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Old 04-29-2011   #51
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
Edit:
Regarding HD test levels, I agree Scott. But, I don't really feel like rehashing this over and over again. I've had waaaay too much personal stuff happen the last few days (see: tornadoes killing hundreds in my area) to argument semantics any longer.
I ask anyone who wants my input on this to see the test input discussion stickied somewhere in this sub forum.
Whoa bro, did I miss something? Nothing I wrote was a personal attack. <confused> Or have there been some thread edits I didn't see?
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Old 04-29-2011   #52
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
Requiring a ton of power to get to 92 db shows a serious lack of efficiency.
Well, I guess I should temper that comment with the fact that the 4200's gain are "off." As in, not even cracked a pube hair.

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Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
If Scott has been able to get that kind of distortion profile from 300-2500hz, then he could make an industry coup by limiting the overall bandwidth of the driver and design a pure midrange.
I can do it. The formula is actually not that different than the existing L3SE formula. And in fact, the L4SE might just be what you're looking for WRT power compression, distortion, and sensitivity.

Scott
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Old 04-29-2011   #53
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Whoa bro, did I miss something? Nothing I wrote was a personal attack. <confused> Or have there been some thread edits I didn't see?
Not at all.

I just posted something about the testing and realized that I was breaking my own rule about keeping the testing out of the thread. I've kept your comment here because it still pertained to the driver itself.

I've just been trying to keep it a point to keep things solely about my testing methods in a separate thread so things don't go OT.

Trying to moderate fairly and need to stay within my own rules.

It's all good.

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Old 04-29-2011   #54
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Word. Or if you're old-school, Werd.
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Old 04-29-2011   #55
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

or if you're a hacker, w3rd.


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Old 04-29-2011   #56
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Originally Posted by Scott Buwalda View Post
And in fact, the L4SE might just be what you're looking for WRT power compression, distortion, and sensitivity.

Scott
what I see is "I'm going to send Erin a set of L4se's to test.

Maybe we see things differently, though.

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Old 04-30-2011   #57
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Good possibility.
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Old 05-04-2011   #58
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

* Thanks Erin for taking the time to test all those drivers - I now know why many wants to see distorsion plots, waterfall diagram and specs
* Thanks to all posters in the thread - made my life easier and now I can interprete and understand data better
* Thanks to Scott for letting Erin test the driver - I know it can be difficult to explain what is seen and how it translate to what is heard. It can be really difficult to deal with DIYers always looking for perfection (or the other way around : imperfections).

Nice driver BTW, now send Erin some L4SE and bring the L4Pro out already

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 05-04-2011   #59
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Honestly, with the L4SE, there's virtually no need for an L4 Pro.
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Old 05-04-2011   #60
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Since Kelvin mentioned waterfall plots...you can usually tell how a waterfall plot will look by looking at the FR of the driver. All of the bumps will show as stored energy ridges on a waterfall plot. High Q sharp peaks will show as little mountains of stored energy ridges. Waterfall plots show linear distortion. The flatter the FR, the better the watterfall plot, and the better the linear distortion will be. A waterfall will show more stored energy than a FR graph, but you can start to get ideas as to what a waterfall wil look like by looking at the FR graph of a speaker.

This might be trival to some, but it took me a long time of looking at CSD (waterfall plots) before making the connections. However CSD plots aren't very useful for looking at the lowend stored energy of a speaker. A Wigner-Ville plot would show that data better. But all of these are derived from the FR data of a speaker.

Please think of my "stored energy" as resonances...which is more correct.

Oh and be very leary of looking at published FR data that does not have any labeled smoothing or resolution...the more smoothing or lower the resolution the smoother the FR looks. Tang Band is notorious for having FR data that is too smooth to be believed.

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Old 05-04-2011   #61
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
* Thanks Erin for taking the time to test all those drivers - I now know why many wants to see distorsion plots, waterfall diagram and specs
Glad to.
A small note regarding waterfall: I don't do them. The reason is because the software setup allows a lot of room for personal interpretation and I just don't want to go down that road. Thus, no waterfall from me. Plus, like Jason said, most of what you need to know can be seen in the FR (and also the impedance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
* Thanks to Scott for letting Erin test the driver - I know it can be difficult to explain what is seen and how it translate to what is heard. It can be really difficult to deal with DIYers always looking for perfection (or the other way around : imperfections).
Just for the record, the L3SE's in this test came from a friend. Scott didn't send these to me. Though, I would like to get my hands on the L4SE now just to see how the distortion compares to this driver and see if they have the same type results (ie: are the orders all pretty well grouped together).

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Old 05-04-2011   #62
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Since Kelvin mentioned waterfall plots...you can usually tell how a waterfall plot will look by looking at the FR of the driver. All of the bumps will show as stored energy ridges on a waterfall plot. High Q sharp peaks will show as little mountains of stored energy ridges. Waterfall plots show linear distortion. The flatter the FR, the better the watterfall plot, and the better the linear distortion will be. A waterfall will show more stored energy than a FR graph, but you can start to get ideas as to what a waterfall wil look like by looking at the FR graph of a speaker.

This might be trival to some, but it took me a long time of looking at CSD (waterfall plots) before making the connections. However CSD plots aren't very useful for looking at the lowend stored energy of a speaker. A Wigner-Ville plot would show that data better. But all of these are derived from the FR data of a speaker.

Please think of my "stored energy" as resonances...which is more correct.

Oh and be very leary of looking at published FR data that does not have any labeled smoothing or resolution...the more smoothing or lower the resolution the smoother the FR looks. Tang Band is notorious for having FR data that is too smooth to be believed.
If I understand correctly, by looking at the impedance curve, there is stored energy around 2.5kHz and again @ 8kHz & 15kHz by looking at the freq response... Correct? And well of course near FS, but that would be resonance

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 05-04-2011   #63
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
Glad to.
A small note regarding waterfall: I don't do them. The reason is because the software setup allows a lot of room for personal interpretation and I just don't want to go down that road. Thus, no waterfall from me. Plus, like Jason said, most of what you need to know can be seen in the FR (and also the impedance).

Trying to learn from Jason's post... I feel like I won't need to see waterfall anytime soon

Just for the record, the L3SE's in this test came from a friend. Scott didn't send these to me. Though, I would like to get my hands on the L4SE now just to see how the distortion compares to this driver and see if they have the same type results (ie: are the orders all pretty well grouped together).
Ohh ok... My bad Well I'm still thanking Scott for letting you post those graphs
Many thanks to your unknown friend for sending you the driver
Kelvin

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 05-04-2011   #64
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Yeah some people love waterfalls, others don't really feel they show much usefull information. Like Erin said, pretty much everything you can see in the waterfall can be seen elsewhere. A flat FR shows no real energy storage in the cone. A flat impedance curve will show no real energy storage in the mechanics of the speaker- spider and surround. Bumps in the FR curve will show as resonances in the cones and bumps in the impedance curves will be resonances in the spider and surround. A flat impedance curve will also show the speaker acting resistivily, and a rising impedance curve will show reactance. Ribbons will generally have pretty flat FR curves and that's why their waterfall plots are pretty "fast" meaning no stored energy in the diaphram.

Looking at the combined data the linear distortion coming from FR related measurements and the nonlinear data should paint a good picture of what you can expect a driver to sound like...there isn't much else left to describe anything else.

Again it's taken me a long time to start putting all of this together...to some people they might be sitting back and saying "duh!" to all of this lol. And when you use speakers within their piston ranges things get a lot more easy to understand.
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Old 05-04-2011   #65
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Maybe we can sweet talk Erin into doing 3 or 5 tone burst distortion tests That's even more complex, but shows what the speaker would do on something more resembling music.

But I agree with Jeff...we need to really know and understand these things before we get into the deep end of the pool with the advanced testing equipment like the Klippel.
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Old 05-04-2011   #66
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Can you tell me if my numbers are correct (or close)?

Thanks Jason,
Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 05-04-2011   #67
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Yeah some people love waterfalls, others don't really feel they show much usefull information. Like Erin said, pretty much everything you can see in the waterfall can be seen elsewhere. A flat FR shows no real energy storage in the cone. A flat impedance curve will show no real energy storage in the mechanics of the speaker- spider and surround. Bumps in the FR curve will show as resonances in the cones and bumps in the impedance curves will be resonances in the spider and surround. A flat impedance curve will also show the speaker acting resistivily, and a rising impedance curve will show reactance. Ribbons will generally have pretty flat FR curves and that's why their waterfall plots are pretty "fast" meaning no stored energy in the diaphram.

Looking at the combined data the linear distortion coming from FR related measurements and the nonlinear data should paint a good picture of what you can expect a driver to sound like...there isn't much else left to describe anything else.

Again it's taken me a long time to start putting all of this together...to some people they might be sitting back and saying "duh!" to all of this lol. And when you use speakers within their piston ranges things get a lot more easy to understand.
From what I gather the impulse response gives the full information for linear distortion. From that you can get FR or CSD. They are supposed to say the paint the same picture. How do things work with speakers that have no spider or surround? Does the same explanation hold?

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Old 05-04-2011   #68
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

That's a good question...I wish I had a good answer for you other than, "I don't know." Every speaker has some form of suspension so I guess it would hold true, especially acting as a piston...I guess. Hell, I really don't know...I haven't gotten to that page yet...lol.

Kelvin, I think...I would have to go back to the first page and see.
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Old 05-04-2011   #69
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Maybe we can sweet talk Erin into doing 3 or 5 tone burst distortion tests That's even more complex, but shows what the speaker would do on something more resembling music.

But I agree with Jeff...we need to really know and understand these things before we get into the deep end of the pool with the advanced testing equipment like the Klippel.
I can do this with soundeasy. it just requires extra time and I'm pretty limited as is. I initially wanted to do IMD testing like Nyugen did with praxis but I realized that posting 4-5 plots for each tested frequency was going to get real old, real fast.

I'll try to do a 3 tone IMD test in the future, though. Frankly, I didn't know if anyone would get anything from it so didn't bother.
I'd just have to choose what frequencies I want to use for different sized drivers and stick to that. I'll see what I can do in the future, though.

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Old 07-07-2012   #70
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

Can someone please point me in the direction of the actual response and THD plot graphics?
Hopefully they are available- it would be the only thing useful in a 3-page pissing match that I just waded through. Lots of conjecture and theory (albeit knowledgeable but of limited value regardless) of how a driver may or may not perform with little real world application evaluation.
Why no mention of the staging and imaging advantages that this driver could offer? Why no mention of how to make it work in a true wideband application in an actual vehicle?

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Old 07-24-2012   #71
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Default Re: Hybrid Audio L3SE

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Can someone please point me in the direction of the actual response and THD plot graphics?
Hopefully they are available- it would be the only thing useful in a 3-page pissing match that I just waded through. Lots of conjecture and theory (albeit knowledgeable but of limited value regardless) of how a driver may or may not perform with little real world application evaluation.
Why no mention of the staging and imaging advantages that this driver could offer? Why no mention of how to make it work in a true wideband application in an actual vehicle?

I would imagine that is because "staging" and "imaging" are a function of an entire system and method of driver and equipment selection, installation and tuning. Those things are all different in every vehicle so it gives no real point of reference. In addition, they are subjective listening descriptions and since we all hear things differently and have different preferences, they wouldn't be very useful. The real world data measurements of the drivers is what's needed.
That said...where the hell are the measurements ??

I'd really like to see how these things performed. I've been after a HAT L4 sounding driver with more top end in a smaller profile (3") since the beginning. Please post the data back up so we can reference it!

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Old 07-24-2012   #72
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Someone stole the pics and put them on their eBay ad. So I took then down.

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Old 09-12-2012   #73
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Hmmm, where have all the test results gone?
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Old 09-12-2012   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Spyne~ View Post
Hmmm, where have all the test results gone?
Dude. One post above yours. Read it.

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