I'm really interested to try these (really looking forward to DAT's prices), especially if the power figures are accurate (they're rated MUCH higher than other full range Class D's of similar size, so I'm a bit skeptical on the power figures). Even if the power figures are a bit lower, still plenty of juice and power for what you're paying.
BUT!, I would REALLY like to know the switching frequency (this seems to be elusive).
HOLY CRAP Thats some seriously affordable power!!!!!
Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...
Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...
Your right! I think the Ref's could have easily been 30-40% higher and still be VERY worth it....but then again, we all know that I absolutely LOVE those amps! I dont think that would change the skeptics mind though...Ignorance is pretty tough to beat? I think they Phantoms will do well on here being that its a real bargain hunter type of sight. If it does rated power without any hiccups then I see these being a real forum boner! It will just take a few people to actually get there hands on them and solitify the product. Its funny with the reviews too...... When a super high end product tests well its the greatest thing ever made. When something new or from a different background tests well, suddenly the tests mean nothing? Same as the pricing I suppose? I personally look forward to the review. The other thing that is funny is that if it tests average to the general market it will be a fail despite it likely being a better bargain then others in the same "testing" range?
I wish you guys luck with it either way. I know I have been extremely pleased with the products you guys have been throwing out the last couple years! Keep it up!
I'm really interested to try these (really looking forward to DAT's prices), especially if the power figures are accurate (they're rated MUCH higher than other full range Class D's of similar size, so I'm a bit skeptical on the power figures). Even if the power figures are a bit lower, still plenty of juice and power for what you're paying.
BUT!, I would REALLY like to know the switching frequency (this seems to be elusive).
OK, all he just told me was that is is in the 50kHz - 7kHz range. I personally have no freaking clue if this is good, awesome, average or pathetic. Your thoughts?
I can't hear that high so I imagine its just fine. I'm fairly certain you meant 50k to 70k
"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it..."Whoever must have written that document must have been as "crazy" as those OPPT guys. /sarcasm --- OPPT-IN folks.
Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...
I think having the price at a realistic mark is much better then having an overinflated one. I mean anyone will see MSRP X and then see web price Y. Regardless of who is looking, the Y price is what we all look at and thus get a feeling of it’s true value. Y won’t change if you do X+30%, but I will tell you, who ever ends up paying X will surely regret it once he sees Y, and he will.
A good product is a good product and some products are really cheep to make regardless of quality, such as amplifiers. When products are so alike (like amplifiers) then pricing becomes one of, if not the main way to market “value” or “quality”. And this is for every company really I don't mean this in a negative way towards epsilon.
I do get it in a way though, if the best amplifier (assuming this existed) only cost 10$ to make, what audiophile would “believe” in it’s SQ anyway if he could buy it at only 100$. I get it, audiophiles seem like they WANT to be taken advantaged of. –please oh please take all of my money because psychoacoustic, the feeling that this should sound better, is what I really crave and make myself believe. Hehehe. If everyone can't own it and it's more exclusive.... then it's better.
OK, all he just told me was that is is in the 50kHz - 7kHz range. I personally have no freaking clue if this is good, awesome, average or pathetic. Your thoughts?
TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.
TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.
Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...
Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...
Ooh, this is very interesting. I'm a HUGE fan of the full range class Ds if implemented correctly. The first Alpine PDXs had noise issues, but latter introductions from other companies have performed flawlessly.
Just as an FYI, but 2 other mfrs use switching frequencies of 400kHz+ to give you an idea of the range used. These 2 mfrs are the highest I know of. All other ones fall around the sub-100kHz range.
Looking forward to a P900.4 or P900.5. Hope the power figures are real as those are some insane figures!
Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...
its more than I knew as well, very educational!
"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it..."Whoever must have written that document must have been as "crazy" as those OPPT guys. /sarcasm --- OPPT-IN folks.
TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.
CORRECTION! I forwarded your email to the amp engineer. he replied with this...
"Oh wait - are the Phantom amps the full range Class D's? I gave you the PSU switching frequency.
The Class D switching frequency would be in the 250 KHz to 350 KHz range."
Apparently I was not clear in my request. I am guessing this is better...
"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it..."Whoever must have written that document must have been as "crazy" as those OPPT guys. /sarcasm --- OPPT-IN folks.
I just got word from a 3rd party engineer. He said the amp did slightly more than rated and the power density was awesome. He added that he really liked the amplifier. He did tell me that he though the input sensitivity is off a bit and needs to be adjusted for low signal radios. But anybody buying one of these will probably have a real radio. May not make the change on the first shipment because they are already built and waiting to ship...
I just got word from a 3rd party engineer. He said the amp did slightly more than rated and the power density was awesome. He added that he really liked the amplifier. He did tell me that he though the input sensitivity is off a bit and needs to be adjusted for low signal radios. But anybody buying one of these will probably have a real radio. May not make the change on the first shipment because they are already built and waiting to ship...
Grizz,
Have you done anything new to the Rubicon?
Meaning, recent updates to the car audio, suspension, etc... since the last time you posted about it?
Are you planning to use any of the new PPI equipment?
Maybe the Ingenix SU?
Actually, if you would post what you're running for equipment now, that would be great.
Last I heared you installed an MS8?
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR
Grizz,
Have you done anything new to the Rubicon?
Meaning, recent updates to the car audio, suspension, etc... since the last time you posted about it?
Are you planning to use any of the new PPI equipment?
Maybe the Ingenix SU?
Actually, if you would post what you're running for equipment now, that would be great.
Last I heared you installed an MS8?
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR
You mean the Rubicon amps? No changes Subs? Discontinued
Use PPI for what? Sorry, I do not understand the question?
Oh you mean about my vehicle? lol Constantly changing. Currently running the RF3.6C components up front, 6.5" neo pro audio in the rear, four RF-8W subs, one STL1.600 sub amp, two STL-4320 fullrange amps, the JBL MS-8 and a VIR-7355NRBT source unit.
MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.
SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...
"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it..."Whoever must have written that document must have been as "crazy" as those OPPT guys. /sarcasm --- OPPT-IN folks.
MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.
SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...
Get a ticket for SEMA and I'll buy ya a brew. My Jeep will be featured in the BDS Suspension booth. $35k value for the Jeep, but currently at $41.510 in sponsored products NOT including labor. I am a poor bastard and build custom ride on the blessings of sponsors. Sometimes it pays to be a show off...
You mean the Rubicon amps? No changes Subs? Discontinued
Use PPI for what? Sorry, I do not understand the question?
Oh you mean about my vehicle? lol Constantly changing. Currently running the RF3.6C components up front, 6.5" neo pro audio in the rear, four RF-8W subs, one STL1.600 sub amp, two STL-4320 fullrange amps, the JBL MS-8 and a VIR-7355NRBT source unit.
Motorless hyperactive fane low frequency transducers
LOL Actually it truly will not be anything crazy, but here is what I am thinking...
If I do Soundstream:
RF3.6C Components
Probably the Stealth Amps again since 2012 models will not be here by then... Or maybe the D-Tower again
RF-8W for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
MS-8
INGENIX Source Unit
SM.654P Rear Fill
If I do PPI:
PC3.65C Components
Phantom Amps for sure
A.8SQ for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
MS-8
INGENIX Source Unit
PM.654 Rear Fill
No matter what, I will be running compact amps, 3-way components and 8" subs. There is nothing that cam make me go any other way... Just too bad the micro products will not be out yet...
MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.
SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...
Grizz,
Sometimes mooching is the only way to get things done.
I remember allowing Ratical Tops in Tempe, AZ. prototype a complete replacement fiberglass top on my 88 S-10, Hot Tops in Tempe prototype some ground effects, and another company in Phoenix, prototype a full sliding rag top on my 85 Toyota PU Snug Top shell.
If you can do without your vehicle for a few months at a time, it's a great alternative to paying for it and you get to be the 1st one with the new stuff.
Also, other companies jump in once the word gets out and offer their equipment because they know your going to be in magazine articles and advertisements.
Which brings me to my next project.
If I drop off my Suburban with you for say, the next four months........
Fourth,
Anything new with the Flex?
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR
EVERYTHING LOUDER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE-Meat Loaf
TEAM GRIZZ
Last edited by PPI-ART COLLECTOR; 08-21-2011 at 07:08 PM..
Re: New PPI amps (Phantom & Black Ice)
Thats some seriously affordable power!!!!!
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