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Old 11-13-2010   #1
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Default Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Okay, want to generate some thoughtful conversation here on achieving up front bass.

So, here are my thoughts...

It's possible to achieve "up front bass" illusion with a well integrated mid and sub.

It's not possibly to achieve "up front bass IMPACT" without a decent sized, high output midbass driver in the front of the car.

I think there is a disconnect between these two results and most people are looking for a high impact up front bass solution, while many preach on here the ability to cleverly trick the mind with T/A and phasing, eq, etc. all the while using smaller mids...

While I don't disagree, what happens when you get any sort of volume from the system that only provides the illusion of upfront bass. As volume increases, the "up front bass illusion" slowly drags itself closer and closer to the rear of the vehicle. Is it really possible to achieve dynamic up front bass while using 6.5 mids or lower powered or lower xmax drivers? Or is it just an illusion that will fade away as volume increases?

I would wager that it is not possible to really achieve the impact without more cone area in the front.

Watching BowDown's thread and putting a sub up in his dash has got me thinking a bit more about how to achieve the "impact" that so many of us want. I have also recently finished my install, and have high output 8" midwoofers pulling midbass duty while three 10 wgti subs anchor the low down. The impact is seamless, and ALL up front. No matter how loud I turn it up, the stage and impact stays up front.

I'm not sure putting a sub in the front is the most efficient way of getting bass up front. While I am hoping to generate some thoughtful comments from those who are in the know, I think the take away for this is that you can't simply have the impact in the front that you want without increasing the effective cone area in the front of the car.

Thoughts?
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Old 11-13-2010   #2
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

You can have a sub in the front and if it resonates thru the cabin at all it will sound like it's coming from somewhere else

Big midbass's do help


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Old 11-13-2010   #3
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

First, it makes sense to define "where", in frequency, the desired "impact" comes from.

Imagine a big-ass kettle drum, for example. Strike that drum ... you want to "feel" that impact. If you examine the response of that drum, in time, you'll find an initial "attack", followed by a longer decay or "tail".

It's important to realize that the initial "attack" is much HIGHER in frequency than you think. The "attack" does not come from your subs, it comes from other drivers in your system. If the crossover is well-integrated, all drivers together create a seamless reproduction ... in frequency, and in time. And you don't need subs upfront, to create the "impact" of the attack upfront.

If you haven't done so already, try this : find a system that's tuned great. Play some great music, with the "impact" you're looking for. Then, turn off ALL drivers in the system EXCEPT the subs. Shut them all OFF, except the subs. Re-play the exact same tracks.

Is the "impact" still present?

Now, i'm not arguing against some stout midbass drivers I'm just saying that, for the most part, the lowest octave (or maybe two) isn't where the real "impact" is.
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Old 11-13-2010   #4
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Matty, I can definately say that a 6.5" can have all the impact you require up to a certain spl of course but it can hang up to 100-105db and keep the bass well up front, don't attempt unless its deep up in the kick panel corner loaded off-axis though. Rite now i don't even run the full system, i use my factory radio powering some fiberblob-kick panels i threw together and suprising it can shake my clothes and thats with cheap generic speakers in them too.

oh forgot to say, you should hear mic10is's bmw if you want up front bass impact!

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Old 11-13-2010   #5
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

This is actually something I've been thinking about lately myself. In my case, I've got some nice beefy fronts (Kicker QS 65.2 - don't hate on the Kickers, they actually sound very good), but my SUV has a very far forward position for the front speakers. So basically, even though my speakers are pretty beefy (and put out great midbass sound wise) they never feel beastly, the far less impressive Infinity Reference components in my gf's PT Cruiser feel much more authoritative since they're right on your leg up by you.

I've had 2 major lines of though on how to correct this. First is the method of adding a front subwoofer (given my design limitations, it'd have to be small, probably a 6" woofer, and this would possibly cause issues with my actual sub stage. Amplifying it would also be a possible issue, and mounting would require either significant modifications to my center console, or be run under the front seats, which don't have much room (plus this is where my tool kit and power inverter are housed).

The other option is basically what we're discussing. I don't *need* more front bass or midbass. I need more impact from it. So it's possible that a tactile transducer such as the Auras on PE (or better yet the Daytons, they're cheaper and require less power, meaning I can run them off my HU as opposed to needing another amp - my HU lets me set the rear speaker outputs to sub outputs) may work well. This could provide the extra "kick" I'm looking for, without me needing to go the actual sub route.

I've never used tactile transducers before, anyone have any thoughts about this idea?
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Old 11-13-2010   #6
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
First, it makes sense to define "where", in frequency, the desired "impact" comes from.

Imagine a big-ass kettle drum, for example. Strike that drum ... you want to "feel" that impact. If you examine the response of that drum, in time, you'll find an initial "attack", followed by a longer decay or "tail".

It's important to realize that the initial "attack" is much HIGHER in frequency than you think. The "attack" does not come from your subs, it comes from other drivers in your system. If the crossover is well-integrated, all drivers together create a seamless reproduction ... in frequency, and in time. And you don't need subs upfront, to create the "impact" of the attack upfront.

If you haven't done so already, try this : find a system that's tuned great. Play some great music, with the "impact" you're looking for. Then, turn off ALL drivers in the system EXCEPT the subs. Shut them all OFF, except the subs. Re-play the exact same tracks.

Is the "impact" still present?

Now, i'm not arguing against some stout midbass drivers I'm just saying that, for the most part, the lowest octave (or maybe two) isn't where the real "impact" is.
this is exactly what i was getting at.... up front bass and impact don't necessarily mean that all bass frequencies need to come from the front, but rather the frequencies that create that dynamic or impact need to. how well will a 6" driver do this vs a 8 or a 10" driver. the more cone area reproducing those frequencies, the higher "impact" you'll get from them, thus creating the illusion and impact of up front bass.
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Old 11-14-2010   #7
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncv6coupe View Post

oh forgot to say, you should hear mic10is's bmw if you want up front bass impact!


Except its in rebuild mode right now. adding more fun

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Old 11-14-2010   #8
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
First, it makes sense to define "where", in frequency, the desired "impact" comes from.

Imagine a big-ass kettle drum, for example. Strike that drum ... you want to "feel" that impact. If you examine the response of that drum, in time, you'll find an initial "attack", followed by a longer decay or "tail".

It's important to realize that the initial "attack" is much HIGHER in frequency than you think. The "attack" does not come from your subs, it comes from other drivers in your system. If the crossover is well-integrated, all drivers together create a seamless reproduction ... in frequency, and in time. And you don't need subs upfront, to create the "impact" of the attack upfront.

If you haven't done so already, try this : find a system that's tuned great. Play some great music, with the "impact" you're looking for. Then, turn off ALL drivers in the system EXCEPT the subs. Shut them all OFF, except the subs. Re-play the exact same tracks.

Is the "impact" still present?

Now, i'm not arguing against some stout midbass drivers I'm just saying that, for the most part, the lowest octave (or maybe two) isn't where the real "impact" is.
++++ ad infinitum

The first lycan post I can relate to and understand. I'm just dumb with maths and physics. C'mon bro admit that you went the last mile by your ears. Also that you're back to stock cause you realised that car audio has physical limitations. It's like crossing one hurdle after another. Eats up too much time and at some point you have to let it go to allocate time better.

Impact is what tickles your entire body from head to toe across the 10 octaves. It's not just about the chest thump over 2 octaves. Hearing the root and decay of a 70hz piano note is way different from the sub slamming your chest/kidneys.
Quote:
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Except its in rebuild mode right now. adding more fun
Why are sq installs, tuning settings always wip? That said, I would love to hear your bmw, Mac's Edge (which he hates), Kirks Accura............as long as ya'll don't give me the 'shyt tune'.

Disclaimer : Both posts made TIC (Tongue in cheek). You're both learning pools for me. Just talk in a language that I can understand.

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Old 11-14-2010   #9
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

If you want to remove the feeling of the bass coming form behind you then you have to remove the cues that it coming from behing you. The biggest obstacle is, of course, your seat back. You don't need a sub up front, or even massive midbasses, to get impact in the front. You just need to do it right.

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Old 11-14-2010   #10
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
If you want to remove the feeling of the bass coming form behind you then you have to remove the cues that it coming from behing you. The biggest obstacle is, of course, your seat back. You don't need a sub up front, or even massive midbasses, to get impact in the front. You just need to do it right.
Thats kind of a vague statement. Please explain what you mean by " do it right"

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Old 11-14-2010   #11
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
If you want to remove the feeling of the bass coming form behind you then you have to remove the cues that it coming from behing you. The biggest obstacle is, of course, your seat back. You don't need a sub up front, or even massive midbasses, to get impact in the front. You just need to do it right.
Id wager that you can't get big impact up front without a decent sized midbass unless your subs are playing into the midwoofer ranges, which i don't know of anyone that is doing that. If the impact doesn't come from sub ranges like lycan said, then if you have a mid that simply can't produce those mid frequencies with any authority then you wont get the up front bass impact. You might get the illusion at low volumes but turn it up to have any fun and it'll drag your ears right to the back of the cabin.

The reason i started thinking about this is because i recently had two processors that "auto tune" and they came up with varying concepts or results in the midbass range. One was preached as a tool that would get up front bass with any speakers, and the other simply as a good start. The processor that preached up front bass abilities killed my midbasses. At low volumes, it was right. It sounded up front but at any sort of "fun" volume, the bass was clearly coming from the rear. Contrast that with the othe
r processor and with its reliance on good midbass drivers allowed my system to not only have upfront bass at low volumes but also the impact and illusion at high volumes too
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Old 11-14-2010   #12
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

this thing people keep talking about, "chest-hitting bass" and "frontal impact", are really just the resonant chambers of your upper thoracic cavity responding to sound waves. The reason you focus on those sound waves that you feel in your chest as if they were coming from behind you, is because the seatback isn't fully mass-loaded to the point where it's resonant frequency is sufficiently low to prevent tactile vibration from transferring to your skin. If you have a bass tone that hits, and you feel it only in your chest, then does it matter where the wave propagated from, in a closed pressurization chamber?

That's what everyone wants but because it's rare to see people adding lead to their seat structure and replacing foam batting that responds to sound waves, with foam that is less transmissive, then you will continue to see the beleaguered competitor complain that no matter what he does he can't shake the "bass in rear" localization, as it's difficult to live with a daily driver that has hard appointments to the seating.
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Old 11-14-2010   #13
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
this thing people keep talking about, "chest-hitting bass" and "frontal impact", are really just the resonant chambers of your upper thoracic cavity responding to sound waves. The reason you focus on those sound waves that you feel in your chest as if they were coming from behind you, is because the seatback isn't fully mass-loaded to the point where it's resonant frequency is sufficiently low to prevent tactile vibration from transferring to your skin. If you have a bass tone that hits, and you feel it only in your chest, then does it matter where the wave propagated from, in a closed pressurization chamber?

That's what everyone wants but because it's rare to see people adding lead to their seat structure and replacing foam batting that responds to sound waves, with foam that is less transmissive, then you will continue to see the beleaguered competitor complain that no matter what he does he can't shake the "bass in rear" localization, as it's difficult to live with a daily driver that has hard appointments to the seating.

Total and utter crap. You just proved once again that you don't have the sound.

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Old 11-14-2010   #14
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

something else too about the volume dependent image movement to the rear, is that frequencies that are muffled by the rear seat and deck obstruction, become audible once you reach a decibel level that is sufficiently high enough to be audible from inside the vehicle. One big issue is the effect of crossing over high to get more impact from the big cone in your system, because it's usually out back. That sub that delivers low and loud is being crossed over in a range where if you didn't have the obstruction, would be easily localizable but when setting the frequencies, one usually isn't at maximum db levels.
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Old 11-14-2010   #15
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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Total and utter crap. You just proved once again that you don't have the sound.
prove it.
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Old 11-14-2010   #16
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

I have very large midbass in my doors (MW182's) and I can blend very well with the sub I have in the rear of the car (hatch car). With that said, I have noticed the exact thing cajunner stated and if I mute my sub and drop crossover point on my midbass to play all the way down to 20hz and I still get cues that the bass is coming from the rear at certain frequencies. I noticed my seat back vibrating from my door speakers. Which lead me to think it is not my sub in the back causing cues that the bass is coming from the rear, it is my seat back vibrating.
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Old 11-14-2010   #17
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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I have very large midbass in my doors (MW182's) and I can blend very well with the sub I have in the rear of the car (hatch car). With that said, I have noticed the exact thing cajunner stated and if I mute my sub and drop crossover point on my midbass to play all the way down to 20hz and I still get cues that the bass is coming from the rear at certain frequencies. I noticed my seat back vibrating from my door speakers. Which lead me to think it is not my sub in the back causing cues that the bass is coming from the rear, it is my seat back vibrating.
thanks! I wasn't just saying it, I have had to deal with this problem too.

I think that having the facilities of adding bass to the front speakers in the MS-8, distributes the sound to the ears instead of making it necessary to cross real low in the back.

This fools the mind into believing in the image that otherwise is directly in front of you, even when you have tactile transmission from the seats.

If you run a normal installation that divides frequencies and one that keeps an 80 hz crossover with everything below that coming from in the back, the fundamentals will come from behind you, and the harmonics are what you localize on. If the harmonics are sufficiently loud, you will get sound in a frequency range that makes it clear where the sound is coming from, if it's only coming from in the back. By adding the bass back into the speakers up front, you distribute the sound energy around the cab, causing a diffuse field in the region that upper harmonics normally would give away the sub's location.

You can easily create an experiment by running a sub in the front along with one in the back, but you can't force the test because upper harmonics in the front sub are going to keep localization cues in the front.
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Old 11-14-2010   #18
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

May be a bit subjective for you, but here goes.

1. Phase Coherence : 99% of the folks who use TA are aiming for exact same arrival times for sub/mid/high frequencies. Here's what I'm aiming for. I want the sub frequencies to hit me a fraction before the mids hit me together which would hit me a further fraction of of a second before the highs. Hearing the highs (which have all the height cues) last and from a physically higher height, drags the stage up. Measured distance is only a starting point. From there on I delay everything in equal proportion and then break the proportion right at the end. Its all about hearing here.

2. sub / Mid Blending: Balance across all 10 octaves along with balance across L/R is what you're aiming for. RTA flat does not equal balance. Typically your sub i s playing 50-70hz much louder than 20-40hz. Your mid is just kicking in around 50hz and is into its elements around 100hz. Hence the blend from 50-100hz is critical to getting the right balance. Again you have to hear this to set it. In my set up I have to pinch down at 50hz, balance 80hz with 50 while pulling 80 towards me. Its almost a iven that you cant cross over higher than 60hz and hope to maintain this balance. Oh and another point, if you xover higher than 60hz then you're clue less.

3. Impact : You don't need a lead shield to block the sub wave from the rear. Phase correction and balancing will set it up nicely. Impact is what you feel over 8-10 octaves not just over 2 octaves.

Kapish?......

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Last edited by sqnut; 11-14-2010 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 11-14-2010   #19
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
May be a bit subjective for you, but here goes.

1. Phase Coherence : 99% of the folks who use TA are aiming for exact same arrival times for sub/mid/high frequencies. Here's what I'm aiming for. I want the sub frequencies to hit me a fraction before the mids hit me together which would hit me a further fraction of of a second before the highs. Hearing the highs (which have all the height cues) last and from a physically higher height, drags the stage up. Measured distance is only a starting point. From there on I delay everything in equal proportion and then break the proportion right at the end. Its all about hearing here.

2. sub / Mid Blending: Balance across all 10 octaves along with balance across L/R is what you're aiming for. RTA flat does not equal balance. Typically your sub i s playing 50-70hz much louder than 20-40hz. Your mid is just kicking in around 50hz and is intoits elements around 100hz. Hence the blend from 50-100hz is critical to getting the right balance. Again you have to hear this t set it. In my set up I have to pinch down at 50hz, balance 80hz with 50 while pulling 80 towards me. Its almost a iven that you cant cross over higher than 60hz and hope to maintain this vbalance.

3. Impact : You don't need a lead shield to block the sub wave from the rear. Phase correction and balancing will set it up nicely. Impact is what you feel over 8-10 octaves not just over 2 octaves.

Kapish?......
I disagree.

phase coherence between sub/mid/high frequencies? No, I just time everything to hit at once. No problems with my phase coherence, but what you're doing sounds weird. I'm not saying it can't be good, but it sounds a lot like using BBE correction, which is processing for an intentional shift in phase at the midrange and highs.

sub/mid blending, I see what you're trying to do with it, and it hasn't been so critical in my own installation as to need that kind of explanation. Maybe your vehicle has more issues with nulls/dropouts?

impact, means weighting the seatback with added mass, I didn't say anything about "shield" or shielding with lead. I'm not trying to block the sound wave itself, I'm trying to damp the seat back from vibrating. It's so light normally, that an average car seatback will be easily vibrated by sound, and by increasing mass you reduce energy transfer to your skin by damping.
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Old 11-14-2010   #20
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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I disagree.

phase coherence between sub/mid/high frequencies? No, I just time everything to hit at once.
You don't have the vaguest clue, leave alone the sound.

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Old 11-14-2010   #21
 
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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You don't have the vaguest clue, leave alone the sound.
Im going slightly off topic, here. SQNUT, YOU ARE ABRASIVE. Your message can be conveyed without insulting the intelligence of others. This is a forum to teach and learn, not one to insult and degrade. Please teach, or learn. Nothing more.

Thank You
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Old 11-14-2010   #22
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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Originally Posted by traceywatts View Post
Im going slightly off topic, here. SQNUT, YOU ARE ABRASIVE. Your message can be conveyed without insulting the intelligence of others. This is a forum to teach and learn, not one to insult and degrade. Please teach, or learn. Nothing more.

Thank You
The post wasn't aimed at you, so why do you have your knickers all twisted?

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Old 11-14-2010   #23
 
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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The post wasn't aimed at you, so why do you have your knickers all twisted?
I understand that the post wasn't aimed at me. However, in the few years I've been a member of this site, I've seen more personal debates and insults than useful information. I beg for you guys to return to giving useful information. Senseless insults are not the domain of mature adults. I would like to beleive that we can all be mature and keep insults to a minimum. I don't know, are you having a bad day at work/ home? Or, are you always abrasive? Either way, please don't bring it here. I read for hours, nearly every day, to gain a better understanding of sound manipulation and becoming a DIY'er. It's frustrating to try and filter information from an insulting, pointless argument. I am truly disappointed at what this site has become. Please help to make it better.
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Old 11-14-2010   #24
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

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Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
You don't have the vaguest clue, leave alone the sound.
perhaps you are befuddled?

I can see where you might have produced a brand new tune, but since it's easy to do and nobody I know uses it or has admitted to using it in tutorials on this site (that I am aware of) then is it really me that has lost their clue?

If this is "yours" and it's better, then maybe you should post a tutorial thread so everyone can gain the benefits of sqnut's phase coherence methodologies.
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Default Re: Up Front Bass -- Just an Illusion?

About the TA thing (sub wave arrives first, then mid, then high). Actually from psychoacoustics point it should be the other way around - first highs, because from the speaker, which closer (with TA) you should get the location cues especially when we are talking about hight cues (have tried it and it works).
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