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Old 09-08-2010   #1
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Default Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Well it's pretty obvious 99% of the systems we install in our cars have the subwoofer in the trunk or rear area of the car... given this fact I can see why bass waves would be coming from the rear -> front and give that punchy bass hit in your back... But has anyone been able to create the illusion the bass is hitting from the front? That's one thing my system is lacking.. The concert sound is there and the stage is phenomenal.. I just miss the kick drum hit in the chest.

Aura bass shakers mounted in the rear of the seat I would image might help if they were reverse phase.. but maybe a seatbelt caddy mount would be better. Haha.

Any ideas?

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Old 09-08-2010   #2
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Chest impact bass can be tricky to get, especially when you want a system to be able to do low bass with authority as well, since very low bass and tight chest punchy bass is something that's not usually found in the same sub/enclosure combination.

Shakers won't help here, since it's the physical impact of the pressure wave in the air that is what we mainly feel in this frequency range.

You want pro audio style woofers up front, at least 8'' to get the effect you are looking for.
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Old 09-08-2010   #3
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Either that or get a car with the trunk up front.

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Old 09-08-2010   #4
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

No, it's all in the EQ. Woofers in the back and midrange in the front works fine. Concentrate on flat midrange from 160 up.

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Old 09-08-2010   #5
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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Either that or get a car with the trunk up front.
VW Bug?

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Old 09-08-2010   #6
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Listen to Andy. It doesn't matter if your subwoofers are in front of you or behind you.
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Old 09-08-2010   #7
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

According to my RTA readings my midrange is pretty flat already. There's 1 track by Tool that really gives me the hit in the chest I'm looking for. Otherwise it lacks. Could be a result of my 5.25" subwoofer (midbass) speakers.

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Old 09-08-2010   #8
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

i've been able to accomplish the illusion of up-front bass, but the tactile impact still comes from behind. i've honestly never been in a vehicle where the tactile impact can't be localized from behind, even with a good front bass illusion. two different things imho.

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Old 09-08-2010   #9
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

I hear ya. The up-front bass is just about right. But impact is still from the back.

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Old 09-08-2010   #10
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Even with JUST the midbasses playing I still feel it in my back. The seats vibrate just enough when a hit is hard enough to feel it my my chest that it's also in my back. I'm using pro audio 8's with 125 watts on tap too.
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Old 09-08-2010   #11
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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According to my RTA readings my midrange is pretty flat already. There's 1 track by Tool that really gives me the hit in the chest I'm looking for. Otherwise it lacks. Could be a result of my 5.25" subwoofer (midbass) speakers.
Some songs are simply mastered a certain way where you might appreciate the drums more. You can't have a different EQ curve for each song so you have to live with that.

Basically it depends a lot on the album\song moe then just your setup.
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Old 09-08-2010   #12
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BowDown View Post
Well it's pretty obvious 99% of the systems we install in our cars have the subwoofer in the trunk or rear area of the car... given this fact I can see why bass waves would be coming from the rear -> front and give that punchy bass hit in your back... But has anyone been able to create the illusion the bass is hitting from the front? That's one thing my system is lacking.. The concert sound is there and the stage is phenomenal.. I just miss the kick drum hit in the chest.

Aura bass shakers mounted in the rear of the seat I would image might help if they were reverse phase.. but maybe a seatbelt caddy mount would be better. Haha.

Any ideas?
In home audio they say that your ears can't localize sounds below about 80Hz and that is why the subwoofer can be placed away from the regular speakers and it all sounds like it is comming from the front. If you can get front speakers to cover down to 80Hz and crossover there, theoretically you can get the illusion of deep bass comming from the front like a home audio system.

The kicker is that if you sit close to the sub/rear speakers, then you still feel the pressure from the sub/back speakers (so rear seat passangers may not be sonically fooled into thiking the sound is comming from the front.)

I don't know how bass pressurizes a car interior though, with the sound so confined and reflected, so the home audio idea might not be applicable, but human perception of sound below 80Hz as non or maybe omni directional should still apply. I can't say that I personally have heard this work in a car, but I am close to completing a car audio installation and I will be giving it a try.

Now if I can just get this dam RF 3SIXTY.1 processor to accept bluetooth control signals.....

Last edited by Exit9; 09-08-2010 at 02:44 PM..
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Old 09-08-2010   #13
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BowDown View Post
Well it's pretty obvious 99% of the systems we install in our cars have the subwoofer in the trunk or rear area of the car... given this fact I can see why bass waves would be coming from the rear -> front and give that punchy bass hit in your back... But has anyone been able to create the illusion the bass is hitting from the front? That's one thing my system is lacking.. The concert sound is there and the stage is phenomenal.. I just miss the kick drum hit in the chest.

Aura bass shakers mounted in the rear of the seat I would image might help if they were reverse phase.. but maybe a seatbelt caddy mount would be better. Haha.

Any ideas?
In home audio they say that your ears can't localize sounds below about 80Hz and that is why the subwoofer can be placed away from the regular speakers and it all sounds like it is comming from the front. If you can get front speakers to cover down to 80Hz and crossover there, theoretically you can get the illusion of deep bass comming from the front like a home audio system.

The kicker is that if you sit close to the sub/rear speakers then you still feel the pressure from the sub/back speakers (so rear seat passangers may not be sonically fooled into thiking the sound is comming from the front.)

I don't know how bass pressurizes a car interior though with the sound so confined and reflected, so the home audio idea might not be applicable, but human perception of sound below 80Hz as non or maybe omni directional should still apply. I can't say that I personally have heard this work in a car, but I am close to completing a car audio installation and I will be giving it a try.

Now if I can just get this RF3SIXTY.1 processor to accept bluetooth control signals.....
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Old 09-08-2010   #14
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit9 View Post
In home audio they say that your ears can't localize sounds below about 80Hz and that is why the subwoofer can be placed away from the regular speakers and it all sounds like it is comming from the front. If you can get front speakers to cover down to 80Hz and crossover there, theoretically you can get the illusion of deep bass comming from the front like a home audio system.

The kicker is that if you sit close to the sub/rear speakers then you still feel the pressure from the sub/back speakers (so rear seat passangers may not be sonically fooled into thiking the sound is comming from the front.)

I don't know how bass pressurizes a car interior though with the sound so confined and reflected, so the home audio idea might not be applicable, but human perception of sound below 80Hz as non or maybe omni directional should still apply. I can't say that I personally have heard this work in a car, but I am close to completing a car audio installation and I will be giving it a try.

Now if I can just get this RF3SIXTY.1 processor to accept bluetooth control signals.....
Where a speaker becomes omnidirectional depends upon the dimensions of the room it's placed in. Cars are smaller than a room so you can actually usually go higher than 80hz without bass localizing. I have a pretty big car for a 2 door car, it's a cadillac eldorado so it's the size of a regular 4 door sedan. However, bass doesn't localize at 120hz. I dont' have anything that resonates at that frequency, but unless you turn your head sideways the sound does appear to be coming from up front more than in the back, and that's with no front speakers even on. Vibrating panels making noise and thinks of that nature are usually the issue more than anythign in my experience. Getting the actual sounds in front of you is usually pretty easy.
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Old 09-08-2010   #15
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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Vibrating panels making noise and thinks of that nature are usually the issue more than anythign in my experience. Getting the actual sounds in front of you is usually pretty easy.
I agree...vibrations are just too hard to overcome in the car...no way around it.

Even a very well deaden(Multiple types of deadener) SQ comp car with 8" midbasses upfront playing down to roll off and 15" subs in back crossover pretty low broke its composure a bit on the real low pipe organ stuff.

Cars that I listened to that had subs upfront were fun in the bass department.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...c_Eldorado.jpg

http://www.jondailey.net/comp/dales_tbrid_5.jpg
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Old 09-08-2010   #16
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

I can't imagine that second pic with the sub in the dash off the windsheild could sound good. That's a little too close to the sub. No way for the bass wave to form.

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Old 09-08-2010   #17
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Enclosure design do have affect sometimes.

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Old 09-08-2010   #18
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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I agree...vibrations are just too hard to overcome in the car...no way around it.

Even a very well deaden(Multiple types of deadener) SQ comp car with 8" midbasses upfront playing down to roll off and 15" subs in back crossover pretty low broke its composure a bit on the real low pipe organ stuff.

Cars that I listened to that had subs upfront were fun in the bass department.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...c_Eldorado.jpg

http://www.jondailey.net/comp/dales_tbrid_5.jpg
lol I own a cadillac eldorado, I always liked the look of that red caddy. I wish I knew who did those grills! IIRC he had horns in his dash up top as well in that car, I think that's what the white shape on the dash is, grill cloth to cover the horns as my caddy is the about the same year and doesn't have that.
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Old 09-08-2010   #19
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Actually Aura made a bass shaker that was inside the front of a vest you'd wear to play video games. I'd recommend buying two Aura Bass Shaker PRO's first. You only need a small 100-200w amp to run them and I recommend a secondary volume controller which I can supply. This allows you to bleed it in our out to your taste. Would keep costs down too. Every year we buy a bunch of them from Parts Express when they do their free shipping and put them on sale for $25 each.. Everyone that tries them loves them and we quickly run out. For those that haven't tried them, the AutoSound 2000 guys showed that they yield +6db more felt bass than a JL W6 behind the driver. To transfer that much energy through the air requires just volumes of moving air and high BL force. The bass shakers are a MUCH more efficient as they couple directly. Also cheaper and use less power than needing four 18's and 20kw to get the bump you want.
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Old 09-08-2010   #20
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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lol I own a cadillac eldorado, I always liked the look of that red caddy. I wish I knew who did those grills! IIRC he had horns in his dash up top as well in that car, I think that's what the white shape on the dash is, grill cloth to cover the horns as my caddy is the about the same year and doesn't have that.
Actually name a place in the caddy and I bet there were speakers there. Ive seen it apart many times through its many many revisions.
When Larry won Finals 1st, it was USD horns under the dash w TAD drivers.
I forget what midbass in doors.

that car used dash mounted mids. center channel. door mounted and dash mounted mids. horns firing under dash, behind the dash firing up.
There really was not much left of the dash itself. only a few inches of plastic held it together.
It also went through just about every speaker brand possible.

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Old 09-08-2010   #21
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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Actually name a place in the caddy and I bet there were speakers there. Ive seen it apart many times through its many many revisions.
When Larry won Finals 1st, it was USD horns under the dash w TAD drivers.
I forget what midbass in doors.

that car used dash mounted mids. center channel. door mounted and dash mounted mids. horns firing under dash, behind the dash firing up.
There really was not much left of the dash itself. only a few inches of plastic held it together.
It also went through just about every speaker brand possible.
haha nice I didn't know all that. I've got horns under the dash right now and 8's in the kickpanels. Probably hacking the dash apart very soon to add a center channel. Did you hear the car in each iteration and have any idea what sounded best? I've always wanted to try horns up top to get rid of center console issues, but I don't know if it's worth it. I may just switch back to mini bodied horns since I think they have a tighter dispersion pattern. I already pulled the parking brake out and can put them all the way to the left and right. I swapped them out for a set of fullbodies and they just dont' sound quite as pretty. Tonally they are better, but they seem to lack some detail and definetly dont' image as well. I do get a nice stage depth from them since my compression drivers are basically touching the firewall.
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Old 09-09-2010   #22
 
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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I can't imagine that second pic with the sub in the dash off the windsheild could sound good. That's a little too close to the sub. No way for the bass wave to form.
Think about what you're saying here, a 40hz bass wave is 28' long, you think a sub that's 5/6' away in the boot vers that one on the dash at 2/3' away is going to make any difference to a wave thats's 28' long?

If sound needed distance to "form" then headphones wouldn't work below 5khz or so...
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Old 09-09-2010   #23
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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I can't imagine that second pic with the sub in the dash off the windsheild could sound good. That's a little too close to the sub. No way for the bass wave to form.
I can't say how it did playing pipe organ fult tilt but....At moderate volumes the concert bass drum had attack and weight when listening to classical music. I did not have a lot of time in the car but I loved the sound of Dale Fontenot T-Bird...I think it Won IASCA the year I listened to it.

Anyway, the old school SQ "The Reaper" Intrepid had 4 FOCAL 5WS-subs( 5") on the dash being powered with about a grand....hard to believe that thing won so many awards with that sub stage (The three 15's were turned off for SQ listening) but I was told it had good impact. (I don't think they were using the Planet krypton tracl bacl then? )

Several others have done dash subs...including Gary Bigg's "Big Meat" dually that has a 10WGTi under the dash. i think he was saying it was some of the best upfront bas he has had.
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Old 09-09-2010   #24
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

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haha nice I didn't know all that. I've got horns under the dash right now and 8's in the kickpanels. Probably hacking the dash apart very soon to add a center channel. Did you hear the car in each iteration and have any idea what sounded best? I've always wanted to try horns up top to get rid of center console issues, but I don't know if it's worth it. I may just switch back to mini bodied horns since I think they have a tighter dispersion pattern. I already pulled the parking brake out and can put them all the way to the left and right. I swapped them out for a set of fullbodies and they just dont' sound quite as pretty. Tonally they are better, but they seem to lack some detail and definetly dont' image as well. I do get a nice stage depth from them since my compression drivers are basically touching the firewall.
I didnt hear every variation. Larry's Caddy was always very loud and very Dynamic. Tonality went up and down depending on the set up.

Ive always used mini horns when I use horns.. use some absorption on the center console to break up that reflection and will help a ton

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Old 09-09-2010   #25
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Default Re: Punch in the chest, not in the back?

Bass thump cames from good midbass/midrange. A sub that sounds at the trunk has too much output.
The sub must blend seemless with the midbass drivers. A phase flip or some delay sometimes solves the problem.
If you are a bassfreak, use the bigger and most powerfull midbasses up front.

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Last edited by Hernan; 09-09-2010 at 05:00 PM..
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