View Poll Results: What's your low frequency goal?
Flat to 20Hz 34 52.31%
Flat to 30Hz 21 32.31%
Flat to 10Hz 10 15.38%
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Old 06-14-2010   #1
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Default BASS! How Low Can You Go?

I have a couple of Diyma twelves and a pair of TC Sounds fifteens collecting dust in my garage at the moment. I've been toying with the idea of making an infrasonic sub. We're talking about fifteen, maybe even ten hertz.

An infrasonic subwoofer would be an exercise in futility if there's no infrasonic content in my music and movies. Therefore, I decided to find out what's in there.

These are tracks I would actually listen to, not "demo" tracks, or organ CDs and the like.

I am ranking these tracks in descending order, from one hertz to about forty.


Here's a spectrum analysis of "Ask Yourself" by Plastikman. We see the beat at 44hz, along with a second harmonic at 88hz. When listening to the track, you can hear an ominous ambient rumble in the track. Over my fifteens, it's audible, but buried beneath the beat. In the spectrum analysis, we see that it digs all the way down to THREE HERTZ, peaking just 8dB below the bassline!


According to Geddes, three subs improve the bass response in-room. If three is good, I figured eight is great. After installing eight subs, this was the track that really caught my attention. It sounds *completely* different with a serious set of subs. In the frequency analysis, we can see why. On a typical system, we'll hear the bassline at 46hz. But look what's going on down deep - the fundamental is actually at 23hz! That explains the added "weight" over the eight subs.


Here's an analysis of "The Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground. There's serious content all the way down to 30hz. You can see that this track would be forgiving on a cheap sub, because the bass line is "doubled". So this would mask 2nd harmonic distortion. Compare that bass line to the Plastikman bassline, where the fundamental is not only low, it's much louder than the harmonic. (IE, the Plastikman track will show off a clean sub.)



Here's a couple samples from the Matrix. The first is a thunderclap, the second is from the shootout scene where the concrete walls are crumbling. Not a whole lot here below 30hz. It looks like it's been high-passed. Looking at this graph, you can see how it would also be forgiving of a cheap sub, due to the spectrum content.

To sum it up, if you're speakers only go to 30hz, you're probably not missing a whole lot. Almost all the "bass" energy is in the octave from forty to eighty hertz. But there *are* a handful of tracks with synthetic bass lines that can only be heard properly if your speakers are flat to 20, or even 18hz. And yes, there's even bass down to 3hz.

Analysis was done with Audacity, using the instructions from Sourceforge.

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Old 06-14-2010   #2
 
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

You know, I've always thought you were awesome Patrick, but now that you've posted a spectral analysis of "The Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground, you are near approaching mythical Hero status...

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Old 06-14-2010   #3
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

When you say "flat to 20hz" do you mean measurably flat or audibly flat? As in graphs will show flat or SOUNDS flat?
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Old 06-14-2010   #4
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawdawg View Post
You know, I've always thought you were awesome Patrick, but now that you've posted a spectral analysis of "The Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground, you are near approaching mythical Hero status...
(from memory)
Just a freestyle
meanwhile
keep the beat kickin'
sweat drippin'
girlies in the limo eating chicken
oops! don't get no grease on the panty hose
I love you rover, move over, I gotta blow my nose!

Damn, I miss the days when rap was actually good...

Being that I just use a single 12, I have no delusions about accurately reproducing those kind of frequencies. I can't even tell the difference with my Subsonic Filter on or off, so I leave it on to not waste power.

Let us know when you get your 3Hz tone faithfully reproduced. "Yo, yo, my Donk be hittin all the way down to DC!"

Who gives a fuck, I can't hear above 15kHz anyway...
Wtf????? Where this shyt com from?? Nd why the Hell they point u out??? Who told u.this? Dats Fukn childish
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Old 06-14-2010   #5
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

im a big fan of low lows, i built this about a week ago, having lots of fun.

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/r...bow/60sbox.jpg

1500wrms available.

this has a nice very low sub kick thing going on


YouTube - Eminem - Yellow Brick Road

played to loud for to long and it makes me feel quite ill

i have a 3 way front that does pretty good down to about 60 hz,

my goal for my subwoofer is '60ndown' with lots of authority and accuracy @ 70 mph, leaning heavily(weighted) towards stronger output the closer to 25 hz it gets so its clear and clean over (road noise 70 + or - db from 20-500hz)

i drive a mini van

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I totally don't need one of these so bad that I want one.

Last edited by 60ndown; 06-14-2010 at 06:55 PM..
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Old 06-14-2010   #6
 
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

I have to cross my SX around 40hz to play regular music, or else tone it WAY down with the sub output via h/u. I know tuning @ 26hz isn't exactly the same as <15hz, but the low end reproduction is far superior to that of one in the 32+ ranges. I wouldn't have it any other way!

That is pretty interesting to see those graphs though.
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Old 06-14-2010   #7
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Thumbs up Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

I think when my subs dig really deep they hit the 40's.

What kind of power are we talking to reveal any sensations below say 15 hZ ? ... or can you actually hear at frequencies below say 18 hZ ?


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Old 06-14-2010   #8
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Excellent thread!!!

I can get to 20hz ear flat. Well, I dunno. I feel more pressure in my ears and head, but it doesn't really sound as quite as loud as 30. I scoop the EQ out a bit from 25-50. It'll play down to 10 shaking the shit outta the car, but there's an undefeatable L/R ssf on my amp at that point.

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Old 06-14-2010   #9
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

^Well, human ears are special and won't be same as each other. Some may able to hear it, some may not. And that's subjective to each individual.
Objectively, a properly calibrated mic and system may able to "see" those frequencies. Also we have to see how good is the recording and the equipments uesd to reproduce those so-called low frequencies.

If just playing a blind song, without the aid of machine, I doubt everyone can really tell accurately those low frequencies.

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Old 06-15-2010   #10
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

A car is probably the only real environment where conventional equipment has any hope of playing a <10hz tone with any authority. Cabin gain at 10hz is probably in the magnitude of 30db's in most vehicles. Regardless, still not something I'd be interested in. If you want tones that low a rotary fan style subwoofer is the only thing that gives you a good enough impedence match to the air to do it reliably. Beyond that it's ALOT of extra woofers, money and space to get any kind of output that low. Plus very few amps will even go that low, which is saying something lol, it's rare that electonics are the limiter.
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Old 06-15-2010   #11
 
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

2007 remake of Cars That Go Boom by Alize & Champaign:





vs. the original by L'Trimm:



Bass music has changed over the years

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Old 06-15-2010   #12
 
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Young Jeezy "Put On" drops to 25-27Hz. I can't hear anything below about that. By 20Hz, I hear nothing...I feel it only.

If you've not heard of LLT (Large Low Tuning) for Home Theater, than you haven't seen/heard HT done right. We build 10-15cf boxes (per sub) & port them subsonic (typically 12-15 Hz) to make action movies come alive. There is TONS of subsonic stuff in your typical movie. You'd be surprised what happens.

Last edited by mosconiac; 06-15-2010 at 08:45 AM..
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Old 06-15-2010   #13
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3mpest View Post
A car is probably the only real environment where conventional equipment has any hope of playing a <10hz tone with any authority. Cabin gain at 10hz is probably in the magnitude of 30db's in most vehicles. Regardless, still not something I'd be interested in. If you want tones that low a rotary fan style subwoofer is the only thing that gives you a good enough impedence match to the air to do it reliably. Beyond that it's ALOT of extra woofers, money and space to get any kind of output that low. Plus very few amps will even go that low, which is saying something lol, it's rare that electonics are the limiter.
Thigpen demo'd his rotary sub at the same show where Geddes demo'd his Summas... That was a fun weekend.

It was surprising how audible 5hz was; then again, I may have been hearing the harmonics.


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Old 06-15-2010   #14
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post

It was surprising how audible 5hz was; then again, I may have been hearing the harmonics.

Of course you were hearing harmonics. But you were feeling the fundamental. Good mind trick there. The interesting thing though is that you're in the 4th order harmonic before you're even in the audible range of human hearing. The amount of power required for a 4th, or 5th/6th order (more realistically) to be heard with any authority is immense. Makes sense the need for multiple woofers in this kind of application.

WOW!

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Old 06-15-2010   #15
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Do you have a link to that Sourceforge tutorial. I'm trying to analyze a couple of song, and pretty much have it, but I could use some guidance.

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Old 06-15-2010   #16
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl205 View Post
Do you have a link to that Sourceforge tutorial. I'm trying to analyze a couple of song, and pretty much have it, but I could use some guidance.
Here's how to do it:
  • Download Audacity (free)
  • Open an mp3 or a wav in it. To analyse "The Matrix" I extracted the audio using Goldwave.
  • Highlight part of the track. Not the whole thing - just part of it. The reason that you have to highlight part of the track is because it's easier to see the bass content by looking at a few seconds, instead of the entire track.
  • Choose "Analyze" and then "Plot Spectrum."
  • At this point you'll have a graph like the ones I posted. I used a logarithmic scale because that's the same kind of scale we use for frequency response measurements.

And that's it!

It's fun to see how a lot of tracks already include bass harmonics. This is one of the reasons that cheap subwoofers sound good on some music, but not others. The distortion is already "in the mix."

Once I finish building this 15hz tapped horn, I'll have to add some infrasonic harmonics to some tunes, and see how that works out. (kinda like that Audiocontrol processor does.)


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Old 06-15-2010   #17
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Okay...that's the same thing I did. The problem I'm having is that I can't save an image of the plot. I'm running it in Ubuntu. I may switch over to Windows to try it.

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Old 06-15-2010   #18
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Here's a few symphonic tracks that I like to listen to, depending on the mood I'm in.

Flim and The BB's- Funhouse
This is an older electronic jazz song...in fact it's one of the first songs made entirely on a computer. It's fairly dynamic, but it has a sub-testing crash about 5 minutes in.



Erich Kunzel- Start Trek/ Klingon Battle
This has some nice low rumbling about 3 minutes in..



Erich Kunzel- Superman/ Planet Krypton
This is an awesome track with a low rumble that builds up toward the end


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Old 06-15-2010   #19
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Damn Al, that first one must be KILLER on most ported setups. I bet that unloads most subs to mechanical limits QUICK.
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Old 06-15-2010   #20
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

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Originally Posted by ItalynStylion View Post
Damn Al, that first one must be KILLER on most ported setups. I bet that unloads most subs to mechanical limits QUICK.
It hits about like the cannons on the 1812 Overture...one and done

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Old 06-15-2010   #21
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

I run a 15Hz subsonic because that is the lowest one, lol. I had 20Hz with my quad 12s IB. If I listened to tones 30-35 were a little louder not much, and 20 and 50 were about the same volume....by ear. Starting on my new baffle for the pair of 15s now that model to go lower better than the 12s, so we will see.

I get a lot of stuff around 20Hz in music, not all of it is actual music some is just 'presence' or whatever you want to call it. Like a bass drum hit, they go down there and you get the wump and you don't if your subs stop at 35. I'd guess the 12s went under 20 but I don't know how much dB they had. The 20 Hz tone is more like pressure than sound. All in all it is much the same effect as a big HT sub, you feel it, it is super fun in the car IMO.

Lol, my IB subs are always unloaded.

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Old 06-15-2010   #22
 
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

I'm working on designing a home sub right now... I'm aiming for 15hz flat and am considering getting a Maelstrom 21" sub w/passive radiators to do the trick...

I can't do an IB set up because I don't have enough room for a BIG box and the place is rented so walls are out of the question...

Any secret tips for hitting 15hz @/high SPL in-home in a small-ish space(lets say max 15-20cu. ft.)?

(I'm not trying to jack your thread, Patrick, so sorry if this is overboard.)
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Old 06-15-2010   #23
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

AE had a setup with PRs, I don't recall how low it went. They used a pair opposed, said the big PRs vibrate a lot if you don't oppose them.

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Old 06-16-2010   #24
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izay123 View Post
I'm working on designing a home sub right now... I'm aiming for 15hz flat and am considering getting a Maelstrom 21" sub w/passive radiators to do the trick...

I can't do an IB set up because I don't have enough room for a BIG box and the place is rented so walls are out of the question...

Any secret tips for hitting 15hz @/high SPL in-home in a small-ish space(lets say max 15-20cu. ft.)?

(I'm not trying to jack your thread, Patrick, so sorry if this is overboard.)
Actually I'm in the same boat! I had an eight-sub setup downstairs, but decided to tear it down, because it dominated the whole room. (It was basically a platform that the sub sat on, and it was 16 square feet.)

There was a couple of problems with the design:
  • It was ugly
  • More than half the woofers were cheap and conventional. (Audax HT240GOs)
  • The TC Sounds fifteens sounded clean, but the Audax woofers were audibly colored

Based on that experience, I am building a 15hz tapped horn using a pair of Diyma 12s. I'll post the design on diyaudio.com once I'm done. It should work with some other woofers too, like the Eminence Lab 12.

It looks a lot like this:



Mine is a LOT bigger than this - over eight feet tall.

I'm using push-pull mounting to cancel second harmonic, so the box gets big in a hurry. It's big enough that I can stand inside of it.


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Old 06-16-2010   #25
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Default Re: BASS! How Low Can You Go?

When mounting push pull how did you manage to get the motor structure of the R12 inside?
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