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Old 12-10-2009   #1
 
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Default Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

I'm getting to the point in my install where I'll start wiring in a few days. I have read every single thread here , and information in other places, about doing rear fill using L-R, but I still don't have any definitive answer.

If we are trying to do the Haas effect, do the rear fill speakers (with the assumption that you have more than one speaker, in the doors or in the rear deck) need a "stereo" signal, different signal for each side, or can you use a "mono" signal for both sides?

Here's the system diagram I'm "planning" to use, including the connections for rear fill. Will this "work"?



Thanks.
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Old 12-10-2009   #2
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

I honestly have no idea, but I'd like to know what you'll be using as your carPC, if you don't mind.
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Old 12-11-2009   #3
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

The CarPC is nothing special. An Intel D945GCLF2 motherboard with the built in dual core Atom processor and GMA 950 graphics. More than enough for my (current) needs. The video will initially be just composite video, before I start experimenting with sync-on-green and RGB signals that the BMW LCD expects. The CarPC will be connected to a SpaceNavigator (in the center console) for control, and hooked into the car's IBUS via a Resler IBUS interface.
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Old 12-11-2009   #4
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

As far as rear fill goes...Geo? werewolf? Any of you guys around??
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Old 12-11-2009   #5
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Looks good, but.....
You should either use the crossover, or dont use the crossover on both your component sets. My opinion only.
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Old 12-11-2009   #6
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post
As far as rear fill goes...Geo? werewolf? Any of you guys around??
I would think a mono signal would not work. If the sound is already mono and run into one cable, how (even if you split it into two cables) could the amp filter out the common information? It is all common to both channels in mono so there would be no sound.

What you could do is run the fronts passive also and get l-r rear fill. Or you could get an Alpine H701 and sell the 360.2, and run two-way front/l-r rear fill/sub. The last option is have a headunit with two RCA outs (not sure if you do), run the one set to your 360.2 (connected to midbass, l-r rear fill, and sub) and run the second to your tweets (the JL crossover is high enough @ 5khz on their amps and the tweets are more sesitive to amplitude to t/a isn't as needed--but you would loose eq).

I'm sure it isn't what you wanted to hear, but I hope it helps in your decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiansprings View Post
Looks good, but.....
You should either use the crossover, or dont use the crossover on both your component sets. My opinion only.
WHY???? His plan is to run the front stage active which gives better tuning options if done properly. The rear is just for ambiance, no need to run it active and no need to "hurt" the front stage because of this.

Not trying to sound mean at all, but I do think you should read a bit more about what the OP is trying to do if you don't understand it before giving advice.
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Old 12-11-2009   #7
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by pionkej View Post
I would think a mono signal would not work. If the sound is already mono and run into one cable, how (even if you split it into two cables) could the amp filter out the common information? It is all common to both channels in mono so there would be no sound.

What you could do is run the fronts passive also and get l-r rear fill. Or you could get an Alpine H701 and sell the 360.2, and run two-way front/l-r rear fill/sub. The last option is have a headunit with two RCA outs (not sure if you do), run the one set to your 360.2 (connected to midbass, l-r rear fill, and sub) and run the second to your tweets (the JL crossover is high enough @ 5khz on their amps and the tweets are more sesitive to amplitude to t/a isn't as needed--but you would loose eq).

I'm sure it isn't what you wanted to hear, but I hope it helps in your decision.
Lemme back up, I don't think I may have explained myself correctly. The system is being hooked up to the stock head unit in the BMW. The stock HU has balanced outs for FL, FR, RL and RR. The plan is to derive the L-R signal BEFORE things even hit the 3Sixty by tapping the L+ and R+ from the RL (which consists of +/-) and RR (which consists of +/-) signals. The L+ signal would on the +ve pin of the RCA/wire and the R+ (instead of the usual L-) signal would be on the -ve pin of the RCA/wire.

When this is fed to the 3Sixty (which is "supposed" to accept balanced differential signals starting from v2 units, which is what I have), as far as the 3Sixty is concerned, it will be seeing the difference between the +ve and -ve signals, i.e.

(L+ input) - (R+ input) = L-R signal.

From that point, downstream, it's just a regular signal, except the information carried on it is the difference between L and R channels.

Does that make sense? (or am I completely off base?)

The reason I was asking about the stereo/mono issue is because if I'm running a 2 way active front stage with the 3Sixty, the only input left on the unit that can be TAed and bandpassed is the Center input, and obviously that's mono. I was hoping that once this input gets TA applied to it in the 3Sixty, and then fed to a two channel amp (or two of the 4 channels on the USB 3085, in my case) by splitting the center OUT on the 3Sixty, it would work. I can try and see if it's possible to do any phase switching on one of the signals on the amp and/or switch the +/- wires on that rear Speaker vs the other rear speaker.
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Old 12-11-2009   #8
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

You are going to need both Time delay and EQ for your rear channels. Do you have that covered? I do a L-R set-up and I use a Zapco DC200.2 for my amp which gives me both. I get my L-R set up using the Zapco balanced cables.
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Old 12-11-2009   #9
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiguy View Post
You are going to need both Time delay and EQ for your rear channels. Do you have that covered? I do a L-R set-up and I use a Zapco DC200.2 for my amp which gives me both. I get my L-R set up using the Zapco balanced cables.
Well...since that L-R signal is going into the 3Sixty, it can do TA/EQ etc on that. However, the $64,000 question is that if I'm running two speakers for rear fill, one on each side of the car, do they need L-R and R-L, or can L-R be fed to both of them?

Since L-R is removing all common information between L and R, L-R should "potentially" be the same as R-L, except "maybe" 180 out of phase (which I don't know yet).
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Old 12-11-2009   #10
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

I don't have the Car I have this set up in in my possession right this moment, but a not from my work says that I am running L+ and R+ to each of the left and right channels. That doesn't mean that you want to run mono, because you will want to run separate EQ and TA for each side.
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Old 12-11-2009   #11
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiguy View Post
I don't have the Car I have this set up in in my possession right this moment, but a not from my work says that I am running L+ and R+ to each of the left and right channels. That doesn't mean that you want to run mono, because you will want to run separate EQ and TA for each side.
Now that makes sense, since the path lengths for the left and right rear speakers will be different as seen from the driver's seat. But, what's encouraging is that the same L-R signal can work for both of those speakers. Hmm....I guess, since I have only one channel of processing left on the 3Sixty, I'll live with the less than ideal scenario. Maybe attenuate the nearer rear speaker, bit more than the opposing one?
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Old 12-11-2009   #12
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Doing l-r before the 360 would work and it would remove the center info, but when you run it from the center channel, it would still be mono meaning that the far right sound would come out the left Speaker with the far left sound (so it would still be the same sound out of both speakers just minus "center" information such as vocals). I think it would be better than rear speakers, but still not true rear fill.
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Old 12-11-2009   #13
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by pionkej View Post
Doing l-r before the 360 would work and it would remove the center info, but when you run it from the center channel, it would still be mono meaning that the far right sound would come out the left Speaker with the far left sound (so it would still be the same sound out of both speakers just minus "center" information such as vocals). I think it would be better than rear speakers, but still not true rear fill.
Well, in that case, what would be "true" rear fill? Isn't L-R the same as R-L?? Seriously, I'm not being a dick, just trying to understand. This whole dicking around with rear L/R signals for rear fill, has me totally confused!
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Old 12-12-2009   #14
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

How much delay can you get out of that 360 in the center channel? You will need 25ms or so.
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Old 12-12-2009   #15
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Man, I had a HUGE response typed out and my computer at work shut down. But here is a shortered version.

You can get a l-r signal (centered information cancelled out), bandpass it, eq it, and delay it. That is what is needed for true rear fill. These are all the things needed for proper l-r rear fill. The problem is that the output your using on the 360 is a single mono channel likely into a y-cable that splits the rca's so you have one for both left and right input at the amp. This means that instead of hard left information playing from the left Speaker it will play from the left AND right Speaker (since it is mono) and instead of hard right information playing from the right speaker it will play from the right AND left speaker (again in mono).

EX--If you have a guitar playing on the left side of the stage:
2-way: It will play from the left side front speaker
2-way w/ l-r rear fill: It will play from the left side front and rear speakers
2-way w/ l-r rear fill in mono: It will play from the left side front and the left AND right rear speakers

So you would have information on the left side "pulling" back to the right. Will it be noticeable? I don't know. Personally, I would do everything like you planned and see how it works. If it doesn't work well, just disconnect the rear fill. You could then wait until the JBL MS-8 comes out (it should actually come out in 2010) and it will actually auto eq AND is set up for l-r rear fill. You could put it right in place of the 360 and sell it later. That seems to be the cheapest way to me.

Also, I didn't take you as being a dick. As long as I feel a person has tried there hand at searching (or I feel the need to stop bad advice from being given), I have no problem helping out.
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Old 12-12-2009   #16
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiguy View Post
How much delay can you get out of that 360 in the center channel? You will need 25ms or so.
Oh crap... I just realized (late light bulb moment) that the 3Sixty can delay only up to 5ft, which would equate to roughly 5-5.5ms of delay. Crap crap, that may not be enough for rear fill.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pionkej View Post
Man, I had a HUGE response typed out and my computer at work shut down. But here is a shortered version.

You can get a l-r signal (centered information cancelled out), bandpass it, eq it, and delay it. That is what is needed for true rear fill. These are all the things needed for proper l-r rear fill. The problem is that the output your using on the 360 is a single mono channel likely into a y-cable that splits the rca's so you have one for both left and right input at the amp. This means that instead of hard left information playing from the left Speaker it will play from the left AND right Speaker (since it is mono) and instead of hard right information playing from the right speaker it will play from the right AND left speaker (again in mono).

EX--If you have a guitar playing on the left side of the stage:
2-way: It will play from the left side front speaker
2-way w/ l-r rear fill: It will play from the left side front and rear speakers
2-way w/ l-r rear fill in mono: It will play from the left side front and the left AND right rear speakers

So you would have information on the left side "pulling" back to the right. Will it be noticeable? I don't know. Personally, I would do everything like you planned and see how it works. If it doesn't work well, just disconnect the rear fill. You could then wait until the JBL MS-8 comes out (it should actually come out in 2010) and it will actually auto eq AND is set up for l-r rear fill. You could put it right in place of the 360 and sell it later. That seems to be the cheapest way to me.

Also, I didn't take you as being a dick. As long as I feel a person has tried there hand at searching (or I feel the need to stop bad advice from being given), I have no problem helping out.
pionkej, I very much appreciate the detailed information that you keep providing. Thank you. I'll have to think about this a bit more I guess....
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Old 12-12-2009   #17
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by pionkej View Post
You can get a l-r signal (centered information cancelled out), bandpass it, eq it, and delay it. That is what is needed for true rear fill.
says who? true rear fill? there are many ways to acheive a rear fill that will help add to the front stage and a sense of ambience and openness. I've tried several. I don't think its fair to say a rear mono center will not work unless you have tried it.

I would say hook up the 360 and try it

Pionkej, can you describe your setup now? what are you using or used to achieve true rear fill?


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Old 12-12-2009   #18
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
says who? true rear fill? there are many ways to acheive a rear fill that will help add to the front stage and a sense of ambience and openness. I've tried several. I don't think its fair to say a rear mono center will not work unless you have tried it.

I would say hook up the 360 and try it

Pionkej, can you describe your setup now? what are you using or used to achieve true rear fill?
From what I understood by reading Werewolf's posts, "true" rear fill is how I described it. I also said that he should try it (see bold below) since that was his best option, but from what I had read, it wouldn't be ideal. I honestly wasn't trying to tell the guy he couldn't do it, just what might be an obstacle from my view.

Also, I currently have no setup. I sold my 300zx TT (2 seater) and will by selling my 1989 Nissan Hardbody Pickup (little light in the safety department) in an effort to get a single "fun/functional/safe" vehicle that will work for starting a family. I am planning to use the new Pioneer P01 (already own) to set up a 3-way active front with sub. I also plan to look for a used Zapco DC200.2. I want to run it off the pre-amp midrange signal from my front. It already is bandpassed and eq'ed (which I can change with the DC should I need to), and I can add the additional delay with the DC and get the l-r by hacking up the symbilink cable like geo showed. That was the plan anyway.

I may end up going H701 with mono l-r based on what you are telling me. It would be easier than my plan. Again, I had never read that mono was a good option for l-r rear fill, and I don't think the OP had either since that is why he asked the question. I was going off what I had read from others, not what I had personally tried in this situation (which is again why I said what I said in bold below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pionkej View Post
Man, I had a HUGE response typed out and my computer at work shut down. But here is a shortered version.

You can get a l-r signal (centered information cancelled out), bandpass it, eq it, and delay it. That is what is needed for true rear fill. These are all the things needed for proper l-r rear fill. The problem is that the output your using on the 360 is a single mono channel likely into a y-cable that splits the rca's so you have one for both left and right input at the amp. This means that instead of hard left information playing from the left Speaker it will play from the left AND right Speaker (since it is mono) and instead of hard right information playing from the right speaker it will play from the right AND left speaker (again in mono).

EX--If you have a guitar playing on the left side of the stage:
2-way: It will play from the left side front speaker
2-way w/ l-r rear fill: It will play from the left side front and rear speakers
2-way w/ l-r rear fill in mono: It will play from the left side front and the left AND right rear speakers

So you would have information on the left side "pulling" back to the right. Will it be noticeable? I don't know. Personally, I would do everything like you planned and see how it works. If it doesn't work well, just disconnect the rear fill. You could then wait until the JBL MS-8 comes out (it should actually come out in 2010) and it will actually auto eq AND is set up for l-r rear fill. You could put it right in place of the 360 and sell it later. That seems to be the cheapest way to me.

Also, I didn't take you as being a dick. As long as I feel a person has tried there hand at searching (or I feel the need to stop bad advice from being given), I have no problem helping out.
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Old 12-12-2009   #19
 
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

I appreciate the info guys. Here's another thought and it gets more complex... Forgetting the issue of the 3Sixty having only about 5.5ms of delay for a second, let's focus on the single channel issue.

That channel can obviously have only L-R or R-L, but not both, and you can apply TA and EQ to it. I understand that the delay "ideally" should be different for the rear left and rear right "rear fill" speakers, but these are going to be attenuated a lot, and I'm not sure how much "actual" difference may be there between the two approaches.

Now, if we have only one channel for rear fill and it's L-R, we could potentially also use amp bridging to get L-R and R-L to the respective speakers, couldn't we?

Quoting WhteRabbit here from the thread "Rear Fill: do you use it" -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
to my knowledge, the opposite. a bridged amp will sum the input signals. By inverting one signal, the summation will result in an L-R (as in, L + (-R)) signal. This would be run as a bridged output to a rear speaker.

By running the two rear speakers in series, they both get this L-R signal.

Finally, by inverting the right speaker, we invert the signal to get a -(L-R) signal, or an R-L signal.

Thus, by starting with only L and R and a bridgable amp and NO processing, we have rearfill where the left driver receives L-R and the right driver receives R-L
That would potentially work, right?
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Old 12-12-2009   #20
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

That only works on amps that aren't meant to be bridged or have a bridge switch (where you actually flip a switch if you want to bridge channels-for l-r you just leave it unswitched). These are old school amps we're talking about here. Like some old A/D/S Power plates.

Newer amps flip the phase automatically when they "sense" the channels are briged. Which means the L + (-R) doesn't happen, it just runs the two speakers in series at an 8 ohm load and doesn't cancel the center information.

You are better off with your original idea. Since BMW's have balanced lines, you can get l-r from there.

EDIT: Try it though on the amps you have. When I tried it in my truck, no center information was cancelled out.
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Old 12-12-2009   #21
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

Thanks Pion for the explanation. you are right. werewolf's idea of rear fill is exactly what you described, however, and I want to apologize in advance if I seemed argumentative, is that you can still acheive some good results with a less than perfect setup

my experience with the delay is 15-20ms is ideal...5ms was not enough. you might have to attenuate it more as a tradeoff. it created an echo effect if you will and made the midrange sound strange.

I dont have an answer to the other question you asked OP


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Last edited by BigRed; 12-12-2009 at 12:37 PM.. Reason: edit text
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Old 12-12-2009   #22
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

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Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
Thanks Pion for the explanation. you are right. werewolf's idea of rear fill is exactly what you described, however, and I want to apologize in advance if I seemed argumentative, is that you can still acheive some good results with a less than perfect setup

my experience with the delay is 15-20ms is ideal...5ms was not enough. you might have to attenuate it more as a tradeoff. it created an echo effect if you will and made the midrange sound strange.

I dont have an answer to the other question you asked OP
No offense taken. I like when discussion can be opened up like this as it betters everyone (or at least anyone who searches in the future before asking the same question ). I honestly had no idea that could work in mono, so it is very good to know that it has been tried and people have satisfactory results.
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Old 12-12-2009   #23
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

[QUOTE=kapone;904793]Oh crap... I just realized (late light bulb moment) that the 3Sixty can delay only up to 5ft, which would equate to roughly 5-5.5ms of delay. Crap crap, that may not be enough for rear fill.....



More correct would be that it definitely won't be enough. And that doesn't include any delay that you might add to the other channels, which would subtract from what you send to the L-R rears. I like the DC200.2 idea.
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

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More correct would be that it definitely won't be enough. And that doesn't include any delay that you might add to the other channels, which would subtract from what you send to the L-R rears. I like the DC200.2 idea.
Well, my thinking is that the 740 is a pretty big car... and the rear fill speakers will be in the rear deck at the farthest ends, so it is already a fair distance away from the front seat, and even with the 5ft max delay in the 360, it "might" be ok. Obviously I won't know until I try it. I think that's what I'm gonna do. Hook up the damn thing and see if I blow up something.
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Default Re: Rear fill, L-R stereo/mono question

What if you just did not connect the center or subwoofer input on the 360? The 360 should create the center image ( and sub channel ) for you?

I have used the center channel output ( with no center input connected ) for rear fill with good results. (If there were more outputs available on the 360 I would do a stereo rear fill, unless the rear channel was a single Speaker in the center of the rear deck though.)

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