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Old 01-09-2009   #1
 
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Default Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Just curious if any of you mix crossover slopes for your active setups. I'm currently trying to eliminate some bad peaks right around 3k and decided to use some different crossover slopes. Currently when I'm on 4th order, crossed over at 2.5-3k with my RS100's, I get major peaks that I can't EQ out. I decided a 2nd order was, well, in order (no pun intended). I crossed the 2nd order over right around 2-2.5k and it definitely smoothed out the response.

Questions are...

If I'm going with a 2nd order, how much more should I drop my crossover? I was running the 4th orders at 2.75KHz for the midrange and 3KHz for the tweeter. Now I'm running 2nd order for the midrange @ 2KHz and 4th order for the tweeter @ 3KHz. Is this a logical point for said drivers/x-overs?

Also, is it common practice to mix 2nd and 4th orders like this? What advantages or disadvantages could arise from it?

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Old 01-09-2009   #2
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

What was the plot look like at your listening position with your currently installed speaker?
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Old 01-09-2009   #3
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darcness View Post
Just curious if any of you mix crossover slopes for your active setups. I'm currently trying to eliminate some bad peaks right around 3k and decided to use some different crossover slopes. Currently when I'm on 4th order, crossed over at 2.5-3k with my RS100's, I get major peaks that I can't EQ out. I decided a 2nd order was, well, in order (no pun intended). I crossed the 2nd order over right around 2-2.5k and it definitely smoothed out the response.

Questions are...

If I'm going with a 2nd order, how much more should I drop my crossover? I was running the 4th orders at 2.75KHz for the midrange and 3KHz for the tweeter. Now I'm running 2nd order for the midrange @ 2KHz and 4th order for the tweeter @ 3KHz. Is this a logical point for said drivers/x-overs?

Also, is it common practice to mix 2nd and 4th orders like this? What advantages or disadvantages could arise from it?

You see mixed orders in passives all the time. There is no advantage or disadvantage; the combo that produces the flattest response is the best.

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Old 01-09-2009   #4
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

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Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
You see mixed orders in passives all the time. There is no advantage or disadvantage; the combo that produces the flattest response is the best.
Good stuff, that's really what I needed to know.

Any idea if it's just as common to run with a fair amount of underlap (~.5-1k)? Or am I overdoing it a bit?

I ran about 250Hz to 500Hz underlap on my 4th order mid/high crossovers. Just curious if I'm going about things wrongly by adjusting more underlap for the lessened slope.

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Old 01-09-2009   #5
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

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Originally Posted by darcness View Post
Good stuff, that's really what I needed to know.

Any idea if it's just as common to run with a fair amount of underlap (~.5-1k)? Or am I overdoing it a bit?
There's no right and wrong. Every situation is unique and whatever works best for you.

I just looked at the ID forum today and learned that on some of their passives there's no LP on the mid.
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Old 01-09-2009   #6
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by icehole View Post
There's no right and wrong. Every situation is unique and whatever works best for you.
Thank you for the reassurance. I definitely feel like I'm really getting some where after going around in circles since I went 3-way. The 2nd order seemed to really smooth out my BAD peaks near the crossover points on the mid/high areas. Loving these RS100's now. I think they really shine with 2nd order in an IB install.

Quote:
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I just looked at the ID forum today and learned that on some of their passives there's no LP on the mid.
Wow. How does that work? I would think it would cause some massive beaming have the mid playing full range. Especially on a 6.5 or 5.25 for instance. Very strange that they would do that with a passive...

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Old 01-09-2009   #7
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darcness View Post
Wow. How does that work? I would think it would cause some massive beaming have the mid playing full range. Especially on a 6.5 or 5.25 for instance. Very strange that they would do that with a passive...
I dunno.

I've never used the passives that came with my Chams, but people seem to like them.
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Old 01-09-2009   #8
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darcness View Post
Thank you for the reassurance. I definitely feel like I'm really getting some where after going around in circles since I went 3-way. The 2nd order seemed to really smooth out my BAD peaks near the crossover points on the mid/high areas. Loving these RS100's now. I think they really shine with 2nd order in an IB install.



Wow. How does that work? I would think it would cause some massive beaming have the mid playing full range. Especially on a 6.5 or 5.25 for instance. Very strange that they would do that with a passive...
They're using the woofer's natural roll-off.

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Old 01-09-2009   #9
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by icehole View Post
I dunno.

I've never used the passives that came with my Chams, but people seem to like them.
Huh, that's really strange. It seems like they would be beaming like a mofo playing all the way up to 20KHz. Not only that, but it would seem like you'd have a nasty peak right after the tweeter takes over and they share the same tones within their respectable abilities. Maybe the crossover attenuates the tweeter/woofer in that area to compensate.

I have no idea...

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Old 01-10-2009   #10
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Look at the mixed slopes I used. I had the hardest time finding the right point and slope for the mids and tweets on the dash. 24dB slope on the mid lowpass did not sound as good as a relaxed slope. I REALLY needed to see a reponse graph of this system as there were some things going on.

Tweeters: (24dB/Oct.)4KHz- Up
Mids: ~(12dB/Oct.HP) 300Hz– 4KHz (6dB/Oct.LP)
MidBass: (24dB/Oct.HP) 80Hz ~ 300Hz (12dB/Oct.LP)
Sub: (24dB/Oct.LP) or (18dB/OctLP) 63Hz - Down

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...s-s101prs.html
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Old 01-10-2009   #11
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Crossover slopes also adjust the phase of the driver. That's why you should also have the ability to flip the polarity on each pair of drivers on-the-fly. In my setup I was having some horrendous phasing issues and changing the slope order made all the difference in the world. Here are the setting I had BEFORE a trained set of ears straightened out the trainwreck.
sub-63 24db
mids-80 18db-2khz 18db
tweets-2500 24db

NOW with the new crossover points the staging is rock solid and DOES NOT dance around the sound muddled anymore.
sub-80 24db
mids-80 24db-2khz 12db
tweets-3200 18db

Take a look at the 2 configurations and compare. Changing the slope (phase) by 90* on a couple of the points made all the difference in the world. Also keep in mind that going from a 12 to a 24db slope will flip the phase 180*. Confused now?

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Old 01-10-2009   #12
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Not really confused. I'm ok with phasing. I've got the ability to add that on to my DSP for each driver individually as well. I'll be doing some phasing tests for sure once I get the focal CD M4A's converted over to FLAC. Just haven't had a chance to yet.

Thanks for all the information guys. I'm making some definite head way with the 2nd order which makes me happy.

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Old 01-10-2009   #13
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darcness View Post
Any idea if it's just as common to run with a fair amount of underlap (~.5-1k)? Or am I overdoing it a bit?

I ran about 250Hz to 500Hz underlap on my 4th order mid/high crossovers. Just curious if I'm going about things wrongly by adjusting more underlap for the lessened slope.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some cars just fill areas in for you. I think I use a 1/3 oct underlap/gap on all 4 of my xover points. But, again it depends on the slope.
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Old 01-10-2009   #14
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

Well, the 2nd order is cash money. That much is decided. It really took the peaks out and I'm extremely happy with the sound now.

I did some phase testing and all came out well. Didn't even have to adjust any phasing to get it right so my T/A and crossovers are dialed in good.

I also did some staging tests using the Focal disc and that shit is amazing. The "walking" saxophone track is probably my favorite. I've definitely got a left, left-center, center, right-center, and right stage. They flowed well too, no anomalies and just subtle enough to notice. I also really like the drawing circles track. You can actually hear the pencil circles get louder and go from left and expand out from there all the way across the stage. Neat stuff.

The only issue I'm having now is frequency response using test tones. Most of the tones are nice and centered, but some seem to jump around pretty bad. Also there really isn't any rhyme or reason to it. At 100Hz up to about 400Hz it's fine. Then it starts to jump around. One tone will be left biased and then the next will be right balanced. It's not defined either. Sometimes only a 200Hz difference (ie. 600Hz, 800Hz) will be left biased, then switch right to right biased. Basically my frequency response is bouncing all over the stage.

Any thoughts on why this might be? It's not driver dependent as far as I can tell. It happens all through the 300Hz to 12KHz range.

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Old 01-10-2009   #15
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?

^ reflection and refraction. You're hearing the effects of your car. Yea? In a huge room, that wouldn't happen. No?
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Old 01-10-2009   #16
 
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Default Re: Mixing and matching crossover slopes?



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^ reflection and refraction. You're hearing the effects of your car. Yea? In a huge room, that wouldn't happen. No?
In a car, yes. In an acoustically sound environment, no.

Point taken, and accepted. I know for a fact I'm getting some reflections and resonance because it's the middle of winter and I haven't had a chance to do any deadening or ensolite. It's on the "to do" list for spring/summer.

I'm just happy that I've finally managed to get the Daytons to blend well with the rest of the system. I was started to think I was fighting a losing battle with IB. Once I get the deadening and ensolite in I'm confident this will be my best setup to date.

I'm sure I'll be fine tuning the individually drivers to make sure everything is outputting the proper intensity. At this point that, and then my EQ are the last things on my list, DSP wise.

I would think it would be beneficial to wait until AFTER doing the install work (deadening, etc.) to work with my stereo EQing. Wouldn't make sense to do so before taking care of all of the reflections and install related issue I can. Sounds like a plan to me, no?

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