hi, a couple days ago i moved my tweeters from the kicks to the pillars. i adjusted crossover points and level matched and all that. my problem is on some music there is some harshness. like at high volume it gets "edgy".
i can play stuff like alice in chains "unplugged", eagles "hell freezes over", stuff like that and it sounds fine. and then i play some opeth and at times it sounds pretty nasty.
i can't figure out which band(s) i need to EQ down. maybe EQ'ing isn't the answer. i'm going ot go throw a towel on my dash and see if maybe its some reflections off the dash. but if anyone else has any ideas let me know and i'll try it.
i am using the equipment listed in my sig, mids crossed from 80hz-2.5k, tweets from 4k and up(reversed polarity), sub from 63 and down, all at 12db slopes.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
Try to do a frequency sweep...it will help you approximate what frequencies are causing the problem. In my experience, you usually attenuate frequencies at around the xover point most probably because of some overlapping frequencies causing a summed peak in the transition zone in your frequency response...in your case from 2.5k-4kHz. You are also using 12db slopes which might cause comb filtering since the drivers are widely separated.
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When I had tweets in the pillars at first I found that the only music that sounded good to me was rock...
They were really just too far way from my mids... I've moved them back to doors stock location in my current setup and I like the way it sounds all the way around...
Have you tried using a dash mat?...
Mine were just pointing right at my face -so that was just asking for "harsh" i guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
My phone makes and receives calls, and can tell me the news while I'm dropping a deuce... it works just fine for me.
yea i understand about bad recordings, that might be all it is i guess. i just can't stand harshness. i prefer a laid back sound but most of the stuff i listen to daily does not sound laid back.
i do have different EQ's that i can save and toggle through so that also may be an option. i do prefer to just kinda leave things alone and not change settings from song to song.
i don't know how accurate they are but i was playing test tones that are the same frequencies that my EQ lets me adjust. i noticed even with my big under lap in the crossovers that 3.15k was still a huge peak. which doesn't really make sense because electronically i should be quite a bit down at that point. i was just assuming that the meter isn't accurate but who knows.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
When I had tweets in the pillars at first I found that the only music that sounded good to me was rock...
They were really just too far way from my mids... I've moved them back to doors stock location in my current setup and I like the way it sounds all the way around...
Have you tried using a dash mat?...
Mine were just pointing right at my face -so that was just asking for "harsh" i guess.
i don't have a dash mat, i will get one if that helps. i will go out shortly and throw a towel on the dash and see if that helps any though.
i like the way things sound with them mounted up in the pillars though. i was always missing the stage height with them in the kicks, so i like the raised sound stage. i really don't see any problems here with the mids and tweets being seperated like they are, it sounds fine when it comes to that. right now they are about 4 inches above the dash line and firing straight across.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
I think you'll hear some improvement with the towel... those high freqs bounce around on the dash and window... That could definately add to said "harsh" sound!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
My phone makes and receives calls, and can tell me the news while I'm dropping a deuce... it works just fine for me.
it is definitely the mids and not the tweeters fault. i played the tweets by themselves and then the mids by themselves and the mids are still the problem. if i cross them any higher than 2k/24db they sound like ass in my car.
before when i tried the playing the tweeters down to 2.5k/24db when in the pillars they sounded obnoxious but maybe the towel on the dash helped that because now they sound fine crossed low. so i am back to 2k/24db on the mids and 2.5k/24db on the tweets. maybe once i get my new mids everything will be better.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
what words or sounds specifically are sounding edgy? also any specific songs we can reference? that'll help track down the problem area.
my car has no sibilance on anything until i play chevelle, and it's really bad on that. i finally just gave up. not all music is recorded equally.
its only in electric guitars, like some of the stuff on Ghost Reveries by Opeth, some of the stuff on Katatonia's latest cd, i'm sure some chevelle would do it too. its just at higher volumes certain electric guitar notes seem to "get edgy" or "ring". i have never noticed any sibilance. and the problem is not harshness on the very tippy top, its not cymbals or anything that high. it's pretty much just certain electric guitar.
i am pretty sure its my mids breaking up in the higher freq's or they are just plain old getting overdriven.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
The RSD mids break up around 2KHz, that is where your harshness is coming from. I have mine running passive for now at about 3KHz 2nd order and the break-up around 2KHz is noticeable to me; my tweeters, seas alu neos, sound fantastic. Have you got your ID OEM mids yet? I think you'll like those. I'm thinking of trying the D1720C pioneer mids (non prs ones) in place of the RSD mids, I'll take a little hit in mid-bass punch for a cleaner upper mid section.
I have the same mids as you.. feeding 180 per side, crossed at 2.5k, and they don't really get that harsh.. a little, yes.. I had problems with them but it turns out one set of inputs on my amp was broken, creating horrible sound from 2.5k and up.
This is probably not your kind of music in anyway but it is really good for checking if it sounds like what i think it does.. If you try Megadeth's Tornado of Souls.. the vocals just before the bridge to the solo (opportunitYYYYY). That part is a nightmare. Also the solo on Necrophagist - Only Ash Remains has a lot of peaky guitar. I'm gonna go blast these right now actually and see how they do. If they pass then you might look into other things than just the mids..
The RSD mids break up around 2KHz, that is where your harshness is coming from. I have mine running passive for now at about 3KHz 2nd order and the break-up around 2KHz is noticeable to me; my tweeters, seas alu neos, sound fantastic. Have you got your ID OEM mids yet? I think you'll like those. I'm thinking of trying the D1720C pioneer mids (non prs ones) in place of the RSD mids, I'll take a little hit in mid-bass punch for a cleaner upper mid section.
how do you know they break up at 2k? have a graph to prove that? just curious to see. i know they do seem to break up.
i should have the ID OEM'z by next monday. Hessdawg's in cali, i'm in ny. he's shipping them today. i am wiling to bet that they will solve all my problems.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
I have the same mids as you.. feeding 180 per side, crossed at 2.5k, and they don't really get that harsh.. a little, yes.. I had problems with them but it turns out one set of inputs on my amp was broken, creating horrible sound from 2.5k and up.
This is probably not your kind of music in anyway but it is really good for checking if it sounds like what i think it does.. If you try Megadeth's Tornado of Souls.. the vocals just before the bridge to the solo (opportunitYYYYY). That part is a nightmare. Also the solo on Necrophagist - Only Ash Remains has a lot of peaky guitar. I'm gonna go blast these right now actually and see how they do. If they pass then you might look into other things than just the mids..
megadeth is ok, maybe i'll try that song and let ya know. i'd have to put it on my ipod and i am not really a fan of the ipod in my car but we'll see.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
MVW2 wrote:
"However, if I put one heavily off-axis, there will be a loss of higher frequencies, I assume on the order of 3dB per octave. There is really no problem to this."
i wouldn't expect beaming to cause harshness. from what mvw2 said it looks like response will start to drop, which shouldn't cause harshness.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
MVW2 wrote:
"However, if I put one heavily off-axis, there will be a loss of higher frequencies, I assume on the order of 3dB per octave. There is really no problem to this."
i wouldn't expect beaming to cause harshness. from what mvw2 said it looks like response will start to drop, which shouldn't cause harshness.
beaming makes your speakers directional and in turn creates harshness off axis. that's why it's a good idea to not cross a 6.5" mid above 2500. that where i just don't get why companies design passives to cross mids and tweets over as high as 6500hz and these are companies that are very well respected. the mids on these sets are intended for car doors which are off-axis. i'll keep the names i have in mind to myself as not to start any flamewars from fanboys. the rsd mids do have midrange issues and your install is most likely causing some issues as stated above.
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beaming makes your speakers directional and in turn creates harshness off axis. that's why it's a good idea to not cross a 6.5" mid above 2500. that where i just don't get why companies design passives to cross mids and tweets over as high as 6500hz and these are companies that are very well respected. the mids on these sets are intended for car doors which are off-axis. i'll keep the names i have in mind to myself as not to start any flamewars from fanboys. the rsd mids do have midrange issues and your install is most likely causing some issues as stated above.
well i got Hessdawgs famous ID's on the way so hopefully the problem will be solved.
i just went out and played candlebox's self titled cd and i could turn it up as loud as i wanted louder and louder and it sounded fine.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
well i got Hessdawgs famous ID's on the way so hopefully the problem will be solved.
i just went out and played candlebox's self titled cd and i could turn it up as loud as i wanted louder and louder and it sounded fine.
I've heard many people mention this Cd, but for some reason, I don't think it sounds that great. In my truck, all the slower stuff sounds great, but when it get's going the guitar doesn't sound right to me.
I think I'm having phase issues, though. I need to pick up a tuning disc to get my polarity and t/a spot on pretty soon...
well i got Hessdawgs famous ID's on the way so hopefully the problem will be solved.
i just went out and played candlebox's self titled cd and i could turn it up as loud as i wanted louder and louder and it sounded fine.
You and me both FWIW i think the RSD's sound tinny past a certain volume. I think it's due to the suspension locking up, the HD in the midrange increasing or the cone flexing. Either the mids/hi-mids keep increasing in volume while the midbass remains constant, or the midbass decreases in output as the cone flexes (i know nil about speakers this is just guessing).
I still don't think it's really ear-hurting to listen to, but i won't say i enjoy it. It's tiring, or straining.
For an experiment try pushing the cone out from the back near the surround. The cone is almost softer than the surround..
I've heard many people mention this Cd, but for some reason, I don't think it sounds that great. In my truck, all the slower stuff sounds great, but when it get's going the guitar doesn't sound right to me.
I think I'm having phase issues, though. I need to pick up a tuning disc to get my polarity and t/a spot on pretty soon...
that cd always seems to sound good to me.
My 07 Scion tC install: 880PRS, ID OEM 6.5" mids, Seas neo aluminum tweets, DD S4 and DD C2a amps, Dayton Ref H.O. 10(.7net, tuned to 30hz)
how do you know they break up at 2k? have a graph to prove that? just curious to see. i know they do seem to break up.
i should have the ID OEM'z by next monday. Hessdawg's in cali, i'm in ny. he's shipping them today. i am wiling to bet that they will solve all my problems.
I remember reading a post on here of another person's review of the RSD's and he stated he had breakup past 2KHz on his mids (though I didn't see any graphs for this, I assume he was going by ear), but that could ahve been specific to his setup, I believe he even said he notched between 2 and 3 so the breakup wasn't audible. Let me see if I can find that specific thread...
taming harshness... any hints?
.. I posted a picture in another thread
Linear Mode
