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Old 04-26-2011   #26
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Need to clear up something...
The FR data is smoothed to 1/24. I stated this as a testing parameter, which is linked in the OP.

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Old 04-26-2011   #27
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

My bad, there was a coarse smoothing done. My mistake from previous post. Thanks Winslow.

I would actually like to discuss the uncorrelated peak at 8,000 Hz. More to come...
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Old 04-27-2011   #28
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by Velozity View Post
This is Erin's thread so I'll let him moderate as he sees fit. But to my eyes (and I know some may say I'm biased, but I know how to be objective especially in this case because I have nothing to gain or lose with these driver tests) it looks like Mic just interpreted what he saw on the graph. He didn't specifically attack or downplay the product. It's true that peaks from 6-8khz will cause sibilance. He didn't say it was a bad driver nor say that the AR3K was better. In fact there was more negativity thrown at him for pointing out what he saw on the graph and then talking about other company owners and team members as if they had no integrity and saying they have ulterior motives. I think that there are short fuses here but in the end, there's nothing wrong with questioning and discussing an FR graph in a thread like this. A thread full of "that's awesome, I love it" comments doesn't really do the community justice. Let's discuss the data and how that translates to the real world. I think that's what Mic was doing. Now his last comment about nuthugging was just Mic being Mic, and that doesn't make it right but he still didn't bash the product.
I'm with this guy. Mic's points are fair game. Besides, I'm not a big fan of chopping up threads and closing and regulating. It reminds me of lesser forums from which a lot of us left. If anything Mic is simply pointing at the fact that both drivers have irregularities in the frequency response, he is being OBJECTIVE. Erin on the other hand came out on the AR3k thread to say this kink here will likely sound so and so which has a great chance of being purely SUBJECTIVE. If anyone should be kicked out for subjective statements it's not Mic, it's Erin.

The frequency response has different issues than the AR3k. Maybe because of the reverse roll surround there is a big suck out instead of a peak. Both are undersirable from the objective mission of lowering distortion. To me they are equally bad because of this. There are 3" on the market that are smoother in this respect. I would think the normal style surround coupled with some material loading at the surround and cone joint will smooth out the frequency response. I've seen this done in TB, and Scan drivers that I've owned.

More importantly though the HAT has a lot lower harmonic distortion of all types compared to the other two drivers, especially the heavier cone version. The HAT also has a workable QTS. These two points are overwhelmingly more important than the frequency response where I say it's a tie.

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Old 04-27-2011   #29
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

^ Thank you.
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Old 04-27-2011   #30
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

These results are really nice for minimal smoothed data. More smoothing like 1/3rd octave would get things looking more like what we are accustom to seeing. And if Erin applied Tang Band smoothing, the FR would look like a straight line.

Couple of things to note IMO:

Almost any and all wide band drivers are going to have lumps and bumps in their FR graphs. That is the nature of the beast when designing such speakers. Scott has done a good job pushing the resonances up to areas where our ears aren't that sensitive to large peaks. There are very few high Q peaks in the FR indicating few stored energy areas.

There is a little bump in the impedance curve that is likely a spider resonance. The impedance curve is pretty flat indicating good use of copper in the motor. If using fullrange you could use a zobel to flatten out the curve...though I can't speculate as to how that would improve the sound. The inverted surround looks to be doing a good job of suppressing resonances and keeping the HF bandwidth usable.

The distortion profile looks good. Notice the peak at 6-8k isn't correlated in the odd order distortion profile. There is a peak in the 2nd order, but shouldn't make for any unpleasantness. That to me tells me you could cross the speaker over pretty much as high as you would want to a tweeter. A little EQ work and you could run it all the way up with decreasing dispersion on the top end. I would expect this driver to have some of that paper warmth but still detailed in the midrange. A passive XO to a tweeter shouldn't be hard to do.

Again, I haven't heard these speakers and this is based on looking at the data. Not taking sides, just haven't had a chance to look at the other tests.
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Old 04-27-2011   #31
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Opps, didn't mean to over step Erin...this was sitting on my computer last night before things were deleted.
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Old 04-27-2011   #32
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

^No - great post - it helps a guy like me understand a bit of what the graph is showing - thanks JW!


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Old 04-27-2011   #33
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

I have spent a lot of time trying to figure this stuff out...lol. Still a lot to learn, but hopefully I can help someone make sense of the data to some degree.
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Old 04-27-2011   #34
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Hi Guys!

FYI, just placed my order with Larry Woolacott for a set of L3se's...look Ma no tweeters!
Hopefully this will pair nicely with L6se's...

Thanks Scott! And Larry and Jason (sound solutions) these guys bar none the best in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
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Old 04-27-2011   #35
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Thank you Jason for the technical post!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
These results are really nice for minimal smoothed data. More smoothing like 1/3rd octave would get things looking more like what we are accustom to seeing. And if Erin applied Tang Band smoothing, the FR would look like a straight line.
Yes, you got that spot-on. I smoothed to 1/3 octave on the specification sheet/download, here (please flip to the last page): http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Legatia%20L3SE.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Almost any and all wide band drivers are going to have lumps and bumps in their FR graphs. That is the nature of the beast when designing such speakers. Scott has done a good job pushing the resonances up to areas where our ears aren't that sensitive to large peaks. There are very few high Q peaks in the FR indicating few stored energy areas.
The only real notable high Q peak is at 16,000 Hz-ish, which is cone edge-mode response. But for many, that is the limit of audibility. Beyond that, it's just a pretty LMS graph above 14,000 Hz for many of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
There is a little bump in the impedance curve that is likely a spider resonance.
Yes, an unterminated spider mode more than likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
The impedance curve is pretty flat indicating good use of copper in the motor.
Page two of the downlaod at http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Legatia%20L3SE.pdf details the CuAL inductance ring incorproation. Thanks for noticing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
If using fullrange you could use a zobel to flatten out the curve...though I can't speculate as to how that would improve the sound.
It likely wouldn't, and further risk introduction of IMD and parasitic loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
The inverted surround looks to be doing a good job of suppressing resonances and keeping the HF bandwidth usable.
So glad you noted that because I didn't agree at all with a previous post indicating the reverse roll surround has a "suck-out."

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
The distortion profile looks good. Notice the peak at 6-8k isn't correlated in the odd order distortion profile. There is a peak in the 2nd order, but shouldn't make for any unpleasantness. That to me tells me you could cross the speaker over pretty much as high as you would want to a tweeter. A little EQ work and you could run it all the way up with decreasing dispersion on the top end. I would expect this driver to have some of that paper warmth but still detailed in the midrange.
Yes, I am staring at the sinusoidal phenomenon at 8,000 Hz, and it is clearly not correlated to any non-linear distortion. I am showing a much milder rise and fall on my LMS. I am wondering - just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if its sticks - is there a nodal phenomenon going on here with respect to the geometry of the phase plug as it is interacting with the location and omni-directivity of the microphone? It screams phase to me, or some node response. It screams half-wave! You definitely don't HEAR this on the board, or in a car, with human ears. I just keep going back to some sort of a node at 5 KHz and 11 KHz, and an antinode at 8 KHz, which would be basically one full octave...a complete half-wave node/antinode phenomenon. Or is it a simple anti-node at 8,000 Hz and at 5,000 Hz and 11,000 Hz its normal response? It's clearly not break-up mode; that happens much later. I just can't get over how text-book the curve looks from the standpoint of some form of standing wave at 8,000 Hz as being picked up by the microphone...like I said, you simply can't HEAR 9 dB at 8,000 Hz, so I wonder...

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Old 04-27-2011   #36
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

I mentioned the zobel to try to head off that question before it was asked. I agree with you, I wouldn't personally do it if I had the speakers...but some people like messing around with stuff.

Too many people think you NEED perfectly flat FR, but as you know there are areas in which the ear simply can't hear ripples and fluctuations.

Anyways, that is my 2 cents from just looking at some pictures. Maybe someone who has actually heard these drivers could correlate what I said to what they hear...I might be right and I might not be.
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Old 04-27-2011   #37
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Too many people think you NEED perfectly flat FR, but as you know there are areas in which the ear simply can't hear ripples and fluctuations.
To me, it's not so much as the need or non-need, but the fact that even the most well-received drivers aren't "flat" or necessarily anywhere thereabouts. I'm halfway tempted to rip my pillars apart and measure the scan 12m's just so people can understand the difference between a manufacturer's 10dB scale and my 3dB scale becuase it seems a lot of folks may be glazing the difference over and worrying about something that isn't as extreme in terms of speaker design as one may think.



As far as the data on this sole driver, I was (insert choice word here) to see the distortion levels all stay within the same bounds, relatively. I am not saying it's good or bad by any means. I am just noting that it's something I don't recall seeing before with HD plots such as what Zaph provides. The overall levels are down pretty significantly, IMO, but I still wonder what the fact that each order is stacked closely within the other tells us about the driver sound.

You'll notice, even outside of other testing I've done, that most drivers seem to exhibit a pretty large delta between F1 and F2, then a small delta between F2 and F3, while F4 & F5 are somewhat intertwined. I'm not seeing that here and it's the first thing that made me same "hmph". I tested the driver 3 times because I thought the data was incorrect. I even tested it 8 hours apart (once before work, once after) and had nearly identical results each time (as identical as HD can be).

Scott - or even Jason - do either of you guys know what this can tell us about how the driver may sound? I still have yet to listen to them myself.

Like I said, it's just not something I recall seeing and am curious what benefit/affect it may have on the sound.

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Old 04-27-2011   #38
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
These results are really nice for minimal smoothed data. More smoothing like 1/3rd octave would get things looking more like what we are accustom to seeing. And if Erin applied Tang Band smoothing, the FR would look like a straight line.

Couple of things to note IMO:

Almost any and all wide band drivers are going to have lumps and bumps in their FR graphs. That is the nature of the beast when designing such speakers. Scott has done a good job pushing the resonances up to areas where our ears aren't that sensitive to large peaks. There are very few high Q peaks in the FR indicating few stored energy areas.

There is a little bump in the impedance curve that is likely a spider resonance. The impedance curve is pretty flat indicating good use of copper in the motor. If using fullrange you could use a zobel to flatten out the curve...though I can't speculate as to how that would improve the sound. The inverted surround looks to be doing a good job of suppressing resonances and keeping the HF bandwidth usable.

The distortion profile looks good. Notice the peak at 6-8k isn't correlated in the odd order distortion profile. There is a peak in the 2nd order, but shouldn't make for any unpleasantness. That to me tells me you could cross the speaker over pretty much as high as you would want to a tweeter. A little EQ work and you could run it all the way up with decreasing dispersion on the top end. I would expect this driver to have some of that paper warmth but still detailed in the midrange. A passive XO to a tweeter shouldn't be hard to do.

Again, I haven't heard these speakers and this is based on looking at the data. Not taking sides, just haven't had a chance to look at the other tests.
Clap, clap! And then I'm going to add my .02cents.

I'm impressed. This driver did VERY well, considering the challenges that abound with full range drivers. This driver could easily be run full range due to the distortion profile if not the ragged frequency response beyond 2.5k.

Now, I'm not nearly as concerned with the frequency response around 8k as I am with the dip around 2.5k. That still falls in the sensitive hearing range, but a quick low Q EQ boost around 3-3.5k would help a lot. Do that, and you pretty much cross anywhere you like and probably run full range.

Now the driver does have horrible efficiency, but in relation to other drivers this size, it's about average. The fact that it does 92db with no effort is laudable. Like somebody else said, I would like to see 96db. That would give us an idea of where this driver really should be crossed on the low end. I'm expecting, due the lack of efficiency, that Xmax is relatively high for a driver this size. So, where you cross it on the low end is just a matter of how much distortion you're willing to live with. Nothing wrong with the driver here, we're seeing pure physics at play.

That all being said, where do I see this driver REALLY shining.

1. Off-axis install, with a notch at 8k crossing to a tweeter around 3k, ala something like the Seas Neo, or something like that. This driver has a beautiful natural roll off beyond 2.5k at 60* off axis and wouldn't require a crossover on the top end.

2. In an actual loudspeaker as a dedicated midrange. Now the sensitivity of the driver is a concern for an application like this so, it would need to be doubled up at least, if not quadrupled in a MTM or even better an MMTMM alignment. The latter would be challenging, but crossed from 300hz to 2500hz, you'd have excellent midrange, and you'd combat the low sensitivity.

Overall, an impressive example of a 3" full range driver.

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Old 04-27-2011   #39
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

I was looking at that roll off off axis and thinking...man that thing is nice, little notch for that peak, and that thing would be cake to mate with just about anything you could throw at it tweeter-wise.

That drop in the FR Gary mentioned, I have been pondering that myself. But without a larger sample size, I would hate to speculate on if it is really there or if you could really hear it. Erin's excellent measurements (pretty much showing worts and all) probably show more than we are used to seeing, and as a result people are going to interpt the data in the wrong way.

I haven't heard this driver (that I know of...lol, unless Scott has snuck some in some cars that I've judged), but it's performance is really really good.
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Old 04-27-2011   #40
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
That drop in the FR Gary mentioned, I have been pondering that myself. But without a larger sample size, I would hate to speculate on if it is really there or if you could really hear it. Erin's excellent measurements (pretty much showing worts and all) probably show more than we are used to seeing, and as a result people are going to interpt the data in the wrong way.
That drop in response at 2.5k is a swing of around 6db. Not much argument as to being audible.

How this presents itself will be largely dependent on how the driver is utilized. If we throw out the rhetoric of "you never know how a driver will sound once in a car" we can analyze it a bit better with the understanding, that 6db is 6db. You may not know how it will sound in a car, which is true, but going into the car hoping that you magically have 6 db of boost from exactly 2.5k to 8k from whatever artifacts your car produces is silly.

So, I'm pretty much of the opinion that this driver needs to be EQ'd above 2.5k. I could be wrong. But if we look at it from a purist standpoint, and I think that's fair given the price point of the driver, we would have to agree that a 6db drop is better utilized in other ways that trying to smooth it out.

This driver is highly usable, has the typical disadvantages of a driver this type, but excels in certain areas. This driver falls within Scott's typical theme when designing a midrange type driver. With this particular driver, and this is PURELY preference on my part, I would like to see greater sensitivity. That would require less Xmax, and therefore not as much low end. But given the dramatic rise in distortion below 375hz, I think it would be a worthy tradeoff to give up some high distortion low end throw, for more sensitivity, and phenomenal midrange distortion characteristics. This would break the trend of full ranges being called midranges, and the fact that nobody seems to make a dedicated midrange anymore (which is a pure shame).

Honestly, from 375hz to about 2.5khz, this driver is class leading based on these results. While capable of extending out beyond those numbers, it loses a lot of what would make this driver great.

Again, this is from a purist/perfectionist standpoint (of which I'm neither, but the devil needs advocates too). Like I said though, at this price point, it's completely fair to judge it with every other driver of similar design, and concept.

If I were building a home tower, and price were no object, this driver would get some due consideration being utilized in an MMTMM crossed from 375hz - 2.5kzh.

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Old 04-27-2011   #41
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Gary, let me ask you this about that drop...given the width of the pillars and where these speakers normally end up, could you take the rise from 2.5k and down as some sort of built in baffle step conpensation? I am asking because I am up in the air about BSC in the car.
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Old 04-27-2011   #42
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Gary, let me ask you this about that drop...given the width of the pillars and where these speakers normally end up, could you take the rise from 2.5k and down as some sort of built in baffle step conpensation? I am asking because I am up in the air about BSC in the car.
Baffle step is really hard to predict in a car, and I don't even plan for it. The most you'll usually see are artifacts due to the "baffle" not being flat. You can measure the area you're working with and come up with a rough idea of where the artifacts will occur.

For example, if your a-pillar sits 2 inches above your door window, you can expect an artifact in the 7khz range. As the a-pillar rolls around to meet with the windshield you can expect artifacts from that as well.

So, regardless of what you do, the artifacts will exist. No way around it in a car, but not likely to be as predominant in the 2-2.5k ranges as it would in the upper octaves. That's why a ragged frequency response up high would only be combated purely by luck when trying to run a fullrange driver fullrange. A smoother response tweeter is much better for that application (again from a purist standpoint). A 2-3db shift in response from a tweeter that has ruler flat frequency response at 7 khz is not nearly as noticeable as a 2-3db shift in response from a fullrange that already has a 3db shift, or rather fluctuations in that area.

Now, in the real world there's really no way to tell how it will really sort itself out, but from the planning stage, it seems going with smoother frequency response from the beginning is the best bet for achieving a flatter response in the end application.

Now, as for this particular driver in an a-pillar install, I say, emphatically, YES!! I would seat the driver into the a-pillar at 60* off-axis. That would put the drivers flat into the pillars and not be nearly as obtrusive as your typical on-axis pillar install. Of course, contingent on using a tweeter and crossing at that magical 2.5khz.

If somebody wants to make a good argument of crossover point at 2.5khz and the inherent issues with vs accepting a more ragged response from 2.5khz and above (and placing the driver on-axis) I'll listen. It's a valid argument, and only answered based on preference.

I'll take the crossover.

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Old 04-27-2011   #43
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Right on.

BTW, I think we are looking for the same midrange...lol.
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Old 04-27-2011   #44
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
If somebody wants to make a good argument of crossover point at 2.5khz and the inherent issues with vs accepting a more ragged response from 2.5khz and above (and placing the driver on-axis) I'll listen. It's a valid argument, and only answered based on preference.
I am about argued out (reference previous two days on this thread), so there's not much willpower in my brain or my two fingers to type out a good wide-bandwidth explanation and argument, but there is one, and I definetely have one. That being said, I am elated to see good discussion going on here. Would I cross this driver over at 2,500 Hz? No. But boy do I appreciate your views on the subject. Truly thankful for good, technical discussion.

Maybe later/tomorrow/Friday aftyer a good night's sleep, some marital activities, and a good dinner, not necessarily in that order.

Scott
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Old 04-29-2011   #45
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Now that I have power again and all the tornadoes have passed, I'll try again...

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Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
To me, it's not so much as the need or non-need, but the fact that even the most well-received drivers aren't "flat" or necessarily anywhere thereabouts. I'm halfway tempted to rip my pillars apart and measure the scan 12m's just so people can understand the difference between a manufacturer's 10dB scale and my 3dB scale becuase it seems a lot of folks may be glazing the difference over and worrying about something that isn't as extreme in terms of speaker design as one may think.



As far as the data on this sole driver, I was (insert choice word here) to see the distortion levels all stay within the same bounds, relatively. I am not saying it's good or bad by any means. I am just noting that it's something I don't recall seeing before with HD plots such as what Zaph provides. The overall levels are down pretty significantly, IMO, but I still wonder what the fact that each order is stacked closely within the other tells us about the driver sound.

You'll notice, even outside of other testing I've done, that most drivers seem to exhibit a pretty large delta between F1 and F2, then a small delta between F2 and F3, while F4 & F5 are somewhat intertwined. I'm not seeing that here and it's the first thing that made me same "hmph". I tested the driver 3 times because I thought the data was incorrect. I even tested it 8 hours apart (once before work, once after) and had nearly identical results each time (as identical as HD can be).

Scott - or even Jason - do either of you guys know what this can tell us about how the driver may sound? I still have yet to listen to them myself.

Like I said, it's just not something I recall seeing and am curious what benefit/affect it may have on the sound.

- Erin

This may simply be what great distortion measurements looks like.
I just don't recall seeing all order distortions so closely grouped in any other testing such as Zaph's.

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Old 04-29-2011   #46
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
Scott - or even Jason - do either of you guys know what this can tell us about how the driver may sound? I still have yet to listen to them myself.
The close grouping of low distortion data is indicative of a very well-mannered driver. When viewed as a whole unit, a speaker that exhibits this type of HD data is extremely well damped across the usable bandwidth of the driver, edge modes are being tamed well, spider modes are small or non-existent, BL centering is exceptional, and of course the speaker is being tested within its mechanical limits. How will it sound? It will predominantly sound “uncolored” and perhaps even “neutral.”

A comment about the 92 dB testing. I think people might get slightly confused by precisely how loud 92 dB is from one driver. A driver that has a diaphragm that is well less than three inches in diameter, tested FULL range, no bandwidth limitation. In the company-owned G35, the L3SE’s are playing from 160 Hz with no lowpass, at about 30 degrees off axis, and at volume 52 out of 60 on the DEX-P99RS and a bridged pair of channels from a SE4200, a single L3SE is playing at not much more than 92 dB. Combined with near-field “liveliness” being close to glass and hard accoutrements, step response, and undoubtedly a potential for at least some modal response, a single mid playing at 92-93 dB is REALLY loud. They EASILY keep up with a pair of 18” subs firing into a common chamber, with a bridged SE2300 on each sub (~1,200 watts each). So I’d caution the reader to fully understand precisely how loud a bandwidth limited (aka, a driver with highpass crossover) is at 92 dB, no less a driver tested full-range at 92 dB.
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Old 04-29-2011   #47
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Edit:
Regarding HD test levels, I agree Scott. But, I don't really feel like rehashing this over and over again. I've had waaaay too much personal stuff happen the last few days (see: tornadoes killing hundreds in my area) to argument semantics any longer.
I ask anyone who wants my input on this to see the test input discussion stickied somewhere in this sub forum.

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Last edited by ErinH; 04-29-2011 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 04-29-2011   #48
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Erin's excellent measurements (pretty much showing worts and all) probably show more than we are used to seeing, and as a result people are going to interpt the data in the wrong
Im glad the purpose of me measuring and posting results in the detail I have (3dB scale, 1/24 smoothing) is appreciated. My goal was to show pretty much everything that most mfgs don't show... Or make it easier to see than their plots do.

I'll take it as a compliment.

Oh, as far as my excellent measurements... 31/32. Yeah, baby!


OT, Gary did you decide to hang on to the praxis setup?

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Old 04-29-2011   #49
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Buwalda View Post
The close grouping of low distortion data is indicative of a very well-mannered driver. When viewed as a whole unit, a speaker that exhibits this type of HD data is extremely well damped across the usable bandwidth of the driver, edge modes are being tamed well, spider modes are small or non-existent, BL centering is exceptional, and of course the speaker is being tested within its mechanical limits. How will it sound? It will predominantly sound “uncolored” and perhaps even “neutral.”
Which is why I advocate NOT running this driver full range. Use what's great about this driver and leave where it starts to degrade to a driver more capable of that extended bandwidth (i.e. tweeters and midbasses).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Buwalda View Post
A comment about the 92 dB testing. I think people might get slightly confused by precisely how loud 92 dB is from one driver. A driver that has a diaphragm that is well less than three inches in diameter, tested FULL range, no bandwidth limitation. In the company-owned G35, the L3SE’s are playing from 160 Hz with no lowpass, at about 30 degrees off axis, and at volume 52 out of 60 on the DEX-P99RS and a bridged pair of channels from a SE4200, a single L3SE is playing at not much more than 92 dB. Combined with near-field “liveliness” being close to glass and hard accoutrements, step response, and undoubtedly a potential for at least some modal response, a single mid playing at 92-93 dB is REALLY loud. They EASILY keep up with a pair of 18” subs firing into a common chamber, with a bridged SE2300 on each sub (~1,200 watts each). So I’d caution the reader to fully understand precisely how loud a bandwidth limited (aka, a driver with highpass crossover) is at 92 dB, no less a driver tested full-range at 92 dB.
Agree with all you said here. Except, not sure if the "amp" setup is necessary. Requiring a ton of power to get to 92 db shows a serious lack of efficiency. Not avoidable though in a driver like this. In fact typical.

Now 92 db in a car is one thing where we're in the nearfield, and where artifacts will present themselves, but remember you're competing with diy home audio drivers as well. So, I look at it as, put it on a front baffle for a home tower and you lose another 4-5 db. Not necessarily the application that these were designed for, but I refuse to make the distinction between home audio and car audio driver. A speaker is a speaker.

So, if combating baffle step, it's perfectly reasonable to test at 96 db to show how the driver will behave on a limited width baffle at 91-92db.

This is a weakness of ALL small fullrange drivers. ALL OF THEM!!! I'm a huge proponent of fullrange drivers in car usage but for the reason that you gain a few extra db over using them in a home audio tower. But, buyer beware. The lack of efficiency is a HUGE drawback, and why I'm sticking to my stance that these are amazing if run limited bandwidth, and that if Scott has been able to get that kind of distortion profile from 300-2500hz, then he could make an industry coup by limiting the overall bandwidth of the driver and design a pure midrange.

Scott's afraid of crossovers though.

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Old 04-29-2011   #50
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

^ LOL The devil designed the first crossover and its been downhill ever since.
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