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JBL's MS-8 processor!

2M views 13K replies 999 participants last post by  mzmtg 
#1 ·
MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.

MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.

There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.

There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.

Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.

The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).

After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.

After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.

You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.

Answers to some likely questions:

1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
6. Price will be about $800...TBD
7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.

It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.
 
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#222 ·
Andy (or anyone who knows the answer), I have a couple of quick questions for you.

1) Currently, I plan on installing a set of polk's SR6500 in my car in just a few weeks. However, I have read before that the speaker does not make the system good, rather the tuning. So, with such a good processor/automatic tuner, would such great speakers lose their advantage over middle-of-the-range speakers? If they would lose their advantage, how "good" of a speaker would be required for optimal sound quality?

2) With this new processor, I hear a lot of talk about a center channel. Is there any advantage to a center channel besides giving the other passengers an accurate sound stage?

3) What type of speaker should the center channel be, a full range speaker, a tweeter, or a component set?

4) Assuming the answer to question #1 is better speakers are still advantageous, does the same apply to the center channel? In other words, does the center channel need to be an equivalent speaker to the L and R speakers, or can it be treated like rear fill in the sense that just an decent speaker is required?

Thanks so much. I look forward to owning a MS-8 in the near future! :D
 
#223 ·
1. Average speaker in a great spot will probably do better than a great speaker in a poor spot. After that, poor tuning can cause issues as well (imagine well prepared Filet Mignon.... with ketchup on top... or no seasoning at all). Good ingredients, plus good location plus good preparation.

2 + 3. Depends, the above still applies. Spectrally you probably want to run similar speakers to the ones you already have in the left and right location, if not the same (sometimes compromises are made or changes made because of how the speaker will be located... but if you notice, lots of systems for home theater have 3 fronts or all 5 speakers (in a 5.1 system) the same. That might create a problem in most cars (since people usually go with as big as will fit in the doors/kickpanels/dash for left and right) and finding "extra" space in the dash might be a problem.

Juan
 
#228 ·
#230 ·
Keep in mind Andy competes in sound offs (and probably has a budget to play with stuff that is out there). So he might be trying stuff for the next generation or just so he has something in the car to compete. I'm probably pretty sure he owns the Alpine system that self tunes as well as some of the other integration solutions the MS-8 competes with.

Juan
 
#232 ·
LOL. It's not profiling in my company ;) Besides, they (my company) rib us on this side of border all the time, so we rib them back. It's all fun and games so don't get your flannel in a bunch (I am currently sitting on flannel so I have nothing against it :p).

But hey, you guys get the kick ass Molson Canadian commercials so you win out in the end :D
 
#233 ·
Wow...another super long thread about MS-8.
I think most of the questions about the product have been answered here, thanks to someone pasting responses from the now almost dead carsound forum. Thanks for that.
I agree that there haven't been many room correction algorithms that work well, but the one in MS-8 is a good one. There's a huge difference between room EQ in a room and room EQ in a car. Correcting response in a room with real speakers really requires two different kinds of measurements--a near field measurement of each speaker and a correction scheme for that and a second set of spatially averaged measurements for correcting room modes. In a car, we can combine this into one, since the seating positions are fixed and since the speakers are very close to the listeners (compared to a room). There's so little delay between direct sound and reflections (the time and magnitude) are so close that we hear them all as speakers. In rooms, it's important to differentiate between the two.
Can a person do a better job of tuning than MS-8? I can and I'm sure there are a few others who can too, but MS-8 has been designed to make everyone's car sound better--people like my mom who love music but don't know anything about audio--and for installers to implement. I can do a better job than MS-8 but in order to do it I need lots of bands of parametric EQ (currently I have 176 biquads available for eq and crossover), time alignment, phase shifting parametric all pass filters, separate gain control of all speakers, Logic 7, a mic array and multiplexing mic preamp, an RTA with 1/24 octave resolution, an analyzer than can measure impulse responses and phase, and a couple of weeks.
MS-8 includes all these capabilities and does about 90% of the job in about 10 minutes.
Regarding the debate between Car PC and MS-8: A car PC can include many if these tools all kludged together (except Logic 7). A car PC is like a basket full of groceries and MS-8 is like a great meal.
Why am I building a car PC?
1. Because i'm a glutton for punishment
2. Because the aux adapter I use from USA-SPEC screws with the CAN bus in the car and prevents the steering wheel track up and down button from working properly
3. Because I'm tired of having an iPod controller screen stuck to the top of my dash
4. Because Gary Biggs is building a new car with a MAC Mini as a head unit, asked me for help in figuring out how to configure it and he got me hooked.
5. This is the biggest reason: Our DSP engineers are constantly working on new algorithms to do this and that (top secret) and we need a way to evaluate and car-optimize them as VST plug-ins before they become embedded solutions for home audio.
 
#234 ·
Andy,
If it's been asked before like a thousand times, I apologize now.

Us Honda / Acura owners with the possibly Alpine-sourced head units that feed out to the cute digi-pioneer factory amps are looking for solutions for tapping into the four channels of differential balanced outs from the head unit (TSX and Civic Premium or Nav do this)... Some amps (JL, Rockford, etc) simply accept them with differential balanced inputs, so bypassing the factory amp isn't a problem, but not so sure about which processor will work in between.

How about the MS-8 with line-level diff balanced signals for input?

... and NO I won't ask WHEN... When I see the MS-8 hit the shelves, then I'll know. :)
 
#237 ·
This is excellent excellent news. Also I'm thinking it just might fit where the OEM amp is located in the center console too. Again, I won't ask "when"... I know your engineers are hard at it forever with this thing. I will let the guys over at 8thcivic know though. Mercman's harness makes getting RCA connections out of the stock head unit a snap... straight into the MS-8, then out to sub amp or full assortment of amps.

Good luck and fear not.. There is still a market for the MS-8 waiting patiently.
If only it had a digi-aux input for a USB hard drive running lossless direct to processor (hint hint).... yeeeehaw! :D
 
#239 · (Edited)
Eh, if the analog input sounds good (depending on the source of course.. some decent quality media player with fair dacs and post-dac stage).. like you've told me before, it's probably splitting hairs between direct digital vs analog in. It will by nice finally to one day see the MS-8 hit the streets. :)

Now I have to do a little research into the new kappa's.. something different going on with those tweets, huh? (they get little love it seems but I kinda liked the old ones I had for the price in my last install). C608GTi MKII vs 60.9CS vs Perfect 6.1 ??? hmm sorry different topic for different thread. EDIT: Posed the question in a more appropriate thread HERE
 
#240 ·
Well according to audiojunkies article on the MS-8 this could be ready soon.

Can anyone say "group buy"? Considering there are 24 pages worth in this one thread, I'd say the interest level is fairly high.

I wonder if later down the road, I could find a sucker who will trade the MS-8 for my RF 360.2?
 
#241 ·
That one was Dec '07... Since then I think the MS-8 had to go through a bit of "back to formula" work with the code/firmware/software/other. I wouldn't trust any expected release date except straight from Andy at this point... crossing fingers and hoping for '08 at all. :)
 
#243 ·
Andy, another gain question :). On the Carsounds thread you mentioned that the max 2 volt rms input sensitivity of the MS-8 would be adequate for mostly any deck even though they claim to be 4 volts.

What if we have an actually 4 volt source (say for instance a USB DAC that is intended to drive headphones). Would I need to worry about damaging something or will the worse that will happen is that I'll clip the inputs if I happen to max the vol and have a loud track playing. I've heard from an amp designer on here that some inputs could possibly be damaged depending on their design.

It would good to have those extra 2 volts for headroom to use on low volume tracks and not have to worry about blowing something on the MS-8 if I slip on the volume with a loud track.

If this is not an option, can a stepped attenuator or simple pre-attenuation circuit like this be used to match the output to the input (installed as close as possible to the MS-8).
 
#244 ·
Nothing will be damaged and the clipping may be inaudible anyway--especially if it happens only on transients. If you play Bass MEchanik at 4V, it'll be nasty, but turning down the volume a bit will also work. Another option is to set the max output of the source with its volume control and use MS-8's.
 
#248 ·
any arrival time guess?, a week, month, next year? i bought a new car and im thinking about using the bose head unit instead of my DRZ but only if i could use the ms8 with it, but i need to know aproximately how long til it comes out

ill even volunteer for beta testing:)
 
#253 ·
I agree, it'll be a good product, but by the time it's out you could have had an H701 for 3 years and be done with tuning. why wait for this holy grail of technology when you could have something now, and upgrade later if it's actually worth it.

I don't care when it's coming out, if it's worth it at the time it releases, and it proves to be reliable and a good value, then I might go for it, but I'm not going to sit around wondering when I can enjoy today.

ever hear of the IDone? it'll be amazing too... if it ever gets released
 
#256 ·
I've cleaned out most of my car procs for this thing. Obviously the sooner the better, but it's definitly worth the wait...(as long as it is eventually released...)
 
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