerless lineup can walk all over 99% of the car audio speakers on the market provided you are competent with a crossover design (competent, not even phenomenal).
Personally I think subjectivism is the only thing that keeps garbage products and garbage manufacturers in the market at their particular price points. It's also the only reason that companies can become completely stagnant and still bring in big profits. If you were to ask a shop, or even a car audio company, to provide some meaningful testing of their products, 5% of them might offer you something meaningful while others will shy away from the topic because they know the product they're pushing isn't worth what it costs. A lack of objective test results will generally exist when either a lack of knowledge is present or when objective tests give them (or would give you) an answer they/you don't want to hear. "Forget what it measures like, just trust your ears" they say, or "measurements don't tell the whole story". If measurements don't explain how a driver performs, it's because you weren't looking at the right measurements. On the subjectivist side of the fence, first impressions of speakers are generally wrong, especially in short demos just due to the nature of human hearing. People flock to what sounds different, not what sounds better, high levels of distortion, mismatched componentry and horrible crossover design often accomplishes this quite well. Subjectivism has a place, but it's place should occur after you've went through the qualifying process of determining which systems deliver the performance you're willing to accept. After that point you can subjectively determine which qualities are most preferable to your personal taste. Most car audio companies don't offer the information necessary to make a qualified decision, and that to me is a huge turnoff.
Last edited by Dangerranger; 08-06-2008 at 10:51 PM..
There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.
Well said, brotha.
Particularly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuyler1
4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.
So very true. The days of a 10-disc CD changer and 4 six buh nines are over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuyler1
5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.
Although steering wheel interfaces are taking care of the control portion, at least.
There are so many factors killing the corner audio shop that discussing it here is just a waste of time. But oh well I'm bored so let me count the ways.
2) The age of the retail sales expert is over. If you are good at selling car audio, chances are you're better at selling medical instruments...guess which makes more money?
Well, for the most part it's because of the pay. Car Audio pays like crap for the majority of people.
Quote:
3) Cars come apart much easier than before and with lots of help online, people can learn to install a pair of speakers and a head unit in their Honda Civic in the amount of time it takes for them to drive to a store and schedule an appointment.
There is more help, but the cars are put together better, with tighter tolerances and lighter and cheaper plastic. So not as easy as you think.
Quote:
4) Mid to high end cars have brand-name audio systems that often rival entry level aftermarket components, making the meat of the car audio sales industry run dry.
Mid to high? Pretty much most cars have what used to be an option on a high end car as standard (a CD player, speakers, satellite radio option, on star, etc.).
Quote:
5) Integrated audio and nav systems with steering wheel controls make it difficult for people to do even a simple head unit upgrade without replacing half their dash and spending a fortune.
Don't forget the digital bus systems. Even when stuff physically drops in, electronically you might still have a way to go.
[/quote]
6) The money people would have spent on audio gear in the past is now spent on remote-starters, alarms, and GPS units (items that weren't as popular or didn't exist a decade ago). Companies that sell this stuff in addition to audio gear should ride the tide well but local shops that aren't willing to spend 85% of their day installing remote starters are going to fall under the radar.[/quote]
[quote]
I would argue that the proliferation of keyless entry and the recent milder than normal winters and summers are playing a roll as well.
Installed GPS is just such a niche compared to portable, so who knows.
Juan
2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon
Pioneer DEH-PRS80
JL Audio Stealthbox
Boston Acoustics GT-2125 X 3
Polk Audio SR6500
I buy online simply because I have to - very few car audio shops here, and the ones that do exist don't stock what I want. I'll bet you'd find few car audio shops in the US too that stock Seas tweets, Silver-Flute midbass drivers and Adire Audio subwoofers :-). Right now I'm still trying to find a good replacement for those Shivas - 12" drivers with the right combination of price and performance, and actually met their advertised T/S parameters...
Times are tough and consumers are hurting just as bad as these shops are. Why pay more at a shop when you'll be doing the install yourself?
Good shops are few and far betwwen. If there was one in my area that actually provided the benefits you've listed, I would probably buy more from them. As it stands, I buy the majority of my stuff on-line and a few select items from one local retailer.
Price is a big factor, yes, but not the only factor.
Reasons why I don't go to shops...
1) Items stolen from my car by shop employees (geez, I didn't think I had to take my LED flashlight out of my car to keep it from being stolen).
2) Scratches on my car from where the hacks did something. How do you scratch my rear fender installing an alarm?
3) Poor selection. If I want a Pioneer Premier HU, they many not carry Focal speakers, etc.
4) Crappy installations where installers blatently lie about work done and charge you for it, only to discover later that it wasn't done
5) I typically know more than most of the salespeople and installers so why on Earth would I pay for them to dumb me down with their useless sales sheet jargon instead of facts?
BTW, these things happen at "reputable" shops, not BB or CC. These are independently owned shops.
It all boils down to this: no one cares about my car or my system as much as I do. No one else can do it correctly. I won't even let anyone else work on my car because more often than not, they screw it up.
P.S. I have never had a single item fail that would have been covered by warranty anyway so what's the point?
P.P.S. This is happening to all industries, not just audio. Online retail is taking a toll on every retail market.
^This
Also in regards to this quote,
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrivalanche
have you ever tested that warranty? I've hear the same story and they dont usually end with any positive results. Now dont get me wrong, some shady shops are the same way to. Once they get your money they dont give a crap what you want or what problems you have. You just have to be smart about where you go.
... the word of mouth passed around by informed consumers carries alot of weight. We know who the bad and the good are in terms of what retailers and manufactures take care of their online customers and those who don't.
Bought from: Doola36 (CA.com), ThE1BiGMiKe (Mazda6Club.com)
Sold to: tijuana_no (DIYMA)
I'm surprised at how few shops take advantage of the online market themselves. Most of the shops near me don't have websites or have websites that look like they were put in a time capsule around 1998. Get your installs online (provided you have permission from your customers), get your product offering online, promote your store and skills on forums, and purchase targeted advertising on local sites. In short, show people that you can do it better than them. It doesn't cost that much to throw some photos and info up on a website these days.
PPI DCX-730 / DLS A5+A8 / TBI TWEP51 / DLS Iridium 6 / DLS OA12 / Work Log
That's exactly it! A business must adapt or die. Just like an animal. If it snows, and you don't have fur you'd better know how to fly south. It sucks that Mom and Pop places are going out of business, but the businesses online are also Mom and Pop business that have adapted (unless is Best Buy or Curcuit city).
Now working in the car audio industry for the past 10+ years I can definitely see what ebay and other online stores have done to the industry. I just wanted to get an impression if you DIYers know the consequences of bypassing your local shops. I have personally seen almost half of the stable shops go under the last few years and talking to reps and other shops you hear the same thing, "sales just aren't there." I know the economy is bad anymore but I just see it wrong how people dont support their local shop of choice. Dont you realize that you get a lot more than a higher price for your equipment? You get a warranty that you cant get if you buy it online through unauthorized dealers, not to mention the convenience of having it in stock that day. I just feel that if everyone continues to cut out the middle man they wont be there when you need them, and that it will ultimately effect the brands themselves. I know everyone is looking for the best price, but ultimately it comes at a price to many people. Feel free to give me your opinion.
I've seen too many "Pro shops" with their butcher installs, yielding piss poor results on top dollar gear. I wouldn't be able to piece together an SQ or flashy show trophy winner, but I know enough to steer clear of these places.
I have purchased everything from flea market brand gear to semi high end goodies, I've built boxes, tuned and installed (sometimes correctly, other times not s'much) Self taught with much much more to learn, yet I still got/get better results than the locals I've been exposed to thus far.(Mind you, with cheaper gear compared to what the locals are using down here)
Not to worry though, from what I see there are countless Boobs with money to burn giving these places plenty of business. Lambos, Hummers, Ferraris all being nicely hacked by this one shop in particular.
I sat in this one Lambo, listened for about 10 seconds before I couldn't stand it anymore, it hurt my ears, it was so distorted. A mixture of envy and anger for both the shop owner and the Lambo owner quickly welled up in me.
The shop owner was being envied because he was getting paid for committing murder. The Lambo owner? Envied for obvious reasons. Angered with him for being a dumbass with Gigabucks, too stupid to know what a good system sounds like. Why him and not me? LOL!
Back to the shop owner. Pffftt! I mean, this guy did nothing but attempt to tune a hacked install. He had the enclosures made by another shop, had his butchers install everything (broken tabs on interior pieces and such) did the worst job tuning and got paid Gigabucks by a happy customer that brings in his buddies for more butchering!
Flashy looking installs makes these idiots happy I suppose.
Broken tabs? Nothing a bit of stealthily applied superglue won't fix or hide. SQ is definitely taking a backseat in this one particular shop.
I can't speak for all as I don't get out much, I'm new here in SOFLO, I'm sure there are good shops (none I am familiar with) but there are also far too many hacks aplenty.
I don't know an honest shop that does good work nor one that doesn't overcharge for equipment. Show me a spot and maybe I'll pay them for their time.
I mean no offense in any of this. Just my 2 cents.
I have personally had bad luck at almost every shop I've ever been too. That being said, a lot of the reason why people are moving away from brick and mortar stores is because they have nothing to offer... Higher prices, bad service, why WOULD you want to go there?
All of the Mom and Pop shops around here cater to the 'mid-fi' boom and doom crowd. They would not know SQ if it bit them in the ass. I don't buy the crap about 'service' ...I had rather buy good quality equipment that doesn't need 'service' to begin with.
>^..^<
If money is the root of all evil, why do churches beg for it?
Give me liberty ...or I'll get up and get it myself.
An armed man is a citizen ...an unarmed man is a subject.
[QUOTE=lust4sound;559798] Show me a spot and maybe I'll pay them for their time.
QUOTE]
PM Here-I-Come (think that's the user name). Guy owns a shop down in South Florida I think and is a member on here. No clue about their work, but would be a good place to start for a shop in your area. I think his name is Mark Brooks, but again I could be mistaken.
EDIT: Actually I looked it up for you and this is from his profile:
Quote:
About Here-I-Come
Location
Miami
Signature
Take a music bath once or twice a week for a few seasons, and you will find that it is to the soul what the water bath is to the body.
Mark A. Brooks
Co-Owner and Founder
Audio By Design
Miami, FL
Re: ultimate consequences of buying online
Oh, shit....ok, then I had a job were I was security for these two smokin hot strippers that would do bachelor parties. They would get but naked and eat each other all night. and then come back to my pad and crash out. Hee hee! Ok, that was a REALLY cool job! Hahaha!! 
Linear Mode
